The First Of Many Questions For You Re Rescue, Breeding,owning Dogs

[dogdogdog]

One look into the eyes of a dog at a puppy farmer tells it all. The sadness. And no life left in them.

Look into the eyes of the dogs that most registered have. Love of life and happiness.

Huge difference and that is only a beginning.

[~Anne~]

Question.Definition of a Puppy Farmer.

In under 50 words - please describe what you believe defines a puppy farmer in difference to anyone else who breeds puppies.

A puppy farmer is someone who breeds large scale purely for business gain. An operation that would be considered to be a 'commercial' operation/business.

[Steve]

At our Monash visit Kate told us that her puppies did get cuddles, training, comfort, vet care [she is a vet] , grooming, socialising, health testing.

no over breeding, no cross breeding, she complained about a push for keeping them in pens with concrete floors in laws and codes of conduct , they have an adequate diet, adequate bedding,adequate care overall.

She is 100% with no shadow of a doubt a puppy farmer and freely admits this.So the fact is that a puppy farmer can cover all of these things. There are many things in there that cant be measured and Ive known people who only have the occasional litter who don't cover all of the bases anyway.

Lets take a step back a minute. Jaxx's buddy used the term free range dogs and personally that's what I would think is a preferable way for a dog to live over being on concrete. Not because its easier to clean but because its better for the dog.

Are caged bird farms easier to keep clean than free range? I would think so. So should we force people who breed puppies to do what people who don't breed puppies think will be better for cleaning purposes?

My assumption is that someone who's livelihood is relying on sales for puppies has things which are within a breeder's control like worms, parvo and coccidia etc under control so why force them to keep their dogs as if they are in a pound or shelter? The risk for lepto or parvo is limited because they would all be vaccinated and isolated from outside bugs.Lets remember a dog is only in a whelping environment for a few weeks each year.I just think writing the codes of conduct the way they do is making everyone think this is how it should be done,giving them no room to provide a more natural living condition and Im not convinced it should be just given a tick and we move on.

A really big issue is that codes for breeding are designed for everyone involved in the activity of breeding dogs and cats and so there is no consideration between someone who breeds one litter a year and someone who breeds 100.

My argument is that these codes are coming together from people who don't breed dogs - their point of reference is from pounds, shelters and boarding kennels and thats not necessarily in breeding dog's best interests. Im going to double check some of this in the breeders forum too.

[Greytmate]

A really big issue is that codes for breeding are designed for everyone involved in the activity of breeding dogs and cats and so there is no consideration between someone who breeds one litter a year and someone who breeds 100.

Well there is in that local councils often don't enforce kennel regs if it is obvious that all dogs live in the house. We were given our permit without building any of the structures the permit required us to.

If the dogs don't live in the house, they are entitled to have a clean, dry, secure place to sleep.

Sorry Steve, I am not a fan of people that breed dogs on dirt. It is unhygenic.

There was a breeder here who bred in her normal backyard, the pups got parvo, and next year she bred another litter straight into that yard and came in here wondering why her puppies were so sick.

I wouldn't have an aviary on dirt and I wouldn't have baby pups on dirt either. Good kennel management means having a secure hygienic enclosure for every dog. While the dog can be allowed to free-range for exercise, the proper facilities should be there.

Do you vaccinate all your dogs for lepto? Does every breeder? What would you do exactly if you got lepto on your property and you hadn't provided dry enclosures for the dogs?

I can't see Code of Practice relating to hygiene being watered down, and I would hate to see that happen. Proper kennels are most suitable and comfortable for most dogs. Dogs live in kennels, cows live in paddocks.

And the construction of the kennel floor has nothing to do with the real issue, which is the enrichment.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Greytmate

[Fevah]

What Cosmolo is talking about is a subject that we are rapidly learning more about and it goes to the very heart of dog welfare and producing good dogs. I would have no problem with dogs being kept in their hundreds in cages on concrete if the exercise, enrichment and socialisation needs are fully met.

I think sometimes we can be a little anthropomorphic in our views of kennels. We don't have to live in them. :D

May I ask why?

