Do You Cop Out?

[corvus]

I have been advised to cut back his toys (make him want toys more) and also to stop giving him high value treats on a daily basis.

Meh, I never did that. I don't think it's necessary. Says the woman who is currently deliberately making her hare hungry so he'll be motivated to come out and talk to her... Okay, amend that, I don't think it's necessary for just working with a pet dog unless the dog is in a bad place emotionally and needs motivation to even interact with you. My hare is naturally sort of in that state. He's a herbivore and so doesn't have much motivation to work for food. He knows it'll be there when he's ready for it. For Kivi, all I had to do was make it really easy for him to win treats. I didn't even use amazing treats. Just a very high reward rate for very easy things and built from there. I taught him to target because it's the least stressful way I know to tell him what he needs to do to get a treat. He likes it when it's very easy. The easier it is the more he likes it. When he knows he can win he likes to play the game.

Here's a recent video of a little targeting and some tug:

There's a bit near the end where the tug kinda hits him on the face and then it's behind him and he has this look on his face that says "....Huh?" Cracks me up. That's my Kivi. He doesn't know what's going on half the time. :D

I would hazard a guess that "enriched" means opportunities to perform natural behaviours. It's pretty moderate stuff in the literature. Things to chew on, a more natural substrate if the dog is lucky, being housed with another dog... That sort of thing. Social deprivation in particular can have long-term effects on a social animal's tendency to be anxious.

[corvus]

Hah, I thought there'd been a beagle study on it, but I thought maybe I'd made that up. I imagine this is the study Paul was referencing: http://muskrat.middlebury.edu/lt/cr/facult...0NBA%202005.pdf

ETA Here's a different one: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal...=1&SRETRY=0

Edited June 24, 2010 by corvus

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

I would be interested in how Paul Mcgreevy defines a dog who has a more "enriched" environment as better trained.

Did I write that.

I meant "easier to train" or "or train better" ie given two dogs, one has a nice home environment (not the same as living at someone's home), and one has one with with nothing but the basics (clean? shelter?). The one that has a nice environment will be easier to train or train with better results or something. I might have to go find the book. Will see if I can find the research.

I suppose one possible reason would be that a dog in a boring environment would probably sleep while not training where as the other might play a bit and get fitter. It would also have a more engaged brain, and spend more time thinking which would be good for training too.

Free shaping - where you clicker train anything a dog does, is also good for getting the dog to think. I haven't done much of this so when I'm trying to get her to do something new, I get a lot of sits and drops and not much else.

[huski]

Meh, I never did that. I don't think it's necessary. Says the woman who is currently deliberately making her hare hungry so he'll be motivated to come out and talk to her... Okay, amend that, I don't think it's necessary for just working with a pet dog unless the dog is in a bad place emotionally and needs motivation to even interact with you. My hare is naturally sort of in that state. He's a herbivore and so doesn't have much motivation to work for food. He knows it'll be there when he's ready for it. For Kivi, all I had to do was make it really easy for him to win treats. I didn't even use amazing treats. Just a very high reward rate for very easy things and built from there. I taught him to target because it's the least stressful way I know to tell him what he needs to do to get a treat. He likes it when it's very easy. The easier it is the more he likes it. When he knows he can win he likes to play the game.

Here's a recent video of a little targeting and some tug:

I guess it depends on what you want from your dog. If you're happy with Kivi working like that, and that's all you want from him, then you wouldn't need to make any extra effort to increase his value for certain things. He's not working in drive which is what I want with my dog. I want 110% and I couldn't have achieved that had I made high value treats and toys and everything my dog enjoys readily accessible, especially when you couldn't force food down her throat if there was a scent around.

I am talking about a dog who, even in a low distraction environment, was very disinterested;

Vs now, this was on Monday night.

That's the kind of enthusiasm and difference I wanted to see in my dog. We're not talking extreme deprivation, just intentionally making sure she would be more active (because I restricted exercise) and more keen (because I restricted access to high value training food).

I would hazard a guess that "enriched" means opportunities to perform natural behaviours. It's pretty moderate stuff in the literature. Things to chew on, a more natural substrate if the dog is lucky, being housed with another dog... That sort of thing. Social deprivation in particular can have long-term effects on a social animal's tendency to be anxious.

I wasn't questioning what enriched meant. I was more interested in the level each dog was trained to for the comparison to be drawn. MRB compared working dogs like police dogs and I wanted to know what the more enriched dogs were - were they working dogs too?

