The First Of Many Questions For You Re Rescue, Breeding,owning Dogs

[Steve]

Great Steve! I'll step up to the plate with some initial thoughts.

A puppy farmer is someone:

who breeds dogs for financial motives rather than for the maintenance and development of type, temperament and soundness of the breed.

A puppy farmer can be identified as someone:

who exports whole litters or multiple puppies from the same litter to a single person or agency

who exports whole litters or multiple puppies from the same litter, from multiple breeds

who fills orders from pet stores or retail chains for puppies of specified breeds or cross breeds

who breeds a bitch almost every season of her adult fertile life

who fails to meet legislated standards for animal welfare especially provisions addressing adequacy of housing and veterinary care

who fails to provide breed-appropriate exercise and training for multiple breeds in their care

I hope these thoughts will help to progress effective action against puppy farmers whether they are registered with a State Canine Authority or not.

Very Good - explore some of this -quote "rather than for the "maintenance and development of type, temperament and soundness of the breed" are you saying that anyone who breeds anything other than purebred is a puppy farmer, anyone who breeds anything other than registered purebreds is a puppy farmer or something else?

Edited June 28, 2010 by Steve

[Steve]

I am not going to define puppy farmer. I am going to list some commercial dog breeding practices that I do not like.

Breeding without providing adequate kennel enrichment or exercise.

Providing no veterinary care for pups because it is not cost effective.

Breeding from stock with no knowledge of the dog's pedigree/genetics. Breeding from unregistered stock.

Breeding every season.

Breeding with a bitch up until the time she dies.

I will add more when I think of them.

O.K. So lets explore these a bit.

Why breeding every season when canine reproduction specialists say its BETTER for the bitch to breed every season? disclaimer - I dont breed a bitch every season because its against my codes of conduct not because I'm convinced its whats best for my dog.

When do you think a bitch should stop breeding?

You say "canine reproduction specialists say its BETTER for the bitch to breed every season" Sorry, but you really have to substantiate this statement with citations to peer-reviewed, published research in academic journals for me to believe this is the proven truth.

No idea if that exists however, I have spoken with 4 different vets who specialise in canine reproduction, I have knowledge of another in Brisbane who is preparing a paper on it and Dr Hutchison a canine reproduction specialist in the states who feel there is no benefit to a bitch to not breed her on every season if she is in good condition. Personally Id love to see studies on this but who is going to do them? None of us can as its against our codes of conduct.

The scientific fact is that whether a bitch is pregnant or not she secretes the same hormones. In a pregnancy the hormones released which cause the whelping and subsequernt rearing of the pups counteract the hormones battering her uterus. If you hold her off before you mate her she is more likely to have fertility issues.

This is what Hutchison had to say http://www.doghobbyist.com/CanineRepro.html

[Steve]

My definition of a puppy farmer:

A puppy farmer mass produces puppies purely for commercial gain with scant disregard for both pups and parent’s health and welfare. This is done by breeding pups in more often than not atrocious conditions with minimal human intervention and exposure to any stimulation outside the confines of their appalling conditions, for both parents for the remainder of their lives and for pups up until and if they leave the puppy farm. Everything that is done at a puppy farm is about maximizing profit and minimizing costs at the expense of the parents and puppies including limited or no veterinary care or necessary health checks.

Sorry I exceeded the 50 word limit

thats O.K. But if a breeder has - lets say- a thousand dogs and they regard the health and welfare of their dogs,breed them in good conditions with human interaction is that O.K.?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

ok so lets look at it as though it was a farming/husbandry practice.

we dont want to eat caged eggs because:

the product quality is not as good as free range eggs

the caged chickens have no enrichment throughout their life

their diet is not as natural as free range chickens

we want to be green and animal friendly and animals should not suffer unduly to provide us with food

the meat product quality is not as high as free range chickens which have been fed a suitable diet

the death rate of caged chickens is much hiogher than free range chickens

the health problems of caged chickens are greater than free range chickens.

change caged chickens for caged dogs and the result is the same.

if all those tv chefs can go on a free range chicken campaign then we can do the same for puppy farmers vs registered breeders.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

My definition of a puppy farmer:

A puppy farmer mass produces puppies purely for commercial gain with scant disregard for both pups and parent's health and welfare. This is done by breeding pups in more often than not atrocious conditions with minimal human intervention and exposure to any stimulation outside the confines of their appalling conditions, for both parents for the remainder of their lives and for pups up until and if they leave the puppy farm. Everything that is done at a puppy farm is about maximizing profit and minimizing costs at the expense of the parents and puppies including limited or no veterinary care or necessary health checks.