I've always considered a dog a companion animal not a 'herding' animal so how is living with so many other canines a benefit to them? Will you still be ok with it if there are many different breeds in the same 'kennel'? How is someone going to be able to provide what is necessary for each and every different breed? How will you balance the needs of a toy group dog to that of a gun group dog?

This whole subject is so depressing.

How did dogs even end up in 'farms' - they aren't being used for their meat or their skin or anything they can produce and they've been 'man's best friend' for thousands of years so where did this shift come from; this belief that they can be put into the same category as sheep and cows etc.?

I myself am guilty of accepting and not really thinking about how farm animals are treated, that they are there for my use and yet it horrifies me to think of dogs in the same way...how hypocritical of me!

I don't think there is an easy answer but I do appreciate that this thread/forum has opened my mind to the many issues affecting the canine world and forced me to confront uncomfortable thoughts, feelings and issues.

I think the biggest difference between registered, ethical breeders and puppy farmers is socialisation and enrichment. One does provide, the other does not.

It also baffles me that when buying products a large percentage of people are happy to do their research and yet so many don't bother when looking for an animal that could be living with them and their family for up to 15 years.

[Fevah]

At our Monash visit Kate told us that her puppies did get cuddles, training, comfort, vet care [she is a vet] , grooming, socialising, health testing.

no over breeding, no cross breeding, she complained about a push for keeping them in pens with concrete floors in laws and codes of conduct , they have an adequate diet, adequate bedding,adequate care overall.

She is 100% with no shadow of a doubt a puppy farmer and freely admits this.So the fact is that a puppy farmer can cover all of these things. There are many things in there that cant be measured and Ive known people who only have the occasional litter who don't cover all of the bases anyway.

:D

So did she say WHY she is a puppy farmer? If she says she provides what she does, how can there possibly be any profit involved?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

greytmate would a solution be to have bitches on grass/dirt unless they were in whelp then they would be on concrete until the pups were old enough to run on grass, ie after vac's?

Edited June 29, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[Steve]

A really big issue is that codes for breeding are designed for everyone involved in the activity of breeding dogs and cats and so there is no consideration between someone who breeds one litter a year and someone who breeds 100.

Well there is in that local councils often don't enforce kennel regs if it is obvious that all dogs live in the house. We were given our permit without building any of the structures the permit required us to.

If the dogs don't live in the house, they are entitled to have a clean, dry, secure place to sleep.

Sorry Steve, I am not a fan of people that breed dogs on dirt. It is unhygenic.

There was a breeder here who bred in her normal backyard, the pups got parvo, and next year she bred another litter straight into that yard and came in here wondering why her puppies were so sick.

I wouldn't have an aviary on dirt and I wouldn't have baby pups on dirt either. Good kennel management means having a secure hygienic enclosure for every dog. While the dog can be allowed to free-range for exercise, the proper facilities should be there.

Do you vaccinate all your dogs for lepto? Does every breeder? What would you do exactly if you got lepto on your property and you hadn't provided dry enclosures for the dogs?

I can't see Code of Practice relating to hygiene being watered down, and I would hate to see that happen. Proper kennels are most suitable and comfortable for most dogs. Dogs live in kennels, cows live in paddocks.

And the construction of the kennel floor has nothing to do with the real issue, which is the enrichment.

Im not saying anyone should necessarily breed dogs on dirt.

Im saying that the way the codes are written it encourages people who breed dogs to keep them in concreted pens all of their lives and as a breeder I would prefer to have my dogs which I have for breeding living in an environment which more likely resembles a back yard.

Every breeder who had a huge breeding establishment where lepto maybe a threat would be a moron if they could vaccinate for something and didnt.

I would never have anything on my property and not have dry enclosures.

I dont agree with you proper kennels are not -in my opinion- MOST suitable and most comfortable for most dogs. Its obvious that within this discussion you and I are coming from a different start place as far as how breeding dogs are managed by breeders who care whats best for the dogs over all else.

[Agility Dogs]

O.K.

The MDBA have some things coming together to push for reform with breeding and rescue and to this end Id like to get some ideas and feedback as Im working through it all.

This is the first of several - there are no right or wrong answers - Im just after what you think for now.

Question.Definition of a Puppy Farmer.

