Harness

[SpikesPuppy]

I wouldn't put a harness on a growing/developing puppy for fear of damaging the dog and resulting in restricted/poor movement.

I use a Sporn easy walk (figure 8 shape not the one that goes under the armpits) on my adult dog as she is evil, but I waited until she was developed fully before introducing this tool.

[aussielover]

use a flat collar or a martingale dont jump straight to harnesses. They do not teach the dog to slow down they simply hinder movement - effectively you do not teaching the dog. Get a trainer in or join a dog school at least for a few months to show you how. Too many people on this forum recommend harnesses, head halters etc and I see their dogs control is reliant on a piece of equipment hindering the dogs movement to get results. Until you have trained a dog to walk decently on lead without a crutch I wouldnt be dealing out advice to another novice.

Obviously I agree that it is better to put the time and effort into having you dog walk on a collar and loose lead but would you rather people not walk their dog at all?

As sad as it is, many people couldn't be bothered to do even 10 minutes of training a day let alone go to obedience classes. I'm sure it is easy to train a dog to walk on a loose lead if you know how and are experienced. I really think it is one of those things easier said than done, especially for inexperienced owners and people who get very frustrated and emotional.

I am training my puppy to walk with a flat collar only, but given the choice I would have to seriously consider a harness...

Many people would also rather spend 20 bucks on a harness rather than 50-100 for a consultation with a trainer.

If it is not affecting their welfare (and I personally don't think front attach harnesses affect welfare whilst being worn) and it means the dog can get out for a few more walks because it is more managable and safer, then i don't see the problem.

I don't think a well fitted harness would restrict the movement... i've seen dogs running around in these with no troubles

Persephone: was that when you were training guide dogs? That actually doesn't sound like a bad idea (. I might try it when mindy gets older I wouldn't use the choke chain though).

[SpikesPuppy]

I don't think a well fitted harness would restrict the movement... i've seen dogs running around in these with no troubles

That's one of the issues though, many people don't know how to correctly fit a harness. My breed for example is very narrow in the front (or they should be!), so the majority of harnesses that have a chest strap do not fit correctly.

Likewise, the narrow chest means that a front-attach harness is also a no-go zone as with little effort, a Border can slip it's shoulders out of one (I know this from experience ).

As I said, I use a no pull harness on my adult bitch - but it IS fitted correctly and securely and I did not put one on her until she was grown. She is also regularly seen by a doggy chiro.

I would be worried about a puppy's front going out if on a front-attach harness and pulling/being subsequently twisted as a correction.

[persephone]

Persephone: was that when you were training guide dogs? That actually doesn't sound like a bad idea (. I might try it when mindy gets older I wouldn't use the choke chain though).

Yep .. and using a chain collar sensitively ( it does NOT choke a dog if used correctly. It is the person's technique -or lack of- which chokes the dog )is not a lot different to using a martingale .

Once again- being SHOWN by someone who has experience how to use ANY training aid/tool goes a long way to that aid/tool being effective !

Edited June 29, 2010 by persephone

[corvus]

I don't think people should be made to feel defensive about turning to a no-pull harness or other device. Use whatever you need to in order to get your dog to walk nicely. No big deal. They are not severely aversive to most dogs and it's not the end of the world if you decide to use them permanently, either. You haven't let your dog down or failed in some way if you opt to use a no-pull harness, even if you opt to use it as a permanent crutch. You do what works for you.

[koalathebear]

I don't think people should be made to feel defensive about turning to a no-pull harness or other device. Use whatever you need to in order to get your dog to walk nicely. No big deal. They are not severely aversive to most dogs and it's not the end of the world if you decide to use them permanently, either. You haven't let your dog down or failed in some way if you opt to use a no-pull harness, even if you opt to use it as a permanent crutch. You do what works for you.

Hee! It's hard not to feel defensive on this forum sometimes Even though the advice is well-intended, sometimes other people make things seem so easy while meanwhile people like me are finding things an awfully hard slug I guess it's like how cooking shows make things look super simple

Edited June 29, 2010 by koalathebear

[huski]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with using tools, but you should know how to use them, and they should never be used as a bandaid or replacement for training.

Many people would also rather spend 20 bucks on a harness rather than 50-100 for a consultation with a trainer.

That may be true, but what happens when their dog learns to pull on the $20 harness? And then on the next tool they try? By which time the dog is bigger, stronger and the behaviour is more ingrained and harder to break.

