De-barking

[Steve]

I guess I'm sitting on the fence here between Moselle's oppinion and Possum Corner's. It shouldn't be a first resort, but making someone do EVERYTHING else first is cost prohibitive - especially when you KNOW some thing won't work ( eg, expensive screening for a dog who is barking at noises not sights) By the time the average dog owner has spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars, lost countless hours of sleep and had relations with their neighbours ruined, they are DONE with the dog and off it goes to the pound before it can cause any more stress and expense.

But why shouldn't it be a first resort? Why is it O.K. to desex before you do everything else in your power to stop unwanted matings and wandering etc but not O.K. to have their voice lowered if its driving you nuts?

Seriously do you know how many people will go to the extremes of what is needed to do to get permission to do the voice lowering before they simply say we cant stand it and send it to the pound?

You assume people love their pets as if they are children and will do anything they can to find the answer regardless of what the consequences are along the way and thats just not true.

If I have a barking dog why shouldn't I be able to simply say Id like its voice lowered before it becomes a problem ?

Its a minor op with few risks and no negative side effects - what's the problem?

[redkidsmum]

I guess I'm sitting on the fence here between Moselle's oppinion and Possum Corner's. It shouldn't be a first resort, but making someone do EVERYTHING else first is cost prohibitive - especially when you KNOW some thing won't work ( eg, expensive screening for a dog who is barking at noises not sights) By the time the average dog owner has spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars, lost countless hours of sleep and had relations with their neighbours ruined, they are DONE with the dog and off it goes to the pound before it can cause any more stress and expense.

But why shouldn't it be a first resort? Why is it O.K. to desex before you do everything else in your power to stop unwanted matings and wandering etc but not O.K. to have their voice lowered if its driving you nuts?

Seriously do you know how many people will go to the extremes of what is needed to do to get permission to do the voice lowering before they simply say we cant stand it and send it to the pound?

You assume people love their pets as if they are children and will do anything they can to find the answer regardless of what the consequences are along the way and thats just not true.

If I have a barking dog why shouldn't I be able to simply say Id like its voice lowered before it becomes a problem ?

Its a minor op with few risks and no negative side effects - what's the problem?

Steve I am so with you ..I have just had one girl done that was driving my husband ,Neigbours & myself to distraction ..set the rest of my little pack off ..was always yelling at them all ..even our parrot learnt to yell out "Be Quiet " "Stop it " ..NOW PEACE REIGNS ..she still has a small sexy woof ..ahhh

[mita]

[

Ta, Mita. I am glad that there is a way to have the dog debarked without having to rely on the complaint of neighbours! I am not so sure whether to agree that the system is indeed 'well balanced.' As Lucy's mama said....

I guess I'm sitting on the fence here between Moselle's oppinion and Possum Corner's. It shouldn't be a first resort, but making someone do EVERYTHING else first is cost prohibitive -

Moselle, you skated over the critical sentence in my post about the Qld system:

The process (Q'd) doesn't spell out what attempts must be made to stop the barking by other means.

There is no mention in this law about EVERYTHING must be tried. There is NO huge prescribed list.

I even mentioned that the attempts would depend on the circumstances of each case. Like, no one would be expected to build massive sound-proof walls....or undertake anything that they clearly could not afford.

As I've said, I worked thro' that process with an experienced vet....& there was only mention of managing in the existing home environment, not undertaking building. As to behavior management, we simply discussed the basics of what I was already doing. Which was judged fine.

The only new thing mentioned, was giving a try to a new medication (as a temporary measure). Fortunately, the problem was solved.

Only costs to me, were 2 consultations plus one prescription. Hardly $100.

The Victorian system looks far more prescriptive & involves more 'outside' people.

The Qld system is a matter between the treating vet & the owner.

I think the Qld one is far more balanced.

I got the impression, from talking with the treating vet, that most people who finally take their dogs to him asking for the debarking operation, have already done the best they can...on their own bat... in serious circumstances anyway. The thing that made my case a bit more sensitive to making sure that other options had been given a fair shot....was that my dog was a 'senior', small, short-nosed dog (where there's caution about putting it under an anaesthetic).

