Barking Problem

[Lucy's mama]

I am thinking of getting a static correction bark collar for Banjo. He doesn't bark all day at nothing, but he is very alert and barks at birds, neighbours dogs, (especially when they are wandering) other dogs barking (even ones I can barely hear), sometimes people on the street (he is fenced 80m away from the street) and usually this is worst in the early morning and around dusk. Some days he is great - I haven't had to call him in once thismorning for example - but other mornings it is pretty much every time I let him out. He doesn't bark much through the middle of the day though.

It doesn't bother me so much but it does bother my partner. Also we have had our first mention from our neighbours 150 odd meters away that the barking bothers them because allthough it is not very loud from over there, it makes their dogs bark and that does bother them.

The neighbours on the other side have three very quiet well trained dogs and Banjo barks over their side a lot. Thankfully they have not complained yet but I want to correct the behaviour before it becomes too ingrained or our neighbourhood relations too strained.

Up untill now I have called him when he barks, (I'm pretty sure I don't always hear him straight away though) bring him inside for at least 15 minutes or untill he's settled then let him back out. Often as soon as he is out he will go on alert and trot around the yard, ears forward, making little 'gruff' sounds and looking for something so bark at. He sleeps in a covered crate in the lounge room and still barks if he hears birds, other dogs, the cat walking past etc. He knows 'shh' and stops barking for a short time, then barks really really softly, then works back up to a full on bark.

Any other suggestions for me before I go with the collar?

[Lucy's mama]

Just wanted to add - there are a few reasons I'm not 100% keen on a bark control collar. The main one being I don't want to punish appropriate barking. It is his main form of communication and it seems wrong to stop it alltogether. If someone comes to my gate, he should be allowed to bark. If there is a snake in the yard, I want him to bark. If a fox is at the chook house, I want him to bark.

However, if it comes down to a choice between having cranky neighbours and a cranky partner or using the collar, then I would probably use the collar.

[Aidan]

Up untill now I have called him when he barks, (I'm pretty sure I don't always hear him straight away though) bring him inside for at least 15 minutes or untill he's settled then let him back out.

You're very likely reinforcing barking.

Teach him a "quiet" cue, then call him inside when he's been quiet for a moment. Build up the time using an 80% success rate; in other words, if he is quiet for 5 seconds 4/5 trials that you use it, increase the time to 10 seconds, when he is quiet 4/5 trials, increase the time to 15 seconds, etc Success means quiet for that long on the first cue, if you have to cue twice or he barks before the time you have set, then that trial is not a success. If you get less than 4/5 trials decrease the time for another 5 trials then try again.

Personally I would just bring him inside during the times where he is likely to bark, but if you have a reason not to the above plan should be appropriate. If you do decide to use a collar and you do not want to suppress barking at appropriate times, you could deliberately make him "collar-wise" so that he knows not to bark when he is wearing the collar, but there are other things to think about if you still want to do this.

[Lucy's mama]

'Thanks Aiden

QUOTE (Lucy's mama @ 23rd Jun 2010 - 08:21 AM)

Up untill now I have called him when he barks, (I'm pretty sure I don't always hear him straight away though) bring him inside for at least 15 minutes or untill he's settled then let him back out.

You're very likely reinforcing barking.

`

This was recommended by two trainers - theory being he would learn - bark, bark, must go inside now. Obviously it has not worked though! My partner thought it was rewarding barking but both trainers assured us it wasn't!

He knows a quiet cue. It doesn't work if he is out running about though - he really only listens to it inside. We have tried building the time between 'shh' and a treat but with very little success. Getting up and giving him a quiet cue every 5 or 10 minutes at 3am is no fun whatsoever and doesn't allow us a decent nights sleep. I am looking for a solution to stop inappropriat barking in the first place.

but there are other things to think about if you still want to do this.

Could you elaborate on this a little bit please so I can be better informed before I make a decision?