In under 50 words - please describe what you believe defines a puppy farmer in difference to anyone else who breeds puppies.

Without emotion -

A business owner who breeds dogs on a commercial scale with the sole aim of making profit.

Anything else is just describing the methods they use.

[Wazzat Xolo]

A puppy Farmer in my eyes is

ANY breeder (whether registered or not) who produces puppies with NO breeding program,

Very scant care and attention to puppy placement,

Poor/Nil health testing and poor/nil socialisation programs.

No follow up after care from the breeder.

After all if you are not breeding to better the breed ( which would generally include breeding a puppy for oneself WHY breed?

:D

[Steve]

O.K.

The MDBA have some things coming together to push for reform with breeding and rescue and to this end Id like to get some ideas and feedback as Im working through it all.

This is the first of several - there are no right or wrong answers - Im just after what you think for now.

Question.Definition of a Puppy Farmer.

In under 50 words - please describe what you believe defines a puppy farmer in difference to anyone else who breeds puppies.

Without emotion -

A business owner who breeds dogs on a commercial scale with the sole aim of making profit.

Anything else is just describing the methods they use.

What is a commercial scale?

[Greytmate]

What Cosmolo is talking about is a subject that we are rapidly learning more about and it goes to the very heart of dog welfare and producing good dogs. I would have no problem with dogs being kept in their hundreds in cages on concrete if the exercise, enrichment and socialisation needs are fully met.

I think sometimes we can be a little anthropomorphic in our views of kennels. We don't have to live in them. :D

May I ask why?

Yes, I should explain a little better.

I don't mean keeping hundreds of dogs in a cage. I mean keeping any number of dogs each in their own separate kennel or crate (or possibly paired up) in the interests of health, safety and good kennel management.

A small number of dogs can be looked after in a home, but when the numbers exceed what is appropriate in a house, kennels ensure that dogs are safe.

Every dog is entitled to be checked daily for health, and kennels mean that a dog and its surroundings can be checked for any problems before the dog is allowed out onto dirt or to mix with other dogs. If you have dogs just out in yards, you may not see problems like blood or diarrhoea or parasites straight away, and by the time you do, the whole dirt area may be infested or infected. You may have trouble knowing which dog has the problem too.

Enrichment will be different for each breed and each individual, and dogs can certainly be taken out of their enclosures for that. Some enrichment can be given while a dog is in en enclosure too. But just letting them roam around a property isn't enrichment.

I have no problems with yards being attached to kennels so the dogs can easily be let out into them. I have a problem with dogs being kept in those dirt yards all of the time with no clean, dry, washable sleeping area.

[Agility Dogs]

O.K.

The MDBA have some things coming together to push for reform with breeding and rescue and to this end Id like to get some ideas and feedback as Im working through it all.

This is the first of several - there are no right or wrong answers - Im just after what you think for now.

Question.Definition of a Puppy Farmer.

In under 50 words - please describe what you believe defines a puppy farmer in difference to anyone else who breeds puppies.

Without emotion -

A business owner who breeds dogs on a commercial scale with the sole aim of making profit.

Anything else is just describing the methods they use.

What is a commercial scale?

IMO a commercial scale is anything where there is intent to profit because of the economies it generates and the operation is larger than what will allow them to give each indivdual dog the care (physical and developmental) that it needs.

[Greytmate]

Im not saying anyone should necessarily breed dogs on dirt.

Im saying that the way the codes are written it encourages people who breed dogs to keep them in concreted pens all of their lives and as a breeder I would prefer to have my dogs which I have for breeding living in an environment which more likely resembles a back yard.

Every breeder who had a huge breeding establishment where lepto maybe a threat would be a moron if they could vaccinate for something and didnt.

I would never have anything on my property and not have dry enclosures.

I dont agree with you proper kennels are not -in my opinion- MOST suitable and most comfortable for most dogs. Its obvious that within this discussion you and I are coming from a different start place as far as how breeding dogs are managed by breeders who care whats best for the dogs over all else.

I don't see codes as encouragement to do anything. I see them as minimum basic requirements. Enrichment should feature more strongly in those codes.

