Do You Cop Out?

[huski]

SecretKei... I have so been there and I completely know how you feel. It is worth it in the end! You guys have come so far!

[Red Fox]

SecretKei... I have so been there and I completely know how you feel. It is worth it in the end! You guys have come so far!

Yep I know. That's why the Super Beagle is such an inspiration ;)

[huski]

Haha I don't know about inspirational but at least we've come through the otherside relatively

unscathed ;)

I found the hardest thing was not comparing her to other dogs. She'll never be a high drive Malinois and comparing her to other dogs will just make it harder! (I still do it though just not as much)

[wuffles]

I have one really low-drive, mellow dog and one puppy who would train all day if you let her ;) I understand exactly what you mean!

I took Satch through 3 levels of obedience at our local club but he just never enjoyed the classes unless he was socialising. He passed quite easily because he's so mellow, and on exam days he was only expected to work for a few minutes. He has never had any level of focus though, he just went along with what was happening until he couldn't be bothered anymore ;)

Ava is a completely different dog and will hopefully do well in obedience and agility! I train a lot with her at home. Most of the time Satchmo just lies on his bed and watches. Sometimes he comes and sits with us while we're training and "demands" treats by sticking his head in the way of the training session.... ask him to do anything, though, and he just looks at you going "no... I just want treats. Gimme." :D

So Ava gets training sessions and Satch gets patting sessions... they both seem to enjoy this arrangement

[Agility Dogs]

Someone told me that I would be a better trainer if I can make Bubby ENJOY training and improve his motivation!

I would listen to that advice........if you want to train Bubby and if you want to improve as a trainer FOR YOU, if you want to do it because of what someone else thinks then you need to question if you are doing it for the right reasons?

My boy CK falls into this category - he is the quietest most laid back dog in the world. BUT as we work more and more he is really finding his Border Collieness and is starting to enjoy work more as well.

IMO it's not about forcing a dog to do something they don't want to do, it's about finding a way to encourage them to enjoy it and working with them to maximise the potential that they do have.

[Lucy's mama]

Bubby sounds a lot like Lucy. Perfect manners, no formal training! It took me weeks to teach her 'down' and 30 seconds to teach her 'hoy' means ''stop what your doing and don't ever do that again!'' (and she never does)

I tried obedience with her and she just looked at me like 'why? how about I just lay down and watch instead?''

[MolassesLass]

Someone told me that I would be a better trainer if I can make Bubby ENJOY training and improve his motivation!

I would listen to that advice........if you want to train Bubby and if you want to improve as a trainer FOR YOU, if you want to do it because of what someone else thinks then you need to question if you are doing it for the right reasons?

My boy CK falls into this category - he is the quietest most laid back dog in the world. BUT as we work more and more he is really finding his Border Collieness and is starting to enjoy work more as well.

IMO it's not about forcing a dog to do something they don't want to do, it's about finding a way to encourage them to enjoy it and working with them to maximise the potential that they do have.

Having met CK - he is nothing like the type of dog I'm talking about when discussing mellow dogs.

[spyda62]

I struggle with the training situation with my dogs as well. I train them both but definately enjoy training with Jade more than Tank.

Tank is a fantastic dog. She is however DA, and I always have to be aware of what is going on around me with other dogs. She tries hard but, it takes her a while to "get things" and it is alot of work to keep her motivated.

Jade on the other hand is such a happy go lucky type dog. When training she works so hard and she just loves it. Motivating her is so easy...show her a piece of grass and she will work for it.

At the end of the day though...its all fun!

[Bubitty]

Wuffles, Satch sounds sooo much like Bubby! Bubby is like "Ma! Aren't I pretty? Feed the pretty golden some food Ma!" ;)

[sas]

So my question is have you ever had a hard to train dog and did you cop out? Do you feel guilty for copping out?

Na, I just learn more about different methods.

[corvus]

Someone told me that I would be a better trainer if I can make Bubby ENJOY training and improve his motivation!