[persephone]

That may be true, but what happens when their dog learns to pull on the $20 harness? And then on the next tool they try? By which time the dog is bigger, stronger and the behaviour is more ingrained and harder to break.

yes- and when the dog has learnt to ignore corrections given without correct timing ....

it is SO easy to mistime things, and 'meet the dog halfway' ... I have taught Hamlet some amazingly inconvenient and annoying things over teh years

[Nekhbet]

aussielover the OP asked what the best thing was for her dog. One session with a trainer is worth a lot of work done alone trying with paraphenalia bought from pet stores sold by staff who mostly have no idea.

I am training my puppy to walk with a flat collar only, but given the choice I would have to seriously consider a harness...

why? A collar offers so much more control. Why would you go to a harness.

Obviously I agree that it is better to put the time and effort into having you dog walk on a collar and loose lead but would you rather people not walk their dog at all?

so would you rather people keep trying by themselves until it becomes a problem they finally ask for help with? Like ignoring that knocking sound from under the cars bonnet until it finally needs towing and you're hit with a huge bill? Some people on this forum dont seem to understand, a trainer is someone you should try before the problem gets out of hand, not wait until you cannot tolerate it anymore. I think about the dog, not just the person. WHat is the dog learning ... nothing. There are many good trainers who offer decent pricing or dog clubs that cost less then a harness.

I don't think people should be made to feel defensive about turning to a no-pull harness or other device.

If they are simply used as the easy way out instead of getting some good advice and putting in some effort then yes, I do see it as a problem. Unfortunately the positive brigade has made them seem all warm and fuzzy and replace the need for a trainer. Well I see so many dog dragging their owners around by harnesses, haltis etc and those sporn harnesses rubbing away at dogs armpits until they're red. Apparently that is 'helping'. No matter the equipment we seem to be forgetting training is required - my point is too many people are too quick to put the band aid on it.

[SpikesPuppy]

http://www.sporn.com/cgi-bin/commerce.exe?...on&key=SPUS

(if that doesn't work go to the main 'training' page and it's the 'simple control harness')

the above is what I use on my girl who pulls like a train. Interestingly, it was purchased AFTER trying other methods using a flat collar/chain/martingale (I've trained dogs before, not to mention read dozens of threads and articles on it so I didn't try for 5 minutes then give up- I gave every method or tool sufficient time to have an effect), and it has made life easier. I'm not saying she is impossible to train, but she is damn hard and this tool has made life so much easier for the both of us. We can actually go for a pleasant stroll now rather than stopping and starting and having her put all her weight into her forequarter, resulting in unbalanced muscletone (she was all front - eww. Since she's been exercised on the harness and now walks with an even gait/weight distributed evenly from front to rear her weak hocks have also improved greatly ).

It also has the added benefit of not cutting any coat as a collar does, so I am considering getting one for her daughter also (who does not pull but has a terrible cut on her neck from her collar )

I think a combination of maturity and the harness has resulted in her pulling less frequently these days (though she is known to just dart off at random intervals as many DOLers know she is only wee but she is STRONG), but overall, I am very happy with this product and have found it to be suitable for my needs.

I can walk my girl on a flat collar if required, it's just less pleasant if the intention is a nice stroll!!

[aussielover]

why? A collar offers so much more control. Why would you go to a harness.

I don't like the idea of pulling on my dogs neck, which can happen, even by accident.

so would you rather people keep trying by themselves until it becomes a problem they finally ask for help with? Like ignoring that knocking sound from under the cars bonnet until it finally needs towing and you're hit with a huge bill? Some people on this forum dont seem to understand, a trainer is someone you should try before the problem gets out of hand, not wait until you cannot tolerate it anymore. I think about the dog, not just the person. WHat is the dog learning ... nothing. There are many good trainers who offer decent pricing or dog clubs that cost less then a harness.

No, but what if the tool works for them and they never have problems using it?

If they are simply used as the easy way out instead of getting some good advice and putting in some effort then yes, I do see it as a problem. Unfortunately the positive brigade has made them seem all warm and fuzzy and replace the need for a trainer. Well I see so many dog dragging their owners around by harnesses, haltis etc and those sporn harnesses rubbing away at dogs armpits until they're red. Apparently that is 'helping'. No matter the equipment we seem to be forgetting training is required - my point is too many people are too quick to put the band aid on it.

Perhaps you could enlighten me as to whether the average owner with a problem dog can train their dog in one day to walk on a flat collar and lead? I personally have not been able to achieve this, though I am willing to accept that perhaps I have not been shown a good method to achieve this or that I am not doing the method i have been shown correctly (though I think i am), depsite attending a puppy school and being in regular contact with puppy trainers from guide dogs.

In my experience it takes time and effort on the owners part to train the dog, especially if it has the bad habits already. I absolutely agree with you that training is the best option but in the meantime while you are training the dog, it still needs to be exercised.

Also, how do you know when you need a trainer? How long should you try by yourself? What age can you expect a dog to achieve walking on a lead?