Edited June 27, 2010 by mita

[lilyandjazz]

I agree best decesion i ever made to get one of mine down, i think she actually had a better quality of life as she was not required to live in side , she could chase birds, bark at sticks etc, i think it really improved the quality of life.

I found a very good vet at Wollongong who had been recommended to me by one of my friends and she never had a problem after the operation and was back to her usual self within about 2 days.

[Steve]

Id also like to ad Ive never had a dog debarked in my life however, I think its time we put a stop to this situation which has become fashionable in Australia.

Someone says it cruel so before we know it there are laws stopping us. If they don't have evidence they make it up and because its them saying it then everyone follows like sheep.

Basically if you advocate mandatory desexing but fight debarking - you're a hypocrite- plain and simple.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Steve

[poodlefan]

Id also like to ad Ive never had a dog debarked in my life however, I think its time we put a stop to this situation which has become fashionable in Australia.

Someone says it cruel so before we know it there are laws stopping us. If they don't have evidence they make it up and because its them saying it then everyone follows like sheep.

Basically if you advocate mandatory desexing but fight debarking - your a hypocrite- plain and simple.

And as per usual in such situations Steve, those who condemn the process usually have no knowledge of the surgical process, no experience with a nuisance barker, fail to offer EFFECTIVE alternatives or just plain don't think people should own dogs.

I'm not a "fan" of the process but it sure beats seeing your dog baited or PTS.

Edited June 27, 2010 by poodlefan

[mita]

I have no problem with debarking being a regulated procedure, so long as the process simply comes down to a fairly stated request by an owner and the professional judgment of an experienced vet.

But I have a real problem with the Victorian law which puts huge barriers in the way of simply getting down to the merits of an individual case. Which should be just a matter between owner & vet.

[Steve]

I have no problem with debarking being a regulated procedure, so long as the process simply comes down to a fairly stated request by an owner and the professional judgment of an experienced vet.

But I have a real problem with the Victorian law which puts huge barriers in the way of simply getting down to the merits of an individual case. Which should be just a matter between owner & vet.

Yep me too. Since when should a government interfere with the relationship between an owner and their vet on whats best for their dog. Mandatory desexing and debarking are two obvious examples.

But what of some of the others?

How often we can mate a bitch,how old she should be the first time, how long between litters and the oldest she should be are a couple more.

Some puppy farmers mate a bitch when she is not in good condition - it makes no difference whether she had a litter 6 months ago or not if she isn't in good condition she shouldn't be mated but because some people who have no idea of what is best or if they do they don't care muck it up they bring in laws that prevent anyone being able to do it because someone says its better that way. Yet canine reproduction specialists say the opposite.

Did you know in NSW that if you don't want to have your dog vaccinated each year in line with the vaccine manufacturers directions you have to have a written note from your vet saying you don't have to get a vacc each year? Thats not a guideline its a minimum standard at law ! So all of us who do research and knock ourselves out trying to make the best educated decisions on whats best for our dogs and listen to experts far more knowledgeable and recognised in their field than those who put this stuff into law have to have a note form our vet to stay within the law! What a bloody joke.

Breeding dogs and cats.

8.2.1.6

Dogs must be vaccinated against distemper,hepatitis,parvo virus and canine cough in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations,unless with the written approval of a veterinary surgeon.

[Steve]

Oh but wait ! It gets even better. They have to have 20mins exercise each day.

[bonniek]

I would like to thank everyone for enlightening me on this subject..........it has been interesting reading for someone that had no idea.

Definately food for thought.

[jr_inoz]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

[Steve]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

[redkidsmum]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ???

[Steve]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ???

The judges dont care.Its the state law not anything to do with Vic Dogs - The RSPCA investigate and raid you. The charge is cruelty to animals.

[Dame Aussie]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ???

The judges dont care.Its the state law not anything to do with Vic Dogs - The RSPCA investigate and raid you. The charge is cruelty to animals.

