De-barking

[Steve]

People advocate yanking out testicles and a uterus because its easier to look after a dog and might prevent unwanted litters - research conclusively shows its not better for the dog's health and it prevents them from doing what they instinctively would do if they were entire. Thats O.K. its a major operation with long lasting possible side effects including less longevity.In many places they have even taken the option of taking this decision from the owner by bringing in compulsory desexing .Yet when we talk about a simple operation no less of an issue than a tonsillectomy in humans which an owner may decide on for the safety of the animal and sanity of themselves and neighbours everyone start beating their chest and screaming cruelty! You have to let the thing get to a point where everyone hates the dog and is yelling about it before you can get a council report to say you have had council visits and complaints re a barking dog,sign stat decs and be treated like a criminal in order to do what you should be able to decide between you and your vet - whats best for the dog!

But its O.K. to tie em up 23 hours a day,keep em on concrete floors THEIR WHOLE LIFE or not socialise them with other dogs or people!

Do you know how many dogs are sent to pounds and bumped off because they wont shut up? :D ;) ;) :D :D :mad :mad

[Moselle]

People advocate yanking out testicles and a uterus because its easier to look after a dog and might prevent unwanted litters - research conclusively shows its not better for the dog's health and it prevents them from doing what they instinctively would do if they were entire. Thats O.K. its a major operation with long lasting possible side effects including less longevity.In many places they have even taken the option of taking this decision from the owner by bringing in compulsory desexing .Yet when we talk about a simple operation no less of an issue than a tonsillectomy in humans which an owner may decide on for the safety of the animal and sanity of themselves and neighbours everyone start beating their chest and screaming cruelty! You have to let the thing get to a point where everyone hates the dog and is yelling about it before you can get a council report to say you have had council visits and complaints re a barking dog,sign stat decs and be treated like a criminal in order to do what you should be able to decide between you and your vet - whats best for the dog!

But its O.K. to tie em up 23 hours a day,keep em on concrete floors THEIR WHOLE LIFE or not socialise them with other dogs or people!

Do you know how many dogs are sent to pounds and bumped off because they wont shut up? :D ;) ;) :D :D :mad :mad

I share your sentiments, Steve :D . What the heck happened to common sense? As you said, there is far worse taking place in a dog's life than debarking, how many dogs have met their death because they won't cease barking? I would hate to imagine.

[Are You Serious Jo]

To be honest, I don't even see why it has to be a last resort before being PTS. By then your neighbours hate you, you dislike your dog and most would have passed the problem on. The dog doesn't know it isn't loud, it continues to yap it just doesn't drive every insane. Dog barking is the number one complaint to council and among neighbours I think, yet you are made out to be a criminal if you debark or want to. Should be done more often IMO.

[Cheyd]

hhmm thank you all for enlightening me, for some reason I have always thought it was cruel to have dogs debarked.

Thank dog I have never had to live with a dog that wont stop barking, so have never had to deal with that level of frustration. I suppose out of ignorance I assumed that the raspy bark that dogs have after the operation hurt them, sort of like when I have a funny throat, my voice changes and it hurts lol so I thought it was the same in dogs.

[mita]

I suppose out of ignorance I assumed that the raspy bark that dogs have after the operation hurt them, sort of like when I have a funny throat, my voice changes and it hurts lol so I thought it was the same in dogs.

I was a bit tempted to get debarked (pitch-lowered) myself after learning that the 2 tibs I thought had sexy voices, had been debarked.

But it has to be done by a skilled & experienced vet...as they were.

[Moselle]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Moselle

[mita]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria?

Whoever drew up the animal cruelty laws in Victoria, had a vocabulary problem. Debarking is labelled a prohibited procedure in that legislation. But the same legislation describes the circumstances/conditions/process for when it is permitted in Victoria. Which means it's a regulated procedure....& here's the exacting process set out:

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.nsf/c...rinter+Friendly

The Q'ld law just describes debarking as a regulated procedure....& sets out the conditions and process which apply here.

Edited June 26, 2010 by mita

[Moselle]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria?

