Difference Between Fear Aggression And Plain Old Aggression?

[Inka3095]

Apologies if this has been asked before:

How can you tell if a dog is growling and carrying on because it's fear aggressive, compared to a dog who's just plain mean...?

I visited my local pound yesterday, and as I was walking past a pen with a SWF maltese x, I noticed a big red 'Caution' sign stuck over her cage. So, as advised, I cautiously approached her, very slowly, talking to her as I walked up. She came to the front of the pen but was growling as ferociously as a bundle of fluff can growl as she came up.

I wasn't being threatening (I don't think), I wasn't carrying anything, I didn't have another dog with me, I just crouched down a bit of a distance away to talk to her. She didn't let up at all, and after about a minute, was trembling all over. Not sure if it was the effort of it all, or if she was just really scared...

I'm asking out of curiosity only, I'm not intending on putting my name on her, but how do you guys decide if a pound dog will relax and become lovely with time and patience, or if it's just a mean, nasty little dog?

[Papillon]

To the best of my knowledge a dog showing real aggression will often have its tail pointing straight back and some dogs the hair on their back will be up. Fear aggression is often accompanied by a tail between the legs during the growling.

Confused aggression (with the dog not knowing if it should attack or retreat) is often accompanied by a tail wagging during the growling and snarling.

The dog at the pound sounds like it is confused and missing its owner. It was probably fear aggression caused by unfamiliar sights & sounds and lots of strange people looking at it. It has probably used the defence before when strangers go near it. The dog growls so the threat (people, other dogs, etc,) go away.

I have seen a number of dogs that didn’t like women, and some that didn’t like men. A Jack Russel that was being babysat by a friend would not let any female touch it, yet any guy could pick it up and do whatever to it. Some dogs don’t like coloured people, some don’t like people with facial hair. We have a dog in our group that I have seen almost daily for 5 years, and she still won’t let me pat her. I can pat every other dog there but not this particular one. Other people in the group can all pat her, just not me.

[Greytmate]

Apologies if this has been asked before:

How can you tell if a dog is growling and carrying on because it's fear aggressive, compared to a dog who's just plain mean...?

I visited my local pound yesterday, and as I was walking past a pen with a SWF maltese x, I noticed a big red 'Caution' sign stuck over her cage. So, as advised, I cautiously approached her, very slowly, talking to her as I walked up. She came to the front of the pen but was growling as ferociously as a bundle of fluff can growl as she came up.

I wasn't being threatening (I don't think), I wasn't carrying anything, I didn't have another dog with me, I just crouched down a bit of a distance away to talk to her. She didn't let up at all, and after about a minute, was trembling all over. Not sure if it was the effort of it all, or if she was just really scared...

I'm asking out of curiosity only, I'm not intending on putting my name on her, but how do you guys decide if a pound dog will relax and become lovely with time and patience, or if it's just a mean, nasty little dog?

Dogs are not usually just plain mean. Aggression usually has a reason. Whether that is fear or defence or prey drive or whatever. Occasionally it is a physical brain problem.

This dog has shown that under stress it is extremely aggressive. So regardless of what it is like when in a relaxed state, there is the potential for it to become aggressive again if stressed.

I wouldn't take the dog.

Even if you had behaved 'threateningly' by staring, standing over or approaching too quick, a good pet should be able to deal with that stress without showing that level of aggression.

Move on to the next pen that has the dog that is happy to get some attention and save that one instead.

[megan_]

just one comment: fear aggression is "real" aggression too! The word 'frea" is simply stating what is motivating the aggression.

[Greytmate]

To the best of my knowledge a dog showing real aggression will often have its tail pointing straight back and some dogs the hair on their back will be up. Fear aggression is often accompanied by a tail between the legs during the growling.

Confused aggression (with the dog not knowing if it should attack or retreat) is often accompanied by a tail wagging during the growling and snarling.

An aggressive dog may have hackles up or it may not.

Its tail may be wagging or it may not.

Its tail may be up, straight or down.

Its ears may be up or laid back.

Some aggression has no growling.

[tdierikx]

I agree with Greytmate... fear and stress can bring out the worst in a dog, and you may never be able to guarantee that the dog in question will truly settle into a lovely little lap dog - if something triggers that sort of reaction sometime down the track, then it can come back to bite you, so to speak...