Amazing. You alter your dog, under anaesthetic, in order to give it and everyone around you a good life and you're done for animal cruelty....report animal cruelty (real animal cruelty) to the RSPCA and you'd be lucky to even get anyone round there to have a look.

Think they need to get their priorities sorted out

[Steve]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ???

The judges dont care.Its the state law not anything to do with Vic Dogs - The RSPCA investigate and raid you. The charge is cruelty to animals.

Amazing. You alter your dog, under anaesthetic, in order to give it and everyone around you a good life and you're done for animal cruelty....report animal cruelty (real animal cruelty) to the RSPCA and you'd be lucky to even get anyone round there to have a look.

Think they need to get their priorities sorted out

Cant blame the RSPCA the government is responsible for introducing the laws and then the RSPCA are able to police it - Its stupid but you have to change the law not the policeman.

[WreckitWhippet]

Id also like to ad Ive never had a dog debarked in my life however, I think its time we put a stop to this situation which has become fashionable in Australia.

Someone says it cruel so before we know it there are laws stopping us. If they don't have evidence they make it up and because its them saying it then everyone follows like sheep.

Basically if you advocate mandatory desexing but fight debarking - you're a hypocrite- plain and simple.

thankfully there are still people like you around, who talk some sense

[mita]

Cant blame the RSPCA the government is responsible for introducing the laws and then the RSPCA are able to police it - Its stupid but you have to change the law not the policeman.

You're right...& actually the RSPCA is required to police it, if it's in the law.

My head has never recovered from reading the odd things in that particular Victorian legislation. I twitch at the memory.

[Moselle]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ???

The judges dont care.Its the state law not anything to do with Vic Dogs - The RSPCA investigate and raid you. The charge is cruelty to animals.

Amazing. You alter your dog, under anaesthetic, in order to give it and everyone around you a good life and you're done for animal cruelty....report animal cruelty (real animal cruelty) to the RSPCA and you'd be lucky to even get anyone round there to have a look.

Think they need to get their priorities sorted out

Cant blame the RSPCA the government is responsible for introducing the laws and then the RSPCA are able to police it - Its stupid but you have to change the law not the policeman.

Steve, wasn't the RSPCA's responsible for bringing the issue to the attention of the government in the very first place? The RSPCA should get their priorities right. I remember reporting a dog that was kept tied up to its kennel, only about a one metre long chain. They turned up at the place and came back with the report that there was nothing they could do given that the dog had water and shelter! So how was that dog better off living such a life in comparrison to a dog that has had its vocal chords cut and has all the freedom in the world? No sense of justice.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Moselle

[Steve]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Am I correct in saying that if you get a dog de-barked and you are in victoria (once you've jumped through all the hurdles), you cant show it?

I have no idea how all the breeders in Vic with 'talkative' breeds cope.

No you can show it if you have jumped through all of the hoops. But even if you try to dodge it and cut across a border where regs are not as tough - if the dog has ever lived in Victoria before the op you cant show it.

How would the judges know if the dog was debarked ???

The judges dont care.Its the state law not anything to do with Vic Dogs - The RSPCA investigate and raid you. The charge is cruelty to animals.

Amazing. You alter your dog, under anaesthetic, in order to give it and everyone around you a good life and you're done for animal cruelty....report animal cruelty (real animal cruelty) to the RSPCA and you'd be lucky to even get anyone round there to have a look.

Think they need to get their priorities sorted out

Cant blame the RSPCA the government is responsible for introducing the laws and then the RSPCA are able to police it - Its stupid but you have to change the law not the policeman.

Steve, wasn't the RSPCA's responsible for bringing the issue to the attention of the government in the very first place? The RSPCA should get their priorities right. I remember reporting a dog that was kept tied up to its kennel, only about a one metre long chain. They turned up at the place and came back with the report that there was nothing they could do given that the dog had water and shelter! So how was that dog better off living such a life in comparrison to a dog that has had its vocal chords cut and has all the freedom in the world? No sense of justice.

Yes they were responsible for the push to bring it in but that doesn't excuse a government for stupidity or a population for letting it go unchallenged.