[corvus]

If they are simply used as the easy way out instead of getting some good advice and putting in some effort then yes, I do see it as a problem. Unfortunately the positive brigade has made them seem all warm and fuzzy and replace the need for a trainer. Well I see so many dog dragging their owners around by harnesses, haltis etc and those sporn harnesses rubbing away at dogs armpits until they're red. Apparently that is 'helping'. No matter the equipment we seem to be forgetting training is required - my point is too many people are too quick to put the band aid on it.

No, the "positive brigade" has offered a tool that is not as potentially damaging or aversive and more effective than check chains. Don't tell me you think the problem of skipping training is a direct result of the introduction of a tool that actually allows people to walk their dog without getting their arms pulled off and without any training skills. No, before no-pull harnesses and head collars the dogs didn't get walked, or they were corrected up and down the street on a check chain, which did nothing but occasionally make the dog choke a little.

There will ALWAYS be people that are only looking for a band aid. It will always be the majority of the dog-owning population. I'd rather give them a band aid that works and allows the dog to get a daily walk. Maybe if they spend more time with their dog and get some smiles happening they'll be inspired to train further.

But the fact of the matter is that training is actually not required. Walk a dog on a harness or head collar for the rest of their life and most will do exactly as their owners want them to: walk on a loose leash. I'm not denying that there would be some dogs that would learn to pull on anything, but personally, I see a lot more dogs that don't pull because they wear a no-pull harness or head collar. From the perspective of most owners, if you can manage it, why train it so you no longer need to manage it? That is a valid perspective. As far as I'm concerned it is personal preference alone that has me training LLW rather than managing it. I like training. I don't trust things that tighten with pressure anywhere on my dogs unless I can control it directly. That's just me, folks. I'm not standing on a moral high ground or something.

[aussielover]

Thankyou Corvus that was exactly what I was trying to express

[sas]

I can give a pretty hefty correction on the martingale and get a very minor or no reaction at all. Sometimes her ears will go back and that's the only sign she cares in the slightest.

The same dog can heel to a pretty high standard when she is walked by herself, or at the training club I definitely know that the problem is focus around our other dog, which I'm working on, but I just don't believe it's as easy as many on these forums make it out to be.

It depends how much of a correction you're comfortable giving I guess? I can't see a dog not responding even when very distracted by issuing a correction at an individual level to them that will have their attention back on you.

In addition to the correction, it's timing and consistancy. Some people just give it because the pup is just all over the place.

I personaly prefer a correction with praise form of training but we're all different and all dogs are different.

Edited June 30, 2010 by sas

[wuffles]

It depends how much of a correction you're comfortable giving I guess? I can't see a dog not responding even when very distracted by issuing a correction at an individual level to them that will have their attention back on you.

I am comfortable giving a strong correction if it works. And yes, I have been shown how to do this

At least with the front-attach harness now we can walk the dogs together without her constantly choking and without having to give correction after correction after correction.

I still don't think this is just an issue with owners without training experience. Most people I know who walk their dogs on haltis and harnesses have quite well behaved dogs who have been through some formal training. There are people in my class at our training club that use these tools during class, and they all definitely know the basics of training their dogs, and they're at class, so it's not like they couldn't be bothered.

I have had at least three instructors at our club (who have obedience and agility titled dogs) tell me that "they have the same problem" when walking more than one dog at once

[Nekhbet]

I have had at least three instructors at our club (who have obedience and agility titled dogs) tell me that "they have the same problem" when walking more than one dog at once

There is a difference between trick training and ingraining lifestyle manners into a dog. It's sort of like a small bratty child knowing 'sorry' and says it but then goes and does it again. If they cannot achieve this basic task ask someone who can. Also while you are the club find a nice, bombproof not caring type dog to practice with instead of one your dog already gets too excited over.

Dogs need to learn respect for their owners. Some clubs focus too much on obedience instead of proper behavioral help and hence you have situational obedience instead of overall acceptence of how they are meant to behave. It is natural for more then one dog on a walk to try and outcompete each other. Its up to the owner to be the overriding force that says to the dog "OK you may want to compete with the other dog but neither of you are going to compete with me, so behave'.

A good way to start the dogs walking together is one person per dog so corrections can be given effectively and well times.

[wuffles]

A good way to start the dogs walking together is one person per dog so corrections can be given effectively and well times.

I've already had all this advice, and while it is gratefully received, this is what we are doing. We are walking them one person per dog. Our older boy needs no corrections. He ends up getting very confused about why we are stopping and starting so much, though I'm not just using a training aid and forgetting about training.

My argument was that I think people on these forums get told things are easy when sometimes they are, but most of the time they are not. Just my opinion.