Besides which, no one has mentioned completely depriving a dog - just limiting it's access it rewards.

I would be interested in how Paul Mcgreevy defines a dog who has a more "enriched" environment as better trained.

Did I write that.

I meant "easier to train" or "or train better" ie given two dogs, one has a nice home environment (not the same as living at someone's home), and one has one with with nothing but the basics (clean? shelter?). The one that has a nice environment will be easier to train or train with better results or something. I might have to go find the book. Will see if I can find the research.

I suppose one possible reason would be that a dog in a boring environment would probably sleep while not training where as the other might play a bit and get fitter. It would also have a more engaged brain, and spend more time thinking which would be good for training too.

But that's a big difference between what Bub was saying about simply restricting her dog's access to toys and high value food.

[Bubitty]

Corvus, in Bubby's current state, he will laugh at me and drop if I didn't offer him anything at least up to the level of yum cha. That dog will not work for any treat! :D

ETA: Not sure about this whole restriction thing but for me, Bitty can eat pie for free and still work for a tug. Bubby eats pie and will look at me like I am a moron for offering him chopped apple.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Bub

[huski]

ETA: Not sure about this whole restriction thing but for me, Bitty can eat pie for free and still work for a tug. Bubby eats pie and will look at me like I am a moron for offering him chopped apple.

Bub some dogs are more naturally driven to work for us, and if Bitty is more prey driven than food driven that she will still want to tug even if she's had a food treat is not unusual.

[Kavik]

None of my dogs get treats or toys for free. Even though I only compete with one of them.

[corvus]

I guess it depends on what you want from your dog. If you're happy with Kivi working like that, and that's all you want from him, then you wouldn't need to make any extra effort to increase his value for certain things. He's not working in drive which is what I want with my dog.

You have it with one of your dogs, as I see it. The other one is just for fun. Although why is beyond me, considering you claim he has high prey drive and you're always saying you want a drivey dog to work with in prey drive. You apparently haven't done anything about his DA? That's not what I would want with my dog. I guess not everyone has the same priorities. For me, drive be damned. I'm looking for a happy dog that really wants to train.

I have 100% focus from Kivi (which is all that's numerically possible, as it happens) and I didn't need drive to get it. He's never gonna be a prancer or a tail wagger, even. But when he looks at me with his eyes bright and his tail up and bouncing, I can't help but feel it doesn't get much better than that. He has a different way of expressing his joy and excitement to, say, Erik. But that doesn't mean he's not feeling it. Catching a toy like he did in that video, believe it or not he only does that when he's so excited he can barely contain himself. Any other time and he'll duck. And jumping up? I had to have him sitting right on threshold -as in it was questionable if he could have even done a sit in that state- to teach him that at all, because that's the only time he'll jump. It took months of trying before I found something that could get him excited enough to do it, and it sure as hell wasn't food, or a little deprivation. And it's not something I can use whenever I like because Kivi can't sustain that level of arousal for long. For Kivi, jumping is about the equivalent of Erik breaking a down before being released to leap at the toy in my hand because he's got too aroused to contain himself properly. Understanding Kivi is the hardest thing about training him. I accept that he's never going to be a performance dog, but that doesn't mean he can't find training the funnest thing in the world. It just means he won't look like a dog "in drive" when he does. Who cares? He gets as excited about training as he does about anything in life. I think that's beautiful and I can't wipe the grin off my face when we train together. I think if that's all I want from him, it is the world, and he's given it to me. There's nothing more to ask for and I feel honoured.

Bub, I was pretty amazed at how Kivi's motivation increased with a very high reward rate and some jack-potting. It wasn't the treat that mattered, it was how easy the training was and how often he was rewarded.

[huski]

You have it with one of your dogs, as I see it. The other one is just for fun. Although why is beyond me, considering you claim he has high prey drive and you're always saying you want a drivey dog to work with in prey drive.

I do prey drive training with him, almost every day. He's not as seriously prey driven as, say, a Mal, which is what I am referring to when I say I'd like to see what it's like to train a highly prey driven dog.

You apparently haven't done anything about his DA?

Yes of course Corvus, all dogs who are DA can be completely cured! And you would know this because you have so much experience, right? I've put a lot of work into him, and he's improved massively. I can do things with him now I never thought I could. I don't think I could ever feel 110% comfortable with him doing group stays because I can't trust other peoples dogs not to break and come over to him. At eight years of age, I don't think it's worth putting in the extensive training I would need to purely to get him in the competition ring, when we can both be happy and fulfilled by training purely for fun.