Whoever drew up the animal cruelty laws in Victoria, had a vocabulary problem. Debarking is labelled a prohibited procedure in that legislation. But the same legislation describes the circumstances/conditions/process for when it is permitted in Victoria. Which means it's a regulated procedure....& here's the exacting process set out:

http://www.dpi.vic.gov.au/dpi/nrenfa.nsf/c...rinter+Friendly

The Q'ld law just describes debarking as a regulated procedure....& sets out the conditions and process which apply here.

Thank you so much, mita.

[Steve]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

If the dog has ever lived in Victoria before you can't get it debarked anywhere as you have to go through the process first even if you get it done interstate. You have go via the council usually because the neighbours are upset but theoretically you could speak with them and explain the dog is driving your family nuts and ask for them to put through the paperwork. Without this you cannot get the dog debarked.

Then a vet that does them and is happy about it is the president of the local RSPCA in Wodonga.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Steve

[Moselle]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

If the dog has ever lived in Victoria before you can get it debarked anywhere you have to go through the process. You have go via the council usually because the neighbours are upset but theoretically you could speak with them and explain the dog is driving your family nuts and ask for them to put through the paperwork. Without this you cannot get the dog debarked.

Then a vet that does them and is happy about it is the president of the local RSPCA in Wodonga.

Thank you Steve. It is amazing how many steps one has to take before having one's pet debarked, it is pretty ludicrous. The most absurd is the requirement to have a written complaint from the neighbours; this isn't always the darn case as I do take steps in making sure that the problem does not escalate to this besides which I happen to live at least 600 metres away from the neighbours and the maremma is kept in an insulated (noise proofed and air conditioned) garage when a reason presents itself that results in her incessant barking. How I would love to kick the very individuals responsible for making the debarking issue more difficult up the backside whilst wearing my steel capped boots! Bloody useless, idiotic morons!

As you said, I could speak to the neighbours in having them put in the necessary paper work but I wish these steps were not necessary. FFS, how did things escalate to this? Why the heck does one need to prove that a dog is a barker via complaints from the neighbours?? The mere fact that the owner of a dog/s is prepared to take steps to have it debarked is not proof enough that the dog needs to be quietened down? I think that the only questions that should be posed is whether sufficient training has taken place, whether a citronella collar has been used....and if these steps have been adopted and the dog is still barking endlessly then it should be a candidate for a debarking op! What is a better option ???? To have the dog destroyed??!! How many dogs have already been discarded or destroyed because of their incessant barking???!!! I am feeling a little hot under the collar right now, okay time for a little breather, perhaps I should take a walk outside and enjoy the cold air.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Moselle

[Moselle]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

If the dog has ever lived in Victoria before you can get it debarked anywhere you have to go through the process. You have go via the council usually because the neighbours are upset but theoretically you could speak with them and explain the dog is driving your family nuts and ask for them to put through the paperwork. Without this you cannot get the dog debarked.

Then a vet that does them and is happy about it is the president of the local RSPCA in Wodonga.

Are there other vets that perform this operation? Bloody hell, Wodonga is miles and miles up the road!

[Steve]

What states is debarking allowed? I suppose it's illegal in Victoria? Does anyone know of a good vet that does performs debarking operations in Victoria? Please pm if possible as I have a maremma sheepdog that absolutely despairs me; I have tried all avenues, training, citronella barking collar, shock collar and nothing but nothing seems to work.

If the dog has ever lived in Victoria before you can get it debarked anywhere you have to go through the process. You have go via the council usually because the neighbours are upset but theoretically you could speak with them and explain the dog is driving your family nuts and ask for them to put through the paperwork. Without this you cannot get the dog debarked.

Then a vet that does them and is happy about it is the president of the local RSPCA in Wodonga.

Are there other vets that perform this operation? Bloody hell, Wodonga is miles and miles up the road!

Probably but they are hard to find. Look for an older vet some of the young ones have been brain washed.

[PossumCorner]

Haven't read the whole thread. Steve's post said it all and said it best I think. When young Rheneas was de-barked about 5 years ago, it was too late to improve situation with some neighbours, too much had been said to re-build any bridges. So we still don't socialise: very cool and polite. Council were great, supportive: just had to get simple proof that his barking had a dog behaviourist stumped, and prove neighbours' complaints, and list other methods tried (like anti-barking collars and RSPCA suggestions of screening from road movements etc. - all good but ineffective).