I would agree with that. It doesn't mean you should spend more time training Bubby and improving his motivation, or that you need to, but the hard dogs teach you things the training nuts can't. I definitely spend more time on Erik than I do on Kivi, but the difference is mostly in what Erik needs to learn that Kivi does naturally. So I spend extra time teaching Erik to lie quietly and that kind of thing, but obviously Kivi can do that very well anyway and doesn't need the training. But when it comes to tricks and fun skills, I spend about the same amount of time with them.

Getting Kivi to the point where he really wanted to train took a long time. He was always happy to participate, but it took many months and improving my clicker training skills considerably to get him to really want it. He now sits in the kitchen when I'm training Erik and barks because he wants his turn. He refuses to leave the training area when I tell him it's Erik's turn again. I have to physically push him out and throw treats on the kitchen floor to try to add at least some incentive/reward. He is always ready to train, now, and he always brings all the enthusiasm he's got to a training session. It's not a lot, but it's the best he can do and so I am proud of him. He gets very excited and forgets what to do and I have to baby him along and be patient. I learnt a whole new method of training just to make it less frustrating and therefore more enjoyable for him. I learnt things I have decided to teach Erik as well.

Erik can do way more than Kivi can, learns it in a fraction of the time, and does it with a lot more energy. Erik is dead easy to shape, he's creative, persistent, and I kind of wish I'd got him first because he's much easier to clicker train. He gives me lots of things to click and doesn't get frustrated as easily. But Erik is no credit to me as a trainer. He's easy. I'd have to be a particularly bad trainer to not get a lot of Erik. But Kivi I am truly proud of. Training him is hard, and getting enthusiasm out of him even harder. That's how I learn. Overcoming difficulties.

[dogdayz]

Ive an easy to train hard to trial dog, who i basically retired from competition a couple of years back as she hated it...since then i brought her out for a bit of fun at a couple of herding trials last year and she gained her HSA title despite not training afor a long time, and this year she has passed the first leg towards her TSD. Basically i use her for fun nowadays, but most of the time she is simply the dog that jumps in the car to come along for a ride.

Ive recently begun working my weim again in obedience. I trialled him as a 1 year old but he was not mature and i got put off the whole thing worrying what he would do and hiding behind the excuse i want to get her passed first (something that will never happen as her loathing for the obedience ring is so apparent). Now at 6 i am starting to work him and enjoying as he is a much calmer composed thoughtful dog now. So he was my cop out dog for a few years. I am now contemplating trying to train him retrieve, something we tried many time by many methods way back as a young dog.

I guess i have also done a few different sports to try others, and effectively walked away and come back to obedience, and am contemplating giving agility another go with my young aussie.

From my experience its the ahrd dogs that teach you most, for example in tracking i learned much more from a poor tracking collie rough than from a weim who put his nose down and ran the track first go and who rarely hesitates or needs assistance. I am now learning even more from a very unmotivated aussie and having to adapt to try and suit him.

i dont think its a cop out just waiting time for the dog and me to have the right state of mind for each sport.

Edited June 24, 2010 by dogdayz

[Bubitty]

I actually think I know how to increase his motivation (based on advice and everything I have read) but I am not prepared to do it because I find it disagreeable with my principles of raising him.

[megan_]

I actually think I know how to increase his motivation (based on advice and everything I have read) but I am not prepared to do it because I find it disagreeable with my principles of raising him.

Can you elaborate Bub??

[Bubitty]

I actually think I know how to increase his motivation (based on advice and everything I have read) but I am not prepared to do it because I find it disagreeable with my principles of raising him.

Can you elaborate Bub??

I have been advised to cut back his toys (make him want toys more) and also to stop giving him high value treats on a daily basis.

Whilst I can see that this would make him more motivated for toys or food, I enjoy lavishing things on him so I could never personally do this.

Of course I would have to re-examine my methods and approach him in the different way to how I train Bitty but I suspect one of the elements as to why he doesn’t train well is because he gets most things for free anyway. I dont think I can ever reward him enough.

[OSoSwift]

It depends on what you want to do with him and why you are training.

I train my dogs because I love it, I like the challenges and trying different things.