T.

[W Sibs]

From what I understand, it's a rare thing to have a dog that's plain aggressive.

Like Greytmate said.. there is always a reason behind aggression.

[huski]

I agree with Greytmate - there is no 'plain old aggression'.

Behaviourists and trainers will tell you that the majority of aggressive dogs are fear aggressive.

The difference between a fear aggressive dog and a rank aggressive dog is usually what triggers the aggression and what drives it - a fear aggressive dog is under confident, a rank aggressive dog is over confident.

Edited June 25, 2010 by huski

[shmoo]

Aggression is not easy to sum up on a forum. There are courses you can take to learn more about aggression.

There is a fantastic DVD I watched on aggression called "The Bite-O-Meter" 3rd product down.

[Erny]

99% (loose term - not statistically based) of aggression that you see is based in fear. Whether that be fear of the stimuli, fear of loss of status, etc. etc. When the aggression is occurring outside of the home, you can pretty much be certain it is based in fear (using the expression "fear aggression" in the way it is most commonly known).

I don't rely on body language to tell me what that dog is 'saying' (ie whether the aggression is fear or dominant). You can have a dog who is essentially afraid of the stimuli but has successfully practised the aggress behaviour to the extent that it is very confident the behaviour will keep him from harm - that he will win. Yet the motivating drive for the aggression remains the same : ie fear.

I'm not suggesting to not make note of body language - but just don't assume that because ears are forward; mouth is short; and so on, that the dog's aggression isn't based in fear. That might simply be showing you how confident the dog is about it being able to win or not.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Erny

[Inka3095]

Hmm, very interesting

Thanks all

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I meet two kinds of aggressive dogs.

The fear aggressive ones make obvious signs of wanting to back off for as long as they can, they go around the other side of their owner and sometimes they curl up a bit and hunch. And then when they decide they can't get away or the perceived threat gets to close they lunge snapping and growling. And the transition can be very quick.

But these dogs can usually be successfully introduced to my dog because they're not threatened by an upside down grovel dog. If they're scared of me, there might be nothing I can do. But what I try and usually works is let Frosty do her upside down thing. I crouch down too at a safe distance for the fear aggressive dog - ie it's still behind it's owner and hasn't gone into attack mode. If it then shows signs of interest instead of fear ie wants to come out (and we haven't come any closer), I encourage the owner to give it a bit of slack. And as long as me and Frosty stay still we're ok. But as long as that dog has some slack, it's first response has always been (in our experience) to nick back to it's position of safety behind the owner. If the owner doesn't give it slack, it may lunge on the end of the lead - basically because the owner told it to be afraid by keeping tension on the lead.

But we often get a good sniff and sometimes an invitation by the fearful dog, to play!

Then there is the other kind of dog. Just wants to attack and from the second it sees another dog, it is at the end of the lead, growling and barking, and anything that gets within reach - gets chomped, it doesn't let up at all if the other dog rolls over. This may still be a fear aggressive dog, but we have to leave it alone. Usually if the dog is barking and growling on the end of the lead - when we're far away, I won't let Frosty near it. And I get really mad at owners who think their barking growling attack mode dog will behave better off lead, because a lot of innocent dogs get bitten that way.

I've also met a couple of sight hound type dogs who were not socialised with other dogs or people when they were small and manageable and now think any other dog and small child is prey. Not just the SWF - all dogs are prey to those dogs and they're really bad news.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Mrs Rusty Bucket

[indigirl]

I owned a dog that was dog aggressive and human aggressive for 13yrs. In that time he killed another dog, he also bit 3 ppl. Spud was a bullmastiff x ridgeback and weighed 50kilos so a bite from him was no laughing matter. Its a miracle he lived to 13 really. I will describe his behaviour on one of the occasions where he inflicted a bite to an absolute Moron.

Spud was chained to my bed, there was a toddler gate on my bedroom doorway which was beyond the reach of the chain. At that time I had no bedroom door. Moron came to quote me on some fencing work. He saw Spud laying quietly in my bedroom and commented on what a beautiful looking dog he was. I agreed but told Moron he was aggressive etc. Moron announced "Im a dog trainer and its all about how you approach dogs that determines aggression". I told Moron that was a lovely theory but no matter how he approached Spud he would be bitten. Moron then pushes past me and walks towards my bedroom telling me 'Look Ill show you'.

