The First Of Many Questions For You Re Rescue, Breeding,owning Dogs

[Greytmate]

ok thinking about it more i believe it is about enrichment of the animal. if someone has thousands of dogs that is ok as long as each dog was enriched to an acceptable standard...and that standard must be defined.

Part of the issue for me is that all of their ideas and codes seem to come from what is best practice for boarding kennels. You know places where dogs stay for short periods but surely dogs who are there for ever need different environmental conditions to remain healthy?

I would have thought that a dog would need the appropriate enrichment regardless of whether it was boarded for a month or for five years. I can't really think what the difference would be. A dog doesn't know whether it is leaving the kennel that day or next year.

Is there an example you can give of a condition that would suit a short term dog but not a longer term dog? At what length of time do we say the dog is being kennelled long term and its needs are now different?

[Steve]

You say "canine reproduction specialists say its BETTER for the bitch to breed every season" Sorry, but you really have to substantiate this statement with citations to peer-reviewed, published research in academic journals for me to believe this is the proven truth.

No idea if that exists however, I have spoken with 4 different vets who specialise in canine reproduction, I have knowledge of another in Brisbane who is preparing a paper on it and Dr Hutchison a canine reproduction specialist in the states who feel there is no benefit to a bitch to not breed her on every season if she is in good condition. Personally Id love to see studies on this but who is going to do them? None of us can as its against our codes of conduct.

The scientific fact is that whether a bitch is pregnant or not she secretes the same hormones. In a pregnancy the hormones released which cause the whelping and subsequernt rearing of the pups counteract the hormones battering her uterus. If you hold her off before you mate her she is more likely to have fertility issues.

This is what Hutchison had to say http://www.doghobbyist.com/CanineRepro.html

I agree with merijigs.

Nothing on that link you posted says anything about breeding every season.

There are people in Australia breeding their bitches every season, and I would have thought that there would be a lot more than hormones battering a bitch's uterus with that level of intensive breeding.

From what I have seen, bitches that have been bred from too often tend not to last as long as other bitches. No studies done, just looking at the poor old things.

But I guess the high number of puppies produced by them proves their fertility is better than that of bitches not so intensively bred?

Welfare is the utmost concern to me. Fertility is a lower priority.

I disagree with those that prioritise fertility over welfare.

I agree with you that the people I know who have bred bitches every season would have to admit that they have less longevity than other bitches however, Id also say they are the type of peopel who havent givien a damn about the welfare of the bitch as well. The point is that until there are real studies done with all things equal no one can say for sure one way or the other. There's fair argumant to say it should be something the breeder should be able to make a decision on but we all know all breeders are not equal.

[Steve]

ok thinking about it more i believe it is about enrichment of the animal. if someone has thousands of dogs that is ok as long as each dog was enriched to an acceptable standard...and that standard must be defined.

Part of the issue for me is that all of their ideas and codes seem to come from what is best practice for boarding kennels. You know places where dogs stay for short periods but surely dogs who are there for ever need different environmental conditions to remain healthy?

I would have thought that a dog would need the appropriate enrichment regardless of whether it was boarded for a month or for five years. I can't really think what the difference would be. A dog doesn't know whether it is leaving the kennel that day or next year.

Is there an example you can give of a condition that would suit a short term dog but not a longer term dog? At what length of time do we say the dog is being kennelled long term and its needs are now different?

I have a hard time believing that having a dog on concrete for extended periods of time in penned areas and never being on dirt is a good thing for the dog.

[Dame Aussie]

In my mind a puppy farmer is somene who breeds dogs for no other reason than to make money. I am sure there are puppy farmers who think that their dogs are well cared for however often they have dogs living under shocking conditions. They do not health test their dogs, they sell their puppies to pet shops rather than to forever homes and they cross breed purposely for whatever is todays most popualr "Skoodlyoodle". Some of them are registered breeders.

[Steve]

Hmm for me a puppy farmer is someone who breeds for profit. As in they have multiple litters, usually on every heat. As long as bitch can have babies she stays. They do not heakth test of breed for the betterment of the breed. They usually have no contact after the puppy is sold - or very little. If a problems shows up, you get nothing from them.

People can be puppy farmers if they are registered breeders or not.

Puppy farmers usually do not put preventative health care high up on their list of priorities, and unfortunalty even health care for injuries or illnesses are not treated quickly or at all. The need to produce babies at the cheapest cost is the motivator.

Dogs are kept in runs - many of them and usually multiple dogs per pen. Keeping dogs in a run does not a puppy farmer make, many dogs are in dog runs and have a great life, but a PF's dogs usually do not leave unless maybe to go into another shed for whelping - if they are lucky.

I guess to me the mental picture I get is like an intensive piggery, line of concrete pens, very basic bedding and even if the pens are clean, many never leave those pens, the only contact they get is feed time. Even the best run puppy farm that was clean and the dogs well fed still is not right, Dogs are pack animals, not livestock. They do not do well confined to a concrete pen day in day out. they need companionship and exercise and stimulation, enrichment.

