The First Of Many Questions For You Re Rescue, Breeding,owning Dogs

[Greytmate]

BTW, I don't think concrete is a requirement. As long as the surfaces are hygienic and washable. The set-up Mita described should easily meet any codes that I am aware of.

[Steve]

Greytmate. Im not sure why you have taken on such a tone in your replies to me and I'm not interested in setting up a code for hobby breeders - Ive already done that.

Im interested in getting feedback and opinions and stimulating discussion on some issues relating to various proposals which have been put in play by the RSPCA within their puppy farmer policy paper and current state codes of practice. Given the choice dogs wouldn't live on concrete floors by choice and I dont think its healthy for them and that has nothing whatever to do with anthorpomorphic values. I cant think of any animal who would flourish and have a good quality of life living on concrete floors.Concrete floors which are not cleaned properly have just as many if not more potential health issues especially if they never see sunlight as any surface.

You seem to miss the point within these current proposals and state codes there is no distinction between a hobby breeder and a large scale commercial breeder and if your only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning then all of the arguments against caged birds and intensive piggeries would never have begun.

Well then push for reform for the code to make the distinction between hobby and business breeders.

I don't think you have been reading my posts if you think my "only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning "

What do you have to say about enrichment? Or do you think the real issue is about concrete?

If its O.K. with you Id like to discuss enrichment at another time because so far its barely touched on in any code or proposal. Before I can dO exactly what you advise and push for law reform

for the codes to make a distinction between a hobby and a business breeder we need to clarify the difference - don't we? Therefore asking what people think defines a puppy farmer would be the first step - wouldn't it?

[Greytmate]

If its O.K. with you Id like to discuss enrichment at another time because so far its barely touched on in any code or proposal. Before I can dO exactly what you advise and push for law reform

for the codes to make a distinction between a hobby and a business breeder we need to clarify the difference - don't we? Therefore asking what people think defines a puppy farmer would be the first step - wouldn't it?

People are not either hobby breeders or puppy farmers. Many would fall in between. Too many dogs to keep them all living in the house, too few to deserve that most hated and emotion-ridden label of "Puppy Farmer".

[mita]

push for reform for the code to make the distinction between hobby and business breeders.

I don't think you have been reading my posts if you think my "only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning "

What do you have to say about enrichment?

I was pleasantly surprised to see an article in the July 2010 'Australian House & Garden' magazine which made a distinction between breeders whose hobby was to develop a pure breed to its best as well as caring for the dogs' welfare AND those who were only into breeding as a means of selling dogs for profit:

'The breeders I've interviewed for this column have been helpful, enthusiastic and, above all, very caring about their animals. But, sadly, there are unscrupulous breeders out there. Given that prices for pedigree pups can be $1000 or more, it's not surprising that that so-called 'puppy farmers' are active in the market. By forcing their bitches to constantly turn out litters, failing to keep adequate records to prevent inbreeding, and keeping their animals in crowded unsanitary conditions, puppy farmers not only damage the individual dogs they breed, but also the breed itself. So how can you avoid supporting this obnoxious trade?'

The remaining paragraphs are excellent, too....telling puppy buyers exactly what to look out for... & so how.to spot a good breeder. And where to get contacts to search....Kennel Clubs & Breed Clubs.

Only thing missing, was to emphasize that dogs & puppies need enrichment & socialisation (according to deveopmental level).

But the author, Roger Crosthwaite is to be congratulated on getting this kind of quality information into mainstream media for the general public to read.

Edited June 29, 2010 by mita

[Steve]

If its O.K. with you Id like to discuss enrichment at another time because so far its barely touched on in any code or proposal. Before I can dO exactly what you advise and push for law reform

for the codes to make a distinction between a hobby and a business breeder we need to clarify the difference - don't we? Therefore asking what people think defines a puppy farmer would be the first step - wouldn't it?

People are not either hobby breeders or puppy farmers. Many would fall in between. Too many dogs to keep them all living in the house, too few to deserve that most hated and emotion-ridden label of "Puppy Farmer".

Yes I agree so how do you go to work on having one code which is best for the dogs regardless of how many? Up until now they are all written as if we have 100 dogs .

The one thats in play at the moment via the RSPCA wants every breeder to list their addresses on a website as part of a mandatory code. Might be O.K. for a person who has kennels and staff but what if your kennel is your lounge room?

[kinsella]

So should every breeder breed for the betterment of the breed? What is the issue with breeding to provide companion animals to people who want them and will care for them? I don't think that makes someone a puppy farmer.

Breeding for the betterment of the breed is in all CoE. Or at least, maintaining the standards they already have in their dogs. I don't see that breeding for a companion animal market should exclude aiming for better dogs. A responsible breeder should do both.