Brilliant vet. Happy dog. He still joyously barks all day or all night or both, and is spared being told 'quiet' 24/7, He loves the reaction to his neurotic warnings "Did a leaf fall off a tree, wow you tell that leaf Rheneas". Much more fun to live with a dog that's allowed to be himself and not have to constantly control and criticise a behaviour he cannot help.

[PossumCorner]

.... Why the heck does one need to prove that a dog is a barker via complaints from the neighbours?? The mere fact that the owner of a dog/s is prepared to take steps to have it debarked is not proof enough that the dog needs to be quietened down? ....

Moselle I pretty much agree with the restrictions, the "jumping through hoops" because if these roadblocks weren't there, too many people would take it as an easy option and not bother trying some basic training, barking collar, behaviourist advice. Which in most cases can work. And the system does work to stop multi dog owners from "bulk de-barking". I know some breeders used to bulk debark their breeding stock so their permits were not at risk. There is no perfect answer. I am certainly not anti de-barking, but I don't think it should be allowed without some controls, or some form of application to be considered. Otherwise it becomes a lazy way out, and that's not fair. It is a bit like trial without jury, or declaring guilty without a trial. The requirements give borderline dogs a better chance of owners first looking for another way, even if it takes a bit of training time or inconvenience or even expense heaven forbid.

[Lucy's mama]

I guess I'm sitting on the fence here between Moselle's oppinion and Possum Corner's. It shouldn't be a first resort, but making someone do EVERYTHING else first is cost prohibitive - especially when you KNOW some thing won't work ( eg, expensive screening for a dog who is barking at noises not sights) By the time the average dog owner has spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars, lost countless hours of sleep and had relations with their neighbours ruined, they are DONE with the dog and off it goes to the pound before it can cause any more stress and expense.

[WoofnHoof]

Not to mention the extra stress on the dog as well constantly being corrected and having to adjust to each new 'management' technique. I agree that it shouldn't be a first resort but I don't know whether it should be a last resort either. Hard to say where to draw the line though.

[mita]

The Qld law on debarking has stages which must be worked thro'....but it comes down to information provided to the treating vet, who has to make a professional judgment.

Here's the 2 source options for that, either the owner has got a noise abatement order from the council, or the owner's initiating steps to ask for the operation:

[1] A nuisance abatement notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1994 or equivalent

OR

[2]an appropriate notice... signed by each owner of the dog asking the veterinary surgeon to perform the operation and stating that the dog's barking is a nuisance, that attempts have been made and unsuccessful (for each attempt the nature of the attempt); and enough details of the attempt to allow the veterinary surgeon to form a view.

When the owners take the initiative, as in 2, there's no need to gather any written complaints from neighbours. Which is sensible, given these may not be approachable or cooperative people. And also the owners themselves may be the main people who are badly affected by the barking.

The process doesn't spell out what attempts must be made to stop the barking by other means. That makes sense because they would depend on the circumstances.

When I took a dog to the skilled vet here, it actually was a good learning experience. After we discussed the reasons for the barking & what had been done, he then suggested trying medication once more. Turned out to be one that humans use & I had to get it from the chemist.

In the end, the operation was not needed. But, in many cases it is.

I thought it was a well balanced system they've come up with. Balances the welfare of the dog, with the welfare of the owners & the people living nearby. And puts the decision-making on the professionalism of the vet & the cooperation of the owner.

Edited June 26, 2010 by mita

[mish13]

Its interesting reading this thread and I usually hide under the carpet on this topic as it is usually meet with lots of criticism.

I would never even thought of debarking except one of my dogs breeders has had quite a few of her dogs done. They were all fine just sounded like they had a cold.

I have four dogs and three are debarked, and this is the ONLY reason I still have four dogs with the council and all my neighbors blessings.

My dogs bark all they want and don't upset anyone, if they had not been done I would have had to re home or PTS some of them. Oscar is not a barker so he has not been done.

I had a great vet perform the operation and my husband and I just went away for a few hours then went back and picked them all up. I am sure they were sore for a little while but it was the last choice I had.