I know what I want to say, not sure I can say it very well though.

You did pretty well.

[Steve]

Lets have a look at what we cant do anything about.

We cant stop people breeding un registered purebred dogs or cross bred dogs.

We cant stop them from selling them wherever they want to whom they want for how much they want.

We cant restrict them on how many they own or how many they produce.

We cant stop them from bumping off the ones they don't want anymore.

[Greytmate]

I have a hard time believing that having a dog on concrete for extended periods of time in penned areas and never being on dirt is a good thing for the dog.

My dogs are never on dirt.

Hard surfaces are essential for cleanliness and disease control in kennels.

Soft surfaces are essential for exercising growing dogs.

I could give my comment of the proposed code if you want to post it. Would it hinder a breeder's obligation to provide the appropriate exercise for growing pups?

I don't really like the idea of dogs living on dirt. But they do need to be exercised properly for some time each day.

[Little Gifts]

OK so is this more about getting back to the basics of defining what a companion animal is - that would then determine what purpose it can be used for (which may not include it's sole purpose in their possession as making money for the owner). Then we could identify what the basic needs of a companion animal are (vaccinations, exercise, socialisation) which gives you a basic rights position to work from. This could also link back to legislation (is the Act the RSCPA work under the same across each state?). If a puppy farmer does not breach those basic rights then they could be considered within the law.

I know this might get me slapped but when I saw 96 litters of staffy puppies for sale on DOL a while back I started to think that registered breeder or not when is the market already saturated with enough dogs however they are bred? How do you identify and establish manageable breeding numbers given a percentage will always be abandoned or removed for mistreatment? If we woke up tomorrow what would our perfect world look like? How do we work backwards and attain that? I have always felt that if it was legal to breed and sell children in this country then there would be loads of pregnant woman out there with loads of other people making a buck from them, in a very similar keep the overheads down fashion. Difference is dogs don't get to decide whether to participate or when to stop. Not good enough.

[OSoSwift]

Lets have a look at what we cant do anything about.

We cant stop people breeding un registered purebred dogs or cross bred dogs.

We cant stop them from selling them wherever they want to whom they want for how much they want.

We cant restrict them on how many they own or how many they produce.

We cant stop them from bumping off the ones they don't want anymore.

OKay that is true, so what can we do something about???

I agree if dogs are in a more intensive situation than the average pet dog then dog runs that provide a surface that is easy to clean and sanitise is needed. The easiest way to do that is a concrete dog run with the appropriate drainage system. BUT the dogs need time out from that, so we need to have an amount of time they need to be outside to exercise. So we need outside yards with shelter and they must be in them (X amount of hours per day) I think at them moment it is one hour which is woefully inadequate. You would also need to specify exercise yard sizes and shelter contained within.

How do you quantify other enrichment. EG time spent on human interaction - brushing, training, patting etc. Then toys, bones etc????

The must have their kennels cleaned at least once a day( what consitiutes cleaned would need to be defined), but twice would be preferred.

There must be records keep that are verifiable in regard to deworming, flea treatment etc ie random faecal testing to make sure the dogs do not have huge parasite burdens????Not sure how else you would do it?????

A standard in regarding to feeing - but how would that be defined???? Raw, commercial dry food, mixture what would the bench mark be? People have a right to feed how they like - raw, dry food etc- however there needs to be something in place to make sure dogs are getting adequate nutition as many don't, especially pregnant bitches.

A standard for a whelping/lactating bitch. Run size, type and size of whelping box, bedding type ie not a piece of carpet thrown on the floor. there dhould be rules in place regarding feeding of the pregnant/lactatinb bitch ie twice, three, four times a day.

The other thing we need to remember is these people are not the dog savvy people on here who are very knowledgable. We need to think lowest common denominator. There needs to be very clear regulations that are to be adhered to for people to be able to keep a breeding license. There should be random, often occuring spot checks with no warnings.

How all this would be policed - goodness only knows, and yes I know people on here will or will not use a whelping box, people will feed there bitches how they do as it works for them and many other things. But this would not be for your average hobby breeder it would be for a puppy farm who is going for or trying to keep the right to do it as a licensed business.

This is my ramblings as they come to mind, so not everything has had great amounts of thought put into it, it is ideas to try and get thinking about the things we can change or regulate. Fire away!!!!!!

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

it is also about our relationship with dogs. not individually but as a society.

we have values that we put onto dog breeding that we dont for say pigs, or sheep or cows.

i dont think this is right personally as i think all animals should be well looked after and slaughtered properly. in fact if this is done the procuct is superior.

[Little Gifts]

There are no national laws applying to animal welfare, but all states and territories regulate animal welfare in their jurisdiction. The legislation in each State and Territory is in a table through the following link and when I get time I will have a look. It certainly makes things a lot harder when the legislation is state based. My sister works on constitutional law issues so I might ask her if there is anything about animals in it as constitutional law gazumps state and local laws.

http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-the-Austral...elfare_264.html

[Sandra777]

Sandra, You're tossing numbers around here! For a Dane, 7 is mature middle-aged but for even the hardiest of smaller and longer-lived breeds, a lifespan of 15 to 17 years is not very common. Most dogs last from somewhere between 10-14 years in my experience.

