The First Of Many Questions For You Re Rescue, Breeding,owning Dogs

[Staranais]

For me, a puppy farmer is a breeder who maximises their profits at the expense of their dog's welfare.

I don't care if breeders do, or don't, make a profit. But if a breeder neglect health testing, titling the parents, puppy socialisation, breeds their dogs too often for optimal health, breeds dogs that really shouldn't be bred, in order to make more money - then that's a puppy farmer to me.

I also don't think that all bad breeders are puppy farmers. Some breeders may breed poorly from motives other than money (ignorance, kennel blindness, fear of losing valuable breeding stock if they take their heads out of the sand & health test, etc). To me, that's not a puppy farmer, though, that's just a bad breeder.

Good topic, Steve.

[kinsella]

To me, the one true defining characteristic of a puppy farmer is the short-sightedness ie they are not breeding to improve the breed or replace their own dogs but as a cash crop. They deal in "now" whereas every decent breeder I know is generally looking three generations or more to the future and planning on the strengthening of their lines and improving the quality of their dogs.

[Steve]

Yes I know the yards in the photo have no shelter but what if they did? I would prefer to see my dogs living with grass to run on than only concrete.

Why do puppies need hard floors? Why do all dogs need a sleeping area with a concrete floor?

[OSoSwift]

I like those yards Steve. If they had an insulated house with nice comfy warm bedding and an area that is a substant size ie fit a few beds and room for their water and a little bit, rather than just a kennel size house, then they would be good. I would prefer dogs to have that kind of space as opposed to a concrete run. However they would still need to get out of them.

I would have a hard floor on the bottom of the house so that it is built up a little and less likely to flood or have rising damp. IT can also be cleaned and sand floor tend to help fleas and other pesties to breed.

Edited as posted at the same time

Edited June 28, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[OSoSwift]

I am not convinced why puppies need hard floors???? Mine do get hard floors because they come inside, but I would have thought that solid hard floors would not be as beneficial as floors that are uneven, have differing covering and are more natural would be more suitable.

I would like the dogs to have a combination of Kennels inside a kennel complex for night and day yards like those above.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Greytmate]

Steve hard surfaces are needed for disease control.

What are you going to do if a dog comes down with lepto? Put them all in your laundry for a week while you wait for your paddocks to dry out?

Keep your dogs on grass all the time if you are prepared to remove all dogs from the property in case of disease. But I would expect breeders, or anyone kennelling more than a handful of dogs to consider the long-term ramifications of diseases or parasites on their property and keep the dogs on surfaces that can be properly cleaned.

[schnauzer]

Hmm... I would love to say, get them desexed and rehome to people who will love them and spoil them for the rest of their life. It's going to take very special people who are willing to take them in to look after them and be patient with them to make them better.

But, realistically and sadly, depending on the age and living in a cage all her life.. she is going to have serious behaviour and health issues, sometimes the best for her is to PTS and let her go over to rainbow bridge

CH EW,

We have rescued puppy farm bitches/dogs. Bitches can be rehabilitated if they are in correct care. It is definitely not a job for the faint hearted, it is incredibly slow, repetitive training, and some dogs/bitches take a long time to become somewhat of a "normal" dog. But it can be done.

The dogs we have rescued were overbred, severely underweight, unsocialised, little/no vet care, unvaccinated, matted to the skin with chronic skin and ear infections, mouth infections, hernias and the list goes on.

[shmoo]

Yards are lovely. Nice big yards with grass, shelter and bedding. But that doesn't actually provide any enrichment. I know of dogs that are "kennel mad" even though they are kept in grassed yards.

[flatchat]

For me a puppy farmer is someone who 'churns' out puppies often with too many bitches having too many litters. Someone who often isn't happy for potential buyers to come and look at their set up.

Someone who isn't really breeding for the betterment of the breed and who sees their bitches as cash cows to make money.

Edited June 28, 2010 by flatchat

[noisymina]

Just a thought.

You say we can't control the number of dogs a breeder has.

Well, yes we can.

Simply by ENFORCING current council registration rules.

I pay rego fo mine .........NEVER seen a ranger in over 25 years - the only exception being when I called them once after doing their job for them.

This is only one example of people saing "We need more laws" when, in fact, current laws would go a long way to resolving an issues IF they were enforced.

More laws, no matter how good they are, are only as good as the will to enforce them.

Maybe a good start would be to see what we have now that just needs to be enforced?

[poodlefan]

Puppy farmer:

A person who breeds dogs for the sole purpose of making money from puppy sales.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

For me, a puppy farmer is a breeder who maximises their profits at the expense of their dog's welfare.