JMHO

[mita]

BTW, I don't think concrete is a requirement. As long as the surfaces are hygienic and washable. The set-up Mita described should easily meet any codes that I am aware of.

You've met one of the graduates from that breeder's set-up. Your small dog tester for the Greyhound Adoption Program. Angel.

Ex Aus Ch in showring, then desexed pet....who took all the strange greys & strange people in her stride.

As another poster said....those breeders who tick all the right boxes, produce purebred dogs that can gracefully live in many worlds.

[merijigs]

So should every breeder breed for the betterment of the breed? What is the issue with breeding to provide companion animals to people who want them and will care for them? I don't think that makes someone a puppy farmer.

OMG I Do! Far and away the majority of puppies produced from the breeding plans of registered breeders wind up as loved companion animals i.e. pets. It is not realistic that all ANKC registered puppies are retained by breeders or sold to conformation and dog sport exhibitors. Even the most magnificent Grand Champion showdog is a pet first and a showdog second. There may be exceptions but I'd warrant they are very, very few. There are enough registered puppies produced to meet society's needs for companion dogs. If you dont' agree with this, then why not support registered breeders most of whom actually believe in and adhere to their State Canine Authority's Code of Ethics/Practice for members.

[merijigs]

If its O.K. with you Id like to discuss enrichment at another time because so far its barely touched on in any code or proposal. Before I can dO exactly what you advise and push for law reform

for the codes to make a distinction between a hobby and a business breeder we need to clarify the difference - don't we? Therefore asking what people think defines a puppy farmer would be the first step - wouldn't it?

People are not either hobby breeders or puppy farmers. Many would fall in between. Too many dogs to keep them all living in the house, too few to deserve that most hated and emotion-ridden label of "Puppy Farmer".

Yes I agree so how do you go to work on having one code which is best for the dogs regardless of how many? Up until now they are all written as if we have 100 dogs .

The one thats in play at the moment via the RSPCA wants every breeder to list their addresses on a website as part of a mandatory code. Might be O.K. for a person who has kennels and staff but what if your kennel is your lounge room?

I just don't agree! To me, "hobby breeder" means someone who breeds dogs as a leisure activity pursued for pleasure. "Puppy farmer" is a hated and emotion-ridden label and we all know those places which deserve our disgust for their cruel and neglectful practices. To me, both these groups are unethical in the lack of value they place on the contributions of generations of purebred dogs and decades of careful choices by their breeders to produce animals of consistent type with all the mental and physical characteristics of distinct breeds.

That said, I don't feel that registered breeders are very well served by their State Canine Councils and the Australian National Kennel Club. From my observations of 10+ years they do very little to 'sort the wheat from the chaff' amongst registered breeders. These agencies retain their authority only because they hold and maintain the pedigree records of purebred dogs in Australia. In theory, this task could be handed over to any organisation, hopefully one with more stringent and enforceable ethical requirements for members. MDBA anyone?

[Cosmolo]

I do support registered breeders merijegs?? I see breeding well socialised, healthy, sound, dogs (in body and mind) for the pet market an admirable goal though.

I would also challenge whether there are enough registered breeders pups to meet demand- i don't think thats the case.

[Sheridan]

At our Monash visit Kate told us that her puppies did get cuddles, training, comfort, vet care [she is a vet] , grooming, socialising, health testing.

no over breeding, no cross breeding, she complained about a push for keeping them in pens with concrete floors in laws and codes of conduct , they have an adequate diet, adequate bedding,adequate care overall.

She is 100% with no shadow of a doubt a puppy farmer and freely admits this.So the fact is that a puppy farmer can cover all of these things. There are many things in there that cant be measured and Ive known people who only have the occasional litter who don't cover all of the bases anyway.

Um, but she produces oodles. Since when is that not crossbreeding?

[Fevah]

I do support registered breeders merijegs?? I see breeding well socialised, healthy, sound, dogs (in body and mind) for the pet market an admirable goal though.

I would also challenge whether there are enough registered breeders pups to meet demand- i don't think thats the case.

If it is the case it is only because a large percentage of the population remains clueless about shelters and rescue groups or people are so selfish that they would rather buy a puppy (without knowing anything about its origin) then give an older dog a second chance at life.

Unless you are interested in a very rare breed or in the 'flavour of the month' I believe it is fairly easy to obtain a pup from a registered breeder (as long as you yourself are believed to be suitable candidate for their puppy). This is made even easier by the fact that most breeders are happy to fly dogs interstate or overseas. Responsible dog owners also don't mind waiting a few months or even a few years for the perfect dog to come along.

Why should we create a 'companion animal' market for people too lazy to research which breed would best suit their lifestyle or so obsessed about the 'puppy stage' in a dog's life that they will never consider adopting (even though there are plenty of pups in shelters too)?

[goldchow]

In our research before attending the Building Better Dogs seminar at Monash the statistics were 600,000 pups produced in Australia annually with an estimated 9 to 10% from registered breeders.