Sorry I exceeded the 50 word limit

thats O.K. But if a breeder has - lets say- a thousand dogs and they regard the health and welfare of their dogs,breed them in good conditions with human interaction is that O.K.?

Steve

this is an extremely good exercise because so often we know something is not right but it is difficult to express why it isnt right.

this makes us think

[Steve]

ok so lets look at it as though it was a farming/husbandry practice.

we dont want to eat caged eggs because:

the product quality is not as good as free range eggs

the caged chickens have no enrichment throughout their life

their diet is not as natural as free range chickens

we want to be green and animal friendly and animals should not suffer unduly to provide us with food

the meat product quality is not as high as free range chickens which have been fed a suitable diet

the death rate of caged chickens is much hiogher than free range chickens

the health problems of caged chickens are greater than free range chickens.

change caged chickens for caged dogs and the result is the same.

if all those tv chefs can go on a free range chicken campaign then we can do the same for puppy farmers vs registered breeders.

Thats good - except that current papers and state codes of practice push for exactly the opposite. They dont want free range dogs they want them in pens on concrete.

Over the last 4 weeks a rescue group in NSW has been closed down because they didnt have concrete pens - all else was good except they had the dogs "free range"

Can registered breeders be puppy farmers?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

ok so lets look at it as though it was a farming/husbandry practice.

we dont want to eat caged eggs because:

the product quality is not as good as free range eggs

the caged chickens have no enrichment throughout their life

their diet is not as natural as free range chickens

we want to be green and animal friendly and animals should not suffer unduly to provide us with food

the meat product quality is not as high as free range chickens which have been fed a suitable diet

the death rate of caged chickens is much hiogher than free range chickens

the health problems of caged chickens are greater than free range chickens.

change caged chickens for caged dogs and the result is the same.

if all those tv chefs can go on a free range chicken campaign then we can do the same for puppy farmers vs registered breeders.

Thats good - except that current papers and state codes of practice push for exactly the opposite. They dont want free range dogs they want them in pens on concrete.

Over the last 4 weeks a rescue group in NSW has been closed down because they didnt have concrete pens - all else was good except they had the dogs "free range"

Can registered breeders be puppy farmers?

unfortunately yes

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

ok so lets look at it as though it was a farming/husbandry practice.

we dont want to eat caged eggs because:

the product quality is not as good as free range eggs

the caged chickens have no enrichment throughout their life

their diet is not as natural as free range chickens

we want to be green and animal friendly and animals should not suffer unduly to provide us with food

the meat product quality is not as high as free range chickens which have been fed a suitable diet

the death rate of caged chickens is much hiogher than free range chickens

the health problems of caged chickens are greater than free range chickens.

change caged chickens for caged dogs and the result is the same.

if all those tv chefs can go on a free range chicken campaign then we can do the same for puppy farmers vs registered breeders.

Thats good - except that current papers and state codes of practice push for exactly the opposite. They dont want free range dogs they want them in pens on concrete.

Over the last 4 weeks a rescue group in NSW has been closed down because they didnt have concrete pens - all else was good except they had the dogs "free range"

Can registered breeders be puppy farmers?

and that is just crazy

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

ok thinking about it more i believe it is about enrichment of the animal. if someone has thousands of dogs that is ok as long as each dog was enriched to an acceptable standard...and that standard must be defined.

[Steve]

My definition of a puppy farmer:

A puppy farmer mass produces puppies purely for commercial gain with scant disregard for both pups and parent's health and welfare. This is done by breeding pups in more often than not atrocious conditions with minimal human intervention and exposure to any stimulation outside the confines of their appalling conditions, for both parents for the remainder of their lives and for pups up until and if they leave the puppy farm. Everything that is done at a puppy farm is about maximizing profit and minimizing costs at the expense of the parents and puppies including limited or no veterinary care or necessary health checks.