ETA: He barks when inside too - wether he is free inside or in his crate or on his bed makes no difference.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[corvus]

I dunno... I've been doing the bark-bark, okay, now come inside and lie quietly on your bed thing with Erik. I find it's been working well for what I wanted, which was to teach him to bark briefly rather than not bark at all or bark for ten minutes non-stop, for example. It's not a fool-proof approach. If he's bored he will certainly go and bark and then run inside and sit on his bed and then bark at me if I should happen to fail to notice he just cued me to reward him. Furthermore, if I'm not in my study he doesn't know what to do and just goes back to barking a lot more and getting himself wound up. I need to remember to produce somewhere for him to go to be quiet when I'm cooking.

There's more to it than just rewarding and then letting him do what he likes, though. He has to be calm to earn his treat as well. He has to be lying down, his tail has to be relaxed, and his eyes should be soft rather than bright and sparkly if that makes sense. And he absolutely must be silent and have been silent for at least the last ten seconds. He gets a high reward rate if he stays on his bed quietly rather than running back outside to bark. I use a lot of massage and a calm signal to lower his arousal and make it easier for him to choose to stay on his bed. He often falls asleep while he's waiting for a treat.

Ideally, I would be paying more attention and shaping the behaviour I want more precisely. But I'm working and just need him to be less distracting. Ted Turner uses a shaping approach to things like this, where he'll reward a less aroused response, and then even less and work it down to nothing.

[Lucy's mama]

Thanks corvus. I read your method in another thread and used it successfully to teach him to stay on his bed while I am cooking dinner rather than get underfoot, counter surf, stick his head in the fridge etc. It certainly worked for that.

His barking is something else though. When he is aroused like that it takes awhile to settle. Really the only way I have found to bring him down is practice focus exercises and long down stays with very low value treats. (Bits of carrot or apple are good) But like I said - 3am is not a great time to do that, and neither is the morning off to school and work rush, or the evening dinner-bath-bed time, which are, of course, his prime barking times!

[Aidan]

He knows a quiet cue. It doesn't work if he is out running about though - he really only listens to it inside. We have tried building the time between 'shh' and a treat but with very little success.

Did you use a clicker? You go to the window or door, cue "shush!" then click and toss the treat as soon as he orients to you. It's worth teaching even if you do use a collar.

but there are other things to think about if you still want to do this.

Could you elaborate on this a little bit please so I can be better informed before I make a decision?

ETA: He barks when inside too - wether he is free inside or in his crate or on his bed makes no difference.

Can you be more specific about what you want? What would you like him to bark at? When would you like him not to bark? What sorts of times, situations, days of the week are we talking about?

[Lucy's mama]

Sure. Barking at anyone coming on the property is fine, is excellent in fact. Barking once at the door to be let in or out is great - he often sits quietly waiting and only barks once for that anyway. Barking repeatedly at birds and their noises, people passing on the street, his reflection in a window or door, planes flying over, the cats, and the neighbours dogs is not.

All the nuisance, hyper-vigilant barking generally happens between 3am and 8am and 4.30/5.00pm and 9.00pm. I have just put this down to his natural gaurding instinct. I am guessing those are the times of day his flock would be most at risk? I know that seems to be the times foxes take our chickens.

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[corvus]

How old is he? Erik was beyond anything I'd ever seen before when he was around 6 months old. He would get wound up at the drop of a hat and stay up for hours. You could see it in his eyes. He'd be darting glances every which way and if he heard a noise he'd be up and off barking. He couldn't be still for more than 5 seconds. It was madness. I can't believe we lived through that. We had to teach him how to lie down and be calm. The massage REALLY helped. I swear by it. And Kongs. And figuring out what was the trigger and changing his routine so he did something else when he was triggered. He still gets this way every Monday when the Home Ice Cream truck comes around. He hates the bell it rings. He'll bark as long as he can hear it unless I can get him to do something else. I get him to practice lying down on his mat with the Manners Minder. I love that thing. Shut the door so he can't hear it as clearly, and reward like hell when it makes a noise and he doesn't get up. He is improving each week. Sometimes he just needs a little help to calm down.