The Chief Steward of the CCC(Q) was always very vocal on the fact that the Canine Controls are only a registry for purebred dogs and nothing more.

[merijigs]

I do support registered breeders merijegs?? I see breeding well socialised, healthy, sound, dogs (in body and mind) for the pet market an admirable goal though.

I would also challenge whether there are enough registered breeders pups to meet demand- i don't think thats the case.

If it is the case it is only because a large percentage of the population remains clueless about shelters and rescue groups or people are so selfish that they would rather buy a puppy (without knowing anything about its origin) then give an older dog a second chance at life.

Unless you are interested in a very rare breed or in the 'flavour of the month' I believe it is fairly easy to obtain a pup from a registered breeder (as long as you yourself are believed to be suitable candidate for their puppy). This is made even easier by the fact that most breeders are happy to fly dogs interstate or overseas. Responsible dog owners also don't mind waiting a few months or even a few years for the perfect dog to come along.

Why should we create a 'companion animal' market for people too lazy to research which breed would best suit their lifestyle or so obsessed about the 'puppy stage' in a dog's life that they will never consider adopting (even though there are plenty of pups in shelters too)?

Thank you Fevah. You get my point and I agree with your post completely.

Personally, I would give a registered puppy to the right home if it was indeed the right home. Money is no part of the placement decision for me. This attitude is the pinacle of what it means to be worthy of the name "breeder" IMO

[Sheridan]

Thank you Fevah. You get my point and I agree with your post completely.

Personally, I would give a registered puppy to the right home if it was indeed the right home. Money is no part of the placement decision for me. This attitude is the pinacle of what it means to be worthy of the name "breeder" IMO

And I'll point out that merijigs has actually done this so it's not just words to her. Not a puppy but she rehomed her Mini girl to me, for which I will be eternally grateful for her trust.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Sheridan

[Fevah]

In our research before attending the Building Better Dogs seminar at Monash the statistics were 600,000 pups produced in Australia annually with an estimated 9 to 10% from registered breeders.

The Chief Steward of the CCC(Q) was always very vocal on the fact that the Canine Controls are only a registry for purebred dogs and nothing more.

And how many of these 600,000 are now in shelters across Australia, have been put to sleep or live in conditions that are detrimental to their health and well-being?

[Staranais]

In our research before attending the Building Better Dogs seminar at Monash the statistics were 600,000 pups produced in Australia annually with an estimated 9 to 10% from registered breeders.

The Chief Steward of the CCC(Q) was always very vocal on the fact that the Canine Controls are only a registry for purebred dogs and nothing more.

And how many of these 600,000 are now in shelters across Australia, have been put to sleep or live in conditions that are detrimental to their health and well-being?

And I wonder what % of the dogs that end up in the shelter system are from registered breeders vs non registered breeders? (That's a genuine question, BTW - I know ethical registered breeders make an effort to keep tabs on any pups they produce and ensure they don't end up in the pound, but I also know that unfortunately not all registered breeders are ethical).

[Steve]

At our Monash visit Kate told us that her puppies did get cuddles, training, comfort, vet care [she is a vet] , grooming, socialising, health testing.

no over breeding, no cross breeding, she complained about a push for keeping them in pens with concrete floors in laws and codes of conduct , they have an adequate diet, adequate bedding,adequate care overall.

She is 100% with no shadow of a doubt a puppy farmer and freely admits this.So the fact is that a puppy farmer can cover all of these things. There are many things in there that cant be measured and Ive known people who only have the occasional litter who don't cover all of the bases anyway.

Um, but she produces oodles. Since when is that not crossbreeding?

Yep you're right I read it in breeding - she cross breeds alright. Sorry about that.

Julie

[Steve]

In our research before attending the Building Better Dogs seminar at Monash the statistics were 600,000 pups produced in Australia annually with an estimated 9 to 10% from registered breeders.

The Chief Steward of the CCC(Q) was always very vocal on the fact that the Canine Controls are only a registry for purebred dogs and nothing more.

And how many of these 600,000 are now in shelters across Australia, have been put to sleep or live in conditions that are detrimental to their health and well-being?

Dont quote me because Im running on memory but I think around 250,000 are put down each year.

[Little Gifts]

I do support registered breeders merijegs?? I see breeding well socialised, healthy, sound, dogs (in body and mind) for the pet market an admirable goal though.

I would also challenge whether there are enough registered breeders pups to meet demand- i don't think thats the case.

There were 96 litters of staffy puppies listed on DOL last month or maybe the month before. That is just one breed of dog and only here on DOL. Surely that is plenty when you add it to the total of dogs needlessly pts each year as well? If people have to plan and wait for a dog rather than impulse buy then that is a good thing in my book given how many years that dog will be needing care for.