I have one dog who would work until he dropped and will train daily, the other enjoys what we do, but you can see definately when her interest is starting to waiver. She also trains and learns really well when she is trained around every 3 days. I try different things to motivate her, but I also try to do what makes her work happily and stop training while still wanting more.

I do think though if your dog has good house manners, is happy and not destructive and bored, then if you don't want to train then don't. Our aged Stafford is easy to live with and a pleasure to have around. When my bitch was back at her breeders for her matronly duties I decided to put some obedience training into him. Lets just say he is not the sharpest tool in the shed, he tried and happily, but progress was excrutiatingly slow and I gave up as I was doing it for me not for him. He is still extremely easy to have around and very happy.

I also have a 5 year old horse that is not started under saddle - I have clicked trained many things on the ground including dumbell retrieving, the farrier said - I have never hear a horse complain it isn't being ridden yet! As long as they have house manners who cares what anyone else thinks!

Edited June 24, 2010 by Rommi n Lewis

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Hi Bub

I've been given the same advice and conflicting advice... about withholding toys or limiting them and also limiting the favourite treats.

I find a variation works - ie have a novelty toy/treat - that only comes out on special occasions. So while the dog might love roast chicken and you can use this all you want (waistlines permitting), bring out the chopped metwurst (or other favourite flavour) for special occasions.

Same with toys. Have one special toy that only comes out for training sessions. Doesn't matter what the toy is, you make it special by how you play with it and how much you let the dog play with it.

Paul McGreevy writes in a "modern dogs life" about how professional dog trainers - of police dogs or quarantine dogs etc will often remove all the fun things in a dog's environment including a couple of meals to up the drive, but Paul says there is research to say that dog that lives in an "enriched environment" does better at training. So there you go. Times are changing.

Susan Garrett has an interesting video about upping the drive of a dog by being a "bad dog trainer" it's on her channel and quite funny to watch. Essentially the more (loud) excitement and energy you put into the play, the more the dog will fire up.

Mellow dog - especially when you're not training is a great thing and would be why I chose a cattle dog cross over a kelpie or BC - cos they're reknown for being demanding not mellow all the time - where is the off switch when you want it?

So I like to be able to switch between Mellow, and High Drive / Excitement when I want, though I don't mind being invited by my dog (some say this is bad), occasionally because I often get completely distracted/hypnotised by computer or some task or project and I need the interruption.

But if I really really can't get what I want/need - I might try withholding everything for a while and see if it works.

[Bubitty]

So I like to be able to switch between Mellow, and High Drive / Excitement when I want, though I don't mind being invited by my dog (some say this is bad), occasionally because I often get completely distracted/hypnotised by computer or some task or project and I need the interruption.

I am terribly guilty of this! I simply cannot say no to a play bowing Bitty, leering at me with a toy in her mouth despite the rules telling me I should play on my terms.

I have been known to do chores with one hand while tugging with another! I haven’t broken her though!

[Kavik]

I understand how you feel Bub.

Diesel is not as interested in training as Kaos and Zoe. His allergies make him feel lethargic a lot of the time, and he is not that motivated and not as much fun to train. He also doesn't need it as he is pretty easy going and not going to cause problems if I don't train him.

I do a little bit of training with him, more for me than him. I keep it simple and upbeat, and am finding that he is having more fun than when I tried to be more serious about it and giving me better responses too.

At the moment I do the two food game to start with - helps with motivation and with recalls, then I may just call him and run with him (I tried to do circle work for agility with him for fun - he doesn't turn well - so we do straight lines instead :D ), throwing food between my legs to encourage faster straight recalls, sending to reward bag, come fores with close straight front (as he really likes these) and finishes (another one he really likes). So really only bits and pieces.

ETA: I also walk him through a ladder for rear end awareness and starting to teach him to back up - I just do these with all the dogs, he might as well have a go

Edited June 24, 2010 by Kavik

[huski]

I did the whole restrict my dogs access to things like toys, walks, treats etc when I was first building her drive. It wasn't forever, just once she started getting addicted to the game, and now we can even go for a walk and do a drive session too.

I would be interested in how Paul Mcgreevy defines a dog who has a more "enriched" environment as better trained.