I am not interested in what a dog's environment resembles and the fluffy feelings that go with the idea of lovely puppies gambolling around the daisies in the garden.

I am interested in dogs being safe and disease free. I am interested in their minds and bodies being stimulated in an appropriate way.

You water down hygiene laws and what you will get is properties featuring mud, chicken wire and weeds, and a whole lot of filthy dogs. If there is no requirement to provide minimum welfare requirements, there are people that will jump at the chance of rigging up some more runs without having to spend tens of thousands on concrete and drainage, and throwing some more dogs in them.

If you want to talk about a Code of Practice especially set up for little hobby breeders, you go right ahead. Don't put it under the title of "What is a puppy Farmer?"

But the commercial reality is that we do have large dog farms to meet market demand, and I think it is inappropriate for the laws governing those businesses to be changed, because of an anthorpomorphic notion that dogs don't like concrete floors or living behind wire.

[Fevah]

What Cosmolo is talking about is a subject that we are rapidly learning more about and it goes to the very heart of dog welfare and producing good dogs. I would have no problem with dogs being kept in their hundreds in cages on concrete if the exercise, enrichment and socialisation needs are fully met.

I think sometimes we can be a little anthropomorphic in our views of kennels. We don't have to live in them. :D

May I ask why?

Yes, I should explain a little better.

I don't mean keeping hundreds of dogs in a cage. I mean keeping any number of dogs each in their own separate kennel or crate (or possibly paired up) in the interests of health, safety and good kennel management.

A small number of dogs can be looked after in a home, but when the numbers exceed what is appropriate in a house, kennels ensure that dogs are safe.

Every dog is entitled to be checked daily for health, and kennels mean that a dog and its surroundings can be checked for any problems before the dog is allowed out onto dirt or to mix with other dogs. If you have dogs just out in yards, you may not see problems like blood or diarrhoea or parasites straight away, and by the time you do, the whole dirt area may be infested or infected. You may have trouble knowing which dog has the problem too.

Enrichment will be different for each breed and each individual, and dogs can certainly be taken out of their enclosures for that. Some enrichment can be given while a dog is in en enclosure too. But just letting them roam around a property isn't enrichment.

I have no problems with yards being attached to kennels so the dogs can easily be let out into them. I have a problem with dogs being kept in those dirt yards all of the time with no clean, dry, washable sleeping area.

Thanks for that.

Would you say this type of 'kennel' is appropriate for larger scale breeding? If so, what do you think the maximum allowed number of dogs should be?

[Greytmate]

Thanks for that.

Would you say this type of 'kennel' is appropriate for larger scale breeding? If so, what do you think the maximum allowed number of dogs should be?

Maximum number of dogs should be dependant of the kennel owner's ability to provide appropriate enrichment and accommodation for each dog. At the moment there is no obligation to provide enrichment, only an obligation to provide the correct accommodation. So it the addition of enrichment that is needed to the codes, not the removal of anything.

[mita]

I don't mean keeping hundreds of dogs in a cage. I mean keeping any number of dogs each in their own separate kennel or crate (or possibly paired up) in the interests of health, safety and good kennel management.

A small number of dogs can be looked after in a home, but when the numbers exceed what is appropriate in a house, kennels ensure that dogs are safe.

I'm going O/T.....but I'm impressed with how a Qld breeder of my favoured breed has set up her 'kennels'. It's a breed which thrives well with free access to a house AND a yard to play in.

She has a row of good quality cedar children's playhouses. They have steps, door, windows & a front verandah. Each 'house' is set on a little fenced block. She told me she selects which little group of dogs will call each house 'home' according to how they seem to naturally bond with each other.

It gives her & the dogs the best of all worlds. She can clean them well....& easily notices anything untoward with each little group. And the dogs get used to the aspects of the home environment....in smaller form. Steps....an inside & outside, for doing different things (like sleeping & toileting). Even a little front deck to watch out on the passing parade. Great spots to welcome human visitors into for socialisation. Of course, there's another well-fenced open area, where all the dogs can have 'run-free' time. And, they also have turns at being inside the main house, getting used to household smells & noises.

This 'system' is ticking every box in breeding/raising/ & keeping little purebred dogs to gracefully become both companion & show dogs.