I don't care if breeders do, or don't, make a profit. But if a breeder neglect health testing, titling the parents, puppy socialisation, breeds their dogs too often for optimal health, breeds dogs that really shouldn't be bred, in order to make more money - then that's a puppy farmer to me.

I also don't think that all bad breeders are puppy farmers. Some breeders may breed poorly from motives other than money (ignorance, kennel blindness, fear of losing valuable breeding stock if they take their heads out of the sand & health test, etc). To me, that's not a puppy farmer, though, that's just a bad breeder.

Good topic, Steve.

totally agree. i believe registered breeders have a right to make a profit.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Puppy farmer:

A person who breeds dogs for the sole purpose of making money from puppy sales.

another good one

[noisymina]

The gist of it seems to be whether or not the breeder breeds for the sole purpose of profit making.

If a registered breeder, breeds "ethically" with all the relevant tests, vet treatment etc and makes a profit, that is one thing.

If a breeder sets out solely to make a profit, does no testing, health checks, gets no vet attention (as needed) and still makes a loss (which is quite possible) that breeder is still a "farmer" as profit is the primary motivation.

So the "profit test" does not actually stand as a valid test in itself.

If it is used as a measure (test) of the breeders motivation to breed, it has potential as one measure that could be used in a list of quaifying "tests".

[westiemum]

Hmn... good topic Steve. For me its a puppy farmer is someone who comercially breeds companion dogs in livestock circumstances where socialisation is poor and the only motive is profit, rather than betterment of the breed.

As the owner of two puppy farm rescue dogs, I think the profit/non-profit (or altruistic), non-socialised/socialised and and livestock/companion animal dimensions are the clinchers for a definition.

ETS.

Edited June 28, 2010 by westiemum

[Christina]

No love, no cuddles, no training, no inside time, no comfort, no vet care, no grooming, no socialising, no health testing.

over breeding, cross breeding, living in pens or crates, inadequate diet, inadequate bedding, inadequate care overall.

Interbreeding. Sole purpose profit. Sell to anyone. No contact, aftercare, support once sold.

Best I can do in 50 words.

[Christina]

No love, no cuddles, no training, no inside time, no comfort, no vet care, no grooming, no socialising, no health testing.

over breeding, cross breeding, living in pens or crates, inadequate diet, inadequate bedding, inadequate care overall.

Interbreeding. Sole purpose profit. Sell to anyone. No contact, aftercare, support once sold.

Best I can do in 50 words.

[myValkyrie]

To me, the one true defining characteristic of a puppy farmer is the short-sightedness ie they are not breeding to improve the breed or replace their own dogs but as a cash crop. They deal in "now" whereas every decent breeder I know is generally looking three generations or more to the future and planning on the strengthening of their lines and improving the quality of their dogs.

+1 - I define a puppy farmer as someone who breeds with no thought/plan for the dogs their puppies wil become - the puppy itself is the end product

[Staranais]

If a breeder sets out solely to make a profit, does no testing, health checks, gets no vet attention (as needed) and still makes a loss (which is quite possible) that breeder is still a "farmer" as profit is the primary motivation.

So the "profit test" does not actually stand as a valid test in itself.

Yes, if the breeder is prepared to compromise the dogs' welfare in order to increase their profit, then I'd still call them a puppy farmer even if they don't actually end up making money. I'd just call them a "bad" puppy farmer, since they're not acheiving their business goals.

I don't think we need to worry about that category of puppy farmer so much though - in the sense that, if they're breeding in order to make a profit, and not actually making a profit, I'd guess they'd give up on the whole idea or go out of business pretty quickly. It's sort of self limiting. Whereas the ones that do make a profit are going to keep farming puppies, since it's working for them.

[pikespooches]

To me, the one true defining characteristic of a puppy farmer is the short-sightedness ie they are not breeding to improve the breed or replace their own dogs but as a cash crop. They deal in "now" whereas every decent breeder I know is generally looking three generations or more to the future and planning on the strengthening of their lines and improving the quality of their dogs.

+1 - I define a puppy farmer as someone who breeds with no thought/plan for the dogs their puppies wil become - the puppy itself is the end product

I would have thought the profit margin would be the end product!

What about breeders that breed for a particular thing in a breed and not the breed as a whole, eg for colour particularly a colour that is not accepted in the breed standar, (Although I personally feel no good dog should be a bad colour. But that is only my opinion there)

A person that cant get their puppies out fast enough and panic if they have not left the premises before they turn 8 weeks of age. I know of breeders that transport puppies dead on 6 weeks even overseas!

Also a breeder that does not breed to better the breed but to try and get what they already still have.

Edited June 28, 2010 by pikespooches