I tell Moron that he has rocks in his head and to stay away from Spud. Moron ignores me walks through the toddler gate and approaches Spud with his hand stuck out. I call out to Moron that Spud is unpredictable and he WILL be bitten if he gets too close to him. Morons co-worker tells him to get away from the dog as well. Moron announces that Spud is calm and its fine. Jsut then he gets close enough to Spud so he is in reach of his chain. Spud lunges at Moron and bites his hand hard, his teeth meeting through his hand in 2 spots. Moron sprints from the room holding his injured hand. Moron's coworker is laughing so hard he can hardly breathe. They leave and drive to the hospital to get Morons hand attended to and get him a tetanus shot. I saw Morons co-worker down the street the following week and he was still laughing about it.

Whilst its kind of a funny story and it really did happen jsut as I described, the point is that Spud was laying quietly on the floor not displaying any outwardly aggressive behaviour. He calmly waited till Moron was within reach then in a flash he bit him. There was no growl, no visible or audible warning before he bit. The moment after the bite he was again lying quietly on the floor.

So please dont assume all aggressive dog's behave in a certain manner. Spud looked calm and settled, but he was just waiting for Moron to get within the reach of his chain.

[geo]

I owned a dog that was dog aggressive and human aggressive for 13yrs. In that time he killed another dog, he also bit 3 ppl. Spud was a bullmastiff x ridgeback and weighed 50kilos so a bite from him was no laughing matter. Its a miracle he lived to 13 really. I will describe his behaviour on one of the occasions where he inflicted a bite to an absolute Moron.

Spud was chained to my bed, there was a toddler gate on my bedroom doorway which was beyond the reach of the chain. At that time I had no bedroom door. Moron came to quote me on some fencing work. He saw Spud laying quietly in my bedroom and commented on what a beautiful looking dog he was. I agreed but told Moron he was aggressive etc. Moron announced "Im a dog trainer and its all about how you approach dogs that determines aggression". I told Moron that was a lovely theory but no matter how he approached Spud he would be bitten. Moron then pushes past me and walks towards my bedroom telling me 'Look Ill show you'.

I tell Moron that he has rocks in his head and to stay away from Spud. Moron ignores me walks through the toddler gate and approaches Spud with his hand stuck out. I call out to Moron that Spud is unpredictable and he WILL be bitten if he gets too close to him. Morons co-worker tells him to get away from the dog as well. Moron announces that Spud is calm and its fine. Jsut then he gets close enough to Spud so he is in reach of his chain. Spud lunges at Moron and bites his hand hard, his teeth meeting through his hand in 2 spots. Moron sprints from the room holding his injured hand. Moron's coworker is laughing so hard he can hardly breathe. They leave and drive to the hospital to get Morons hand attended to and get him a tetanus shot. I saw Morons co-worker down the street the following week and he was still laughing about it.

Whilst its kind of a funny story and it really did happen jsut as I described, the point is that Spud was laying quietly on the floor not displaying any outwardly aggressive behaviour. He calmly waited till Moron was within reach then in a flash he bit him. There was no growl, no visible or audible warning before he bit. The moment after the bite he was again lying quietly on the floor.

So please dont assume all aggressive dog's behave in a certain manner. Spud looked calm and settled, but he was just waiting for Moron to get within the reach of his chain.

That is funny!! some poeple just don't listen!

And you're quite right, some dogs can hide their aggression so well, my staffy would wag his tail and look all friendly to the unsuspecting dog he was just about to lunge at.

And in the other post Erny mentions confidence, which my current dogs have in spades, which again can be a handful. I think you just have to know your dog and limit the things that could possibly make him aggro.

[indigirl]

I should add Spud was only chained to my bed as I knew i had men coming over to quote me on the fencing work. This is not where Spud normally spent his time lol. He was a big sookie boy with me and fine with my own dogs. He lived inside and had the run of most of the house. Another toddler gate prevented him entering the room where the front door was. Again this was an added safety measure to protect Joe Public.