Sorry I exceeded the 50 word limit

thats O.K. But if a breeder has - lets say- a thousand dogs and they regard the health and welfare of their dogs,breed them in good conditions with human interaction is that O.K.?

Steve

this is an extremely good exercise because so often we know something is not right but it is difficult to express why it isnt right.

this makes us think

Ill take time out to explain a little.

Until I attended the seminar at Monash Uni and heard Kate Scoffeld speak regarding her puppy farm and the group she has put together to bring them in with a voluntary code of practice I had certain ideas and beliefs about puppy farming. It made me see that some of the solutions being presented not only wont work but have the potential to make more dogs suffer rather than less. With this new

information Ive studied the current paper circulating via the RSPCA to regulate breeders and I personally think its missing a very large chunk of what its going to take to help the dogs caught up in all of this.

I was very upset by what Id heard and kept poor Lesley up all night yelling about it and that feeling hasn't left me. Something needs to be done but we need to pull it ALL apart and re think what we have come to assume because thats not really whats happening and if we will simply watch on as more and more dogs suffer.

Im tired of having to go in and fight against legislation thats being tendered that makes little real sense that gets through anyway and Im after us as dog lovers with no hidden agendas but what is best for dogs to make some suggestions and fight for realistic reform ourselves.

[Steve]

ok thinking about it more i believe it is about enrichment of the animal. if someone has thousands of dogs that is ok as long as each dog was enriched to an acceptable standard...and that standard must be defined.

Part of the issue for me is that all of their ideas and codes seem to come from what is best practice for boarding kennels. You know places where dogs stay for short periods but surely dogs who are there for ever need different environmental conditions to remain healthy?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

My definition of a puppy farmer:

A puppy farmer mass produces puppies purely for commercial gain with scant disregard for both pups and parent's health and welfare. This is done by breeding pups in more often than not atrocious conditions with minimal human intervention and exposure to any stimulation outside the confines of their appalling conditions, for both parents for the remainder of their lives and for pups up until and if they leave the puppy farm. Everything that is done at a puppy farm is about maximizing profit and minimizing costs at the expense of the parents and puppies including limited or no veterinary care or necessary health checks.

Sorry I exceeded the 50 word limit

thats O.K. But if a breeder has - lets say- a thousand dogs and they regard the health and welfare of their dogs,breed them in good conditions with human interaction is that O.K.?

Steve

this is an extremely good exercise because so often we know something is not right but it is difficult to express why it isnt right.

this makes us think

Ill take time out to explain a little.

Until I attended the seminar at Monash Uni and heard Kate Scoffeld speak regarding her puppy farm and the group she has put together to bring them in with a voluntary code of practice I had certain ideas and beliefs about puppy farming. It made me see that some of the solutions being presented not only wont work but have the potential to make more dogs suffer rather than less. With this new

information Ive studied the current paper circulating via the RSPCA to regulate breeders and I personally think its missing a very large chunk of what its going to take to help the dogs caught up in all of this.

I was very upset by what Id heard and kept poor Lesley up all night yelling about it and that feeling hasn't left me. Something needs to be done but we need to pull it ALL apart and re think what we have come to assume because thats not really whats happening and if we will simply watch on as more and more dogs suffer.

Im tired of having to go in and fight against legislation thats being tendered that makes little real sense that gets through anyway and Im after us as dog lovers with no hidden agendas but what is best for dogs to make some suggestions and fight for realistic reform ourselves.

ty Steve

i will do some research on this as i want to educate myself.

i do not like assuming things i would rather know the facts.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

ok thinking about it more i believe it is about enrichment of the animal. if someone has thousands of dogs that is ok as long as each dog was enriched to an acceptable standard...and that standard must be defined.

Part of the issue for me is that all of their ideas and codes seem to come from what is best practice for boarding kennels. You know places where dogs stay for short periods but surely dogs who are there for ever need different environmental conditions to remain healthy?

definately. boarding a dog for 1 week it much different from boarding it for a lifetime.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

and breeders must not breed from dogs with known genetic problems which i think puppy farmers do?

[merijigs]

Caring reputable breeders keep their retired breeding stock for their whole lives. I have no problem with breeders that choose to breed one or two litters from a young bitch before desexing and placing her in a forever home but once they reach 7, I believe the breeder should continue to look after them in their retirement.