But I digress. I wouldn't want to get in the way of giving you a chance to prove how arrogant, condescending and nasty you are once again, would I?

For me, drive be damned. I'm looking for a happy dog that really wants to train.

Are you saying I don't have that with my dogs?

The point, Corvus, was that you were saying it's not ever necessary to "deprive" a dog of anything in order to get what you want with a dog. You used Kivi as an example and I am simply saying, that's not what I would want in a dog, and it's not what I wanted in my dog who also lacked motivation. When you train Kivi to the standard I look for in my dog, THEN you can tell me the way I did it was unnecessary to achieve what we have.

I think if that's all I want from him, it is the world, and he's given it to me. There's nothing more to ask for and I feel honoured.

And that's great for you, if that's what you want. I'm not saying it's a bad thing by any standards. The owner is happy, the dog is happy, what else do you need?

But not everyone is happy with the same standards as you, which means they might need to employ methods that you deem unnecessary and "meh" about and tell everyone are pointless and that they are never needed, to achieve a standard you don't have any desire to work to.

Edited June 24, 2010 by huski

[Cosmolo]

I think its individual choice in terms of what you want from your dogs. I have 2 dogs here that are quite driven- for food and toys and they are super to train. Unfortunate that Dexter isn't physically sound as he would have been the BEST obedience and agility dog!

2 of my others are good to train and motivated enough but we don't do alot of training with one as she is old and doesn't enjoy it anymore. The other likes training in small doses and is always better after a break so we train irregularly with her.

Our 5th dog is interesting- she would need to be deprived of a number of things if i wanted to trial her in obedience. Given that i don't, we deprive her of nothing and it means her heeling and formal recalls for instance aren't as 'specky' as the first 2 dogs. However, behaviours that she finds enjoyable we do regularly as she needs the combo of rewarding activity (agility, tricks, shaping) and external reward to be truly happy and motivated in her work.

[Mas1981]

I had 2 ridgebacks x's while living at home with my parents, I tried to do the right thing etc by taking them to trainings ( this was 10+ yrs ago) the one was sooo not interested in anything and she never even graduated from pet classes, the other one was much more into it and learnt loads of tricks etc over the years but would stress out if she was separated from her sister so I never continued with higher classes etc. I felt like I let her down as she was smart and could have maybe competed but U hated stressing her out by separating them.

Then last year my hubby and I got a lab pup, and he is so so different to train, he wants to please us and he always tries to do the right thing, he is very high energy in the mornings and this is when I train him. I have a fluffy tug lead that he LOVES and he only gets it when we are training, he also only gets treats if he does a trick or we are training. He has access to other toys though 24 7 but it doesnt matter as he WILL work for his special tug.

[corvus]

I know loads of people that do really well in competition with dogs of all sorts of drives without depriving them of anything. So no, I do not believe it is necessary. Not based on my experience with Kivi, but based on the experiences of many people. I do think it is necessary with my hare, so it's not like I don't understand what deprivation does.

If Bub doesn't want to deprive her dog I'm saying she doesn't have to in order to still have a dog that loves to train. That's where Kivi is a lovely example. He loves to train and I didn't deprive him of anything. This ain't a thread about creating a competition dog out of a mellow teddy bear.

[huski]

I know loads of people that do really well in competition with dogs of all sorts of drives without depriving them of anything. So no, I do not believe it is necessary. Not based on my experience with Kivi, but based on the experiences of many people. I do think it is necessary with my hare, so it's not like I don't understand what deprivation does.

Really? I don't know anyone who does really well in competition who let their dogs have access to whatever rewards they want whenever they want.

Whether or not it's necessary depends on the handler and the dog and what they want to achieve. I couldn't do what I do with my dog without a little bit of deprivation.

If Bub doesn't want to deprive her dog I'm saying she doesn't have to in order to still have a dog that loves to train.

I never said it was the only way to train. Once again, what is necessary depends on what the owner wants to achieve.

Edited June 24, 2010 by huski

[dee lee]

Bub, are you happy having Bubby as he is- your mellow boy?

Sounds to me like you are.

So many dogs out there arent trained at ALL, but you have worked with Bubby and made him into the lovely boy he is.

So if you and he are both OK with that then I dont see why you should change things.