Most dogs at my place last 14-16 years so this is my experience, this in a breed "known" to live 12-14 years.

7 IS a number being thrown around, but it's not one I brought in to the conversation

The point is that someone without oldies is not necessarily a puppy farmer. Rehoming bitches after breeding doesn't necessarily make you a puppy farmer.

[Cosmolo]

I think we need to focus on the enrichment and socialisation needs of the dog- as opposed to other intensively farmed animals. In particular critical period socialisation should be factored into any code- backed by the scientific literature that already exists. Steve, i wrote an article recently called "Why Dogs Aren't Dairy Cows"- while it doesn't define puppy farner it does discuss the effects of intensive breeding practices in poor conditions on both puppies and the parents who produce them. Do you want me to send it to you?

[Steve]

O.K. If we are going to have dogs housed intensively its easier to keep them clean if they have concrete floors but what if someone has dogs and they can provide large areas for them to live in with grassed areas ? Is replicating a backyard situation for a couple of dogs at a time preferable to having them all in one shed in individual pens on concrete?

[Steve]

I think we need to focus on the enrichment and socialisation needs of the dog- as opposed to other intensively farmed animals. In particular critical period socialisation should be factored into any code- backed by the scientific literature that already exists. Steve, i wrote an article recently called "Why Dogs Aren't Dairy Cows"- while it doesn't define puppy farner it does discuss the effects of intensive breeding practices in poor conditions on both puppies and the parents who produce them. Do you want me to send it to you?

Yes please.

[WreckitWhippet]

I think we need to focus on the enrichment and socialisation needs of the dog- as opposed to other intensively farmed animals. In particular critical period socialisation should be factored into any code- backed by the scientific literature that already exists. Steve, i wrote an article recently called "Why Dogs Aren't Dairy Cows"- while it doesn't define puppy farner it does discuss the effects of intensive breeding practices in poor conditions on both puppies and the parents who produce them. Do you want me to send it to you?

It's the one area that the puppy farmers just can't meet a dog/puppies needs in. They can build the concrete runs, provide a water and food bowl each and chuck them outside for an hour a day but providing breed appropriate socialisation and interaction for both pups and adults, they have not a hope in hell.

Code of practice are all good in theory but meaningless unless policed and this raises another problem, how do you decide if a pup/adult has been adequately socialised or that their daily lives are enriched ?

[WreckitWhippet]

O.K. If we are going to have dogs housed intensively its easier to keep them clean if they have concrete floors but what if someone has dogs and they can provide large areas for them to live in with grassed areas ? Is replicating a backyard situation for a couple of dogs at a time preferable to having them all in one shed in individual pens on concrete?

Love those yards. The one thing that does jump out though, is where is the shade and where is the shelter ?

[Scarlet]

I think we need to focus on the enrichment and socialisation needs of the dog- as opposed to other intensively farmed animals. In particular critical period socialisation should be factored into any code- backed by the scientific literature that already exists. Steve, i wrote an article recently called "Why Dogs Aren't Dairy Cows"- while it doesn't define puppy farner it does discuss the effects of intensive breeding practices in poor conditions on both puppies and the parents who produce them. Do you want me to send it to you?

This is what "hits home" for me.

Most dogs in Australia are bred for the pet market so socialisation and health are really important.

I think pups need to be exposed to family living and noises before they leave their mum at 8 weeks.

Pups that are farmed in large numbers miss out on this important socialisation.

[Greytmate]

O.K. If we are going to have dogs housed intensively its easier to keep them clean if they have concrete floors but what if someone has dogs and they can provide large areas for them to live in with grassed areas ? Is replicating a backyard situation for a couple of dogs at a time preferable to having them all in one shed in individual pens on concrete?

Different dogs have different needs at different ages.

Puppies need to be kept on hard floors for at least the first few weeks. All dogs should have access to a sleeping area with a concrete floor.

The yards in your photo have no shelter and would only be suitable for exercise yards at certain times of day.

I think we need to focus on the enrichment and socialisation needs of the dog- as opposed to other intensively farmed animals.

I agree. Puppy farming is a such a huge topic, that draws such an emotional response here. Most of what people generally want here will never become law.

What Cosmolo is talking about is a subject that we are rapidly learning more about and it goes to the very heart of dog welfare and producing good dogs. I would have no problem with dogs being kept in their hundreds in cages on concrete if the exercise, enrichment and socialisation needs are fully met.

I think sometimes we can be a little anthropomorphic in our views of kennels. We don't have to live in them.

[Rottsup]

Hmm for me a puppy farmer is someone who breeds for profit.

IMO - The above quote hits the nail on the head regardless of other circumstances people believe constitutes a puppy farmer. Farmers farm animals or produce to make money therefore the definition of a puppy farmer is simple and uncomplicated!

If one breeds in order to supplement their income of any type (usually a pension of some type) they are a puppy farmer.