IMO 7 is a random number. 7 for a Dane is "older" age, 7 for a smaller breed bitch is quite a lot less than 1/2 her life expectancy. Some dogs no matter what their age are keepers, some aren't. There's always some which are going to be happier living as a single dog and their age doesn't change this - so what to do? Keep a 7.5 year old bitch to avoid being labelled a puppy farmer or keep her for another 8-10 years in a situation where she is never as happy as she could be elsewhere?

Sandra, You're tossing numbers around here! For a Dane, 7 is mature middle-aged but for even the hardiest of smaller and longer-lived breeds, a lifespan of 15 to 17 years is not very common. Most dogs last from somewhere between 10-14 years in my experience.

One of the main factors in defining a puppy farmer is that they don't have any oldies living out their days with them because keeping oldies is what negates any profit you may have made on breeding them in their younger days.

Or someone who has not been in the breed for long, or someone who breeds very infrequently and has lost all their oldies through natural causes. We lost all 3 of our over 14's in a space of 8 months quite a few years ago, our next oldest was 5 - from ethical reputable breeder to puppy farmer in 8 months?

IMO a puppy farmer is about motive not actual physical things. A beautifully kept kennel with all the latest mod-cons can be a puppy farm. Although admittedly, no loving caring people would keep their dogs in a sea of mud so the reverse analogy isn't 100% correct.

[Greytmate]

You say "canine reproduction specialists say its BETTER for the bitch to breed every season" Sorry, but you really have to substantiate this statement with citations to peer-reviewed, published research in academic journals for me to believe this is the proven truth.

No idea if that exists however, I have spoken with 4 different vets who specialise in canine reproduction, I have knowledge of another in Brisbane who is preparing a paper on it and Dr Hutchison a canine reproduction specialist in the states who feel there is no benefit to a bitch to not breed her on every season if she is in good condition. Personally Id love to see studies on this but who is going to do them? None of us can as its against our codes of conduct.

The scientific fact is that whether a bitch is pregnant or not she secretes the same hormones. In a pregnancy the hormones released which cause the whelping and subsequernt rearing of the pups counteract the hormones battering her uterus. If you hold her off before you mate her she is more likely to have fertility issues.

This is what Hutchison had to say http://www.doghobbyist.com/CanineRepro.html

I agree with merijigs.

Nothing on that link you posted says anything about breeding every season.

There are people in Australia breeding their bitches every season, and I would have thought that there would be a lot more than hormones battering a bitch's uterus with that level of intensive breeding.

From what I have seen, bitches that have been bred from too often tend not to last as long as other bitches. No studies done, just looking at the poor old things.

But I guess the high number of puppies produced by them proves their fertility is better than that of bitches not so intensively bred?

Welfare is the utmost concern to me. Fertility is a lower priority.

I disagree with those that prioritise fertility over welfare.

[dancinbcs]

Caring reputable breeders keep their retired breeding stock for their whole lives. I have no problem with breeders that choose to breed one or two litters from a young bitch before desexing and placing her in a forever home but once they reach 7, I believe the breeder should continue to look after them in their retirement.

IMO 7 is a random number. 7 for a Dane is "older" age, 7 for a smaller breed bitch is quite a lot less than 1/2 her life expectancy. Some dogs no matter what their age are keepers, some aren't. There's always some which are going to be happier living as a single dog and their age doesn't change this - so what to do? Keep a 7.5 year old bitch to avoid being labelled a puppy farmer or keep her for another 8-10 years in a situation where she is never as happy as she could be elsewhere?

One of the main factors in defining a puppy farmer is that they don't have any oldies living out their days with them because keeping oldies is what negates any profit you may have made on breeding them in their younger days.

Or someone who has not been in the breed for long, or someone who breeds very infrequently and has lost all their oldies through natural causes. We lost all 3 of our over 14's in a space of 8 months quite a few years ago, our next oldest was 5 - from ethical reputable breeder to puppy farmer in 8 months?

IMO a puppy farmer is about motive not actual physical things. A beautifully kept kennel with all the latest mod-cons can be a puppy farm. Although admittedly, no loving caring people would keep their dogs in a sea of mud so the reverse analogy isn't 100% correct.

Fair enough with the age depending on breed but I was just going for an average. Average size breed, average middle age.