My dogs get walked everyday and they live inside but they still love to bark at all the native birds and any other dog that barks in our area. (now it doesn't mater)

The only problem I have is Coco my toy poodle has NO sound at all, so I am always conscious of where she is when I take her out. If she is off lead I watch her all the time, I have a fear she will fall down a hole or something similar and I wont be able to find her.

[Moselle]

The Qld law on debarking has stages which must be worked thro'....but it comes down to information provided to the treating vet, who has to make a professional judgment.

Here's the 2 source options for that, either the owner has got a noise abatement order from the council, or the owner's initiating steps to ask for the operation:

[1] A nuisance abatement notice under the Environmental Protection Act 1994 or equivalent

OR

[2]an appropriate notice... signed by each owner of the dog asking the veterinary surgeon to perform the operation and stating that the dog's barking is a nuisance, that attempts have been made and unsuccessful (for each attempt the nature of the attempt); and enough details of the attempt to allow the veterinary surgeon to form a view.

When the owners take the initiative, as in 2, there's no need to gather any written complaints from neighbours. Which is sensible, given these may not be approachable or cooperative people. And also the owners themselves may be the main people who are badly affected by the barking.

The process doesn't spell out what attempts must be made to stop the barking by other means. That makes sense because they would depend on the circumstances.

When I took a dog to the skilled vet here, it actually was a good learning experience. After we discussed the reasons for the barking & what had been done, he then suggested trying medication once more. Turned out to be one that humans use & I had to get it from the chemist.

In the end, the operation was not needed. But, in many cases it is.

I thought it was a well balanced system they've come up with. Balances the welfare of the dog, with the welfare of the owners & the people living nearby. And puts the decision-making on the professionalism of the vet & the cooperation of the owner.

Ta, Mita. I am glad that there is a way to have the dog debarked without having to rely on the complaint of neighbours! I am not so sure whether to agree that the system is indeed 'well balanced.' As Lucy's mama said....

I guess I'm sitting on the fence here between Moselle's oppinion and Possum Corner's. It shouldn't be a first resort, but making someone do EVERYTHING else first is cost prohibitive - especially when you KNOW some thing won't work ( eg, expensive screening for a dog who is barking at noises not sights) By the time the average dog owner has spent hundreds and hundreds of dollars, lost countless hours of sleep and had relations with their neighbours ruined, they are DONE with the dog and off it goes to the pound before it can cause any more stress and expense.

It is most definitely cost prohibitive for a lot of people not to mention that alot of people simply do not have the required patience to exhaust every avenue first and then still consider having the dog debarked after having spent x number of $$$$$ and problems not to mention problems with the neighbours. I have lost count of the costs associated with having to try and eradicate my dog's persistant barking. Training for 2 years which did not work, a citronella collar which cost around $200, replacing of the batteries and the citronella spray....and that only worked for the duration of a couple of months, she then became accustomed to the spray and barked to her heart's delight, a shock collar was next in line, another $220....once again, after 2 months she decided that she would sooner put up with the jolt than shut her mouth....to the point that she sustained "burns" to her neck and required veterinary treatment. She now resides in a garage that has been noise proofed and temperature controlled as it would otherwise get too hot in the summer months. This would have been one dog that would have been pts had she belonged elsewhere! How many other dogs met their fate in such a grim way simply because of a few do-gooders who simply have no idea what they are talking about!

[~Midniara~]

What happens during de-barking -- the vocal chord tissues are removed?

yep they cut away the vocal cords. Normally there is still a bit of scar tissue left allowing the dog to emitt a low hoarse sound. There is a lot of negative stigma attached to this procedure but I have no idea why. Its a fairly simple operation and the dog still thinks he can bark so I dont see the harm in it for chronic barkers. Its just like a dog with no balls, he doesnt miss them.

De-barking isn't as bad as it sounds If I Had a dog that would not stop barking and had tried every other avenue I would most certainly get it debarked. It's not done without anesthetic you know.. it's just a little operation. Desexing in my opinion sounds more full on!

I totally agree. It is not as cruel as some make it out to be. In fact it is more invasive and painful to de-sex than it is to de-bark.