You have Bitty to train, which you both enjoy, and Bubby to cuddle afterwards, also which you both enjoy. Win win, I'd say.

[skip]

I agree with SecretKei's post.

My dogs are beginners in agility, just in early levels in ADAA and ANKC. And these are my first dogs. Both dogs are happy and healthy but not the most energetic. I use food rewards, at home they often have to train for their dinner. I attempt tug with one but it is still not ready for the road.

To explain lets say when I go to the beach for a walk - the boy trots around piddling a lot and sniffing bums. The chi x follows in my shadow and she is fairly shy of strange dogs. I do train them at the beach and try to encourage zoomies. But compared to some dogs I see flying around they are very mellow.

Sometimes I am discouraged. But on the other hand I am still learning. They are not too fast so I can keep up and they forgive me my mistakes. They are very focused on me so watch my handling and respond well.

I learn something at each trial and when these 2 go as far as they want to I will probably get another dog. By then I will be a better handler. ( I hope)

But I did think the chi x due to her shyness had given agility the flick. Particularly when at a trial she would stop after 2 jumps and do the whole waving a front leg in the air looking pathetic thing. She likes to train at our club where she felt safer. So we kept on at the club and I would have felt guilty if I left her out of training. Recently I put her in a few jump runs at comp and she has done well. So we'll try a agility course too next time.

So I set goals for the dog I have. Once all I wanted was a dog that would weave 12 poles with no help so I'll have to get another training aim.

[Bubitty]

Love him to bits Dee! Wouldnt change him for the world!!!

Hehehe no I haven't changed anything! He just got free asian beef stew while Bitty fetched for hers!

I am just curious about my dogs thats all! Slow days at work make me ponder them and their behaviours and I like to know what everyone else does with their dogs! I am not fretting or anything!!!!!

ETA: Bubby loves good meals, long walks, lots of admiration from myself/his daddy and going feral with Bitty. I honestly think with him, training would be more for me than him so its not a big deal for us.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Bub

[dee lee]

I am just curious about my dogs thats all! Slow days at work make me ponder them and their behaviours and I like to know what everyone else does with their dogs! I am not fretting or anything!!!!!

I know what you mean, I spend all day at work doing the same!

Honestly, by your posts, your dogs must be amongst the happiest dogs around!!

[lovemesideways]

What do want out of your dog?

Is that what you have?

Then be happy !!!

[sas]

Love him to bits Dee! Wouldnt change him for the world!!!

Hehehe no I haven't changed anything! He just got free asian beef stew while Bitty fetched for hers!

I am just curious about my dogs thats all! Slow days at work make me ponder them and their behaviours and I like to know what everyone else does with their dogs! I am not fretting or anything!!!!!

ETA: Bubby loves good meals, long walks, lots of admiration from myself/his daddy and going feral with Bitty. I honestly think with him, training would be more for me than him so its not a big deal for us.

I think you pretty much already answered your own question? You give Bub everything for free, you don't make him work for any of it, i.e. you don't use NILIF principals at all.

I would personaly be looking at the thing he loves the most and restricting it and then trying to use that as motivation and seeing how you go. I think maybe you look at 'restricting' as cruel or something like that?

In reality there aren't many dogs who work for free, actually I'm not sure there are any?

If you're not prepared to find his motivator and use that then there's probably no point training with him? However ifyou were quite interested in training concepts etc. you would use this challenge to upskill yourself?

[Agility Dogs]

If you're not prepared to find his motivator and use that then there's probably no point training with him? However ifyou were quite interested in training concepts etc. you would use this challenge to upskill yourself?

I kind of agree with the sentiment of this. If you are happy with Bub the way he is now then I think the arrangement is perfect for both of you.

If you want to train Bub to do other things then his nature will stretch you as a trainer and you will discover other techniques that expand your abilities. This is only important if you are interested in it though, if you aren't then all you will do is create frustration for both of you - and I say that without any judgement.

For me, my soft marshmallow boy has opened my eyes to a whole new world of frustration, but more so joy when we get things right. I also find the things CK has taught me have transferred really well to my other dog and made our training even better and more satisfying that it already was.

I've taken a dog who would quite happily have spent his entire life lounging on the couch and turned him into a drivey flyball and frisbee monster who is starting to realise his potential in agility. He LOVES it, but started out totally indifferent.

For me it is about maximising their physical and mental potential in whatever field you feel suits them best.