The point I was trying to make is that puppy farmers NEVER have "keepers", they euth (often shoot) them all when they can no longer breed or palm. of old dogs that have never been socialised to unsuspecting pet homes. Many of the bitches die having litters that they were too worn out to have. Age is not really a determining factor in how late a bitch can be bred, within reason. The number of puppies has has raised is. An average size breed can easily have a litter at 8 if she has only had 2 or 3 litters of 5 or 6 before. If she is bred every season from say 10 months and has raised 70 or 80 puppies then her body has probably had more than enough strain on it.

If you routinely keep oldies then even if you don't have any at a particular time, you are not a puppy farmer.

[labsrule]

My definition of a puppy farmer:

A puppy farmer mass produces puppies purely for commercial gain with scant disregard for both pups and parent’s health and welfare. This is done by breeding pups in more often than not atrocious conditions with minimal human intervention and exposure to any stimulation outside the confines of their appalling conditions, for both parents for the remainder of their lives and for pups up until and if they leave the puppy farm. Everything that is done at a puppy farm is about maximizing profit and minimizing costs at the expense of the parents and puppies including limited or no veterinary care or necessary health checks.

Sorry I exceeded the 50 word limit

thats O.K. But if a breeder has - lets say- a thousand dogs and they regard the health and welfare of their dogs,breed them in good conditions with human interaction is that O.K.?

No it isn't and I would also regard a "breeder" with a 1000 dogs or huge numbers of dogs as a puppy farmer :D I know what you are getting at, so I will remove the "emotive" parts and I will redefine my definition of a puppy farmer:

A puppy farmer mass produces puppies purely for commercial gain and is about maximizing profit and minimizing costs at the expense of the dogs and puppies and treating their dogs and puppies as livestock.

New definition is now under 50 words

[merijigs]

Great Steve! I'll step up to the plate with some initial thoughts.

A puppy farmer is someone:

who breeds dogs for financial motives rather than for the maintenance and development of type, temperament and soundness of the breed.

A puppy farmer can be identified as someone:

who exports whole litters or multiple puppies from the same litter to a single person or agency

who exports whole litters or multiple puppies from the same litter, from multiple breeds

who fills orders from pet stores or retail chains for puppies of specified breeds or cross breeds

who breeds a bitch almost every season of her adult fertile life

who fails to meet legislated standards for animal welfare especially provisions addressing adequacy of housing and veterinary care

who fails to provide breed-appropriate exercise and training for multiple breeds in their care

I hope these thoughts will help to progress effective action against puppy farmers whether they are registered with a State Canine Authority or not.

Very Good - explore some of this -quote "rather than for the "maintenance and development of type, temperament and soundness of the breed" are you saying that anyone who breeds anything other than purebred is a puppy farmer, anyone who breeds anything other than registered purebreds is a puppy farmer or something else?

The term 'puppy farmer' implies production in bulk however BackYardBreeder is equally bad but usually without the bulk of product. So, my answer to your question is resoundingly YES.

[OSoSwift]

Hmm for me a puppy farmer is someone who breeds for profit. As in they have multiple litters, usually on every heat. As long as bitch can have babies she stays. They do not heakth test of breed for the betterment of the breed. They usually have no contact after the puppy is sold - or very little. If a problems shows up, you get nothing from them.

People can be puppy farmers if they are registered breeders or not.

Puppy farmers usually do not put preventative health care high up on their list of priorities, and unfortunalty even health care for injuries or illnesses are not treated quickly or at all. The need to produce babies at the cheapest cost is the motivator.

Dogs are kept in runs - many of them and usually multiple dogs per pen. Keeping dogs in a run does not a puppy farmer make, many dogs are in dog runs and have a great life, but a PF's dogs usually do not leave unless maybe to go into another shed for whelping - if they are lucky.

I guess to me the mental picture I get is like an intensive piggery, line of concrete pens, very basic bedding and even if the pens are clean, many never leave those pens, the only contact they get is feed time. Even the best run puppy farm that was clean and the dogs well fed still is not right, Dogs are pack animals, not livestock. They do not do well confined to a concrete pen day in day out. they need companionship and exercise and stimulation, enrichment.

I know what I want to say, not sure I can say it very well though.