I'm presently copying her idea, in suburbia, to combine a garden 'shed' with a 'yard' enclosure built by a cat enclosure co (who does all the AWL work). That will be a 'safe' place for our 2 small pet dogs & the puss, when tradesmen are working at our suburban house.

Edited June 29, 2010 by mita

[Cosmolo]

So should every breeder breed for the betterment of the breed? What is the issue with breeding to provide companion animals to people who want them and will care for them? I don't think that makes someone a puppy farmer.

[Steve]

Im not saying anyone should necessarily breed dogs on dirt.

Im saying that the way the codes are written it encourages people who breed dogs to keep them in concreted pens all of their lives and as a breeder I would prefer to have my dogs which I have for breeding living in an environment which more likely resembles a back yard.

Every breeder who had a huge breeding establishment where lepto maybe a threat would be a moron if they could vaccinate for something and didnt.

I would never have anything on my property and not have dry enclosures.

I dont agree with you proper kennels are not -in my opinion- MOST suitable and most comfortable for most dogs. Its obvious that within this discussion you and I are coming from a different start place as far as how breeding dogs are managed by breeders who care whats best for the dogs over all else.

I don't see codes as encouragement to do anything. I see them as minimum basic requirements. Enrichment should feature more strongly in those codes.

I am not interested in what a dog's environment resembles and the fluffy feelings that go with the idea of lovely puppies gambolling around the daisies in the garden.

I am interested in dogs being safe and disease free. I am interested in their minds and bodies being stimulated in an appropriate way.

You water down hygiene laws and what you will get is properties featuring mud, chicken wire and weeds, and a whole lot of filthy dogs. If there is no requirement to provide minimum welfare requirements, there are people that will jump at the chance of rigging up some more runs without having to spend tens of thousands on concrete and drainage, and throwing some more dogs in them.

If you want to talk about a Code of Practice especially set up for little hobby breeders, you go right ahead. Don't put it under the title of "What is a puppy Farmer?"

But the commercial reality is that we do have large dog farms to meet market demand, and I think it is inappropriate for the laws governing those businesses to be changed, because of an anthorpomorphic notion that dogs don't like concrete floors or living behind wire.

Greytmate. Im not sure why you have taken on such a tone in your replies to me and I'm not interested in setting up a code for hobby breeders - Ive already done that.

Im interested in getting feedback and opinions and stimulating discussion on some issues relating to various proposals which have been put in play by the RSPCA within their puppy farmer policy paper and current state codes of practice. Given the choice dogs wouldn't live on concrete floors by choice and I dont think its healthy for them and that has nothing whatever to do with anthorpomorphic values. I cant think of any animal who would flourish and have a good quality of life living on concrete floors.Concrete floors which are not cleaned properly have just as many if not more potential health issues especially if they never see sunlight as any surface.

You seem to miss the point within these current proposals and state codes there is no distinction between a hobby breeder and a large scale commercial breeder and if your only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning then all of the arguments against caged birds and intensive piggeries would never have begun.

[Greytmate]

Greytmate. Im not sure why you have taken on such a tone in your replies to me and I'm not interested in setting up a code for hobby breeders - Ive already done that.

Im interested in getting feedback and opinions and stimulating discussion on some issues relating to various proposals which have been put in play by the RSPCA within their puppy farmer policy paper and current state codes of practice. Given the choice dogs wouldn't live on concrete floors by choice and I dont think its healthy for them and that has nothing whatever to do with anthorpomorphic values. I cant think of any animal who would flourish and have a good quality of life living on concrete floors.Concrete floors which are not cleaned properly have just as many if not more potential health issues especially if they never see sunlight as any surface.

You seem to miss the point within these current proposals and state codes there is no distinction between a hobby breeder and a large scale commercial breeder and if your only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning then all of the arguments against caged birds and intensive piggeries would never have begun.

Well then push for reform for the code to make the distinction between hobby and business breeders.

I don't think you have been reading my posts if you think my "only argument for a dog being confined in pens on concrete is because its easier for cleaning "

What do you have to say about enrichment? Or do you think the real issue is about concrete?