[bedazzledx2]

I had a very vocal Kelpie and the slightest thing would set her off. I got complaints from one neighbour so had to do something about it. A bark collar would have destroyed her and this was in the days before I knew about much clicker training. I played the "you've won a prize" game which I found on the internet and it proved to be very effective. Not exactly positive training but not too aversive either.

You need to ensure it is attention barking (for want of a better word) but you can usually tell by the tone, intensity etc. This will also make you more observant and less re-active which is a good thing. When he barks inappropriately you very gently and quietly take him by the collar and say nicely "Darling you've won a prize" and take him to a time out place. Be very calm. No admonishment!!!! Leave him for 15 seconds and if he's quiet open the door with no further comment. You have to be very diciplined to not allow any emotion into the scenario. Rinse and repeat but leave him a bit longer next time. It is not a place of punishment but try and find somewhere quite and not stimulating. (I used the closed off passage)

I haven't had a nuisance barker since but this method really worked for us.

Sure. Barking at anyone coming on the property is fine, is excellent in fact. Barking once at the door to be let in or out is great - he often sits quietly waiting and only barks once for that anyway. Barking repeatedly at birds and their noises, people passing on the street, his reflection in a window or door, planes flying over, the cats, and the neighbours dogs is not.

All the nuisance, hyper-vigilant barking generally happens between 3am and 8am and 4.30/5.00pm and 9.00pm. I have just put this down to his natural gaurding instinct. I am guessing those are the times of day his flock would be most at risk? I know that seems to be the times foxes take our chickens.

[Aidan]

All the nuisance, hyper-vigilant barking generally happens between 3am and 8am and 4.30/5.00pm and 9.00pm. I have just put this down to his natural gaurding instinct. I am guessing those are the times of day his flock would be most at risk? I know that seems to be the times foxes take our chickens.

Hmmm, is it his job to guard the chooks and is it possible that he is being overstimulated by regular fox raids?

A collar could be used as a discriminative stimulus that says "no barking now", to do this you skip the bit where you condition the dog to ignore the collar. Turn it on every time he wears it (at first), which would be at the times you have specified. Be aware that he will not be able to bark at anything during these periods (without an aversive consequence), including foxes, visitors and crazed lunatics. For the sake of efficacy just put it on him for short periods at first where you are not expecting visitors (or crazed lunatics).

A completely different approach would be to teach him to alert to foxes, visitors etc but not other things in the environment. This starts to get a bit more specialised and it may be worth getting some professional help.

[Nekhbet]

The innotek bark collars have setting that go up as the dog continues. So after the first couple of barks the dog gets a warning, if it keeps going the stims go up. I have used them before and they really did do the trick. It didnt remove all barking just random nusience barking. Remember to leave bones, toys etc out so the dog can redirect any excitement into something quiet

[allbreeds]

I have used the bark collars before and they are awesome, I only need to use it once in a while. The last time i used it wasn't charged but my staff knows not to bark once its on her.

Just remember that not all states let you use them.

I suggest you try it out but make sure you don't leave it on the dog for more than 10h as it can leave marks on the dog.

Maybe you just need to walk your dog more, this will help!

H

[Lucy's mama]

Thanks. Nekhebet. If he can have a quick bark before getting a warning that is good.

Allbreeds - We are in QLD so fine to use here. He has a quick fetch and training session most mornings, in the afternoons he has a 3km walk broken up with a very quick dip in the river, (very occasionally 5km, but he is only 9 months old) a play in the dog park and a longer training session in the pm. Meals comes as RMB, in a treat toy or as training treats from the kids. He has missed his exercise for afew days because it is cold and wet and my youngest has a chest infection so we are staying indoors, but he is not going silly with energy or anything yet. In fact he has been a fair bit quieter than usual with less people passing, less bird noise etc.

Aiden - foxes are not a problem at the moment - but at those times of day the roosters crow, truckies and tradies are leaving for work, the neighbour comes very early and very late to feed her horses, the plovers swoop and make their noises and people are walking their dogs, so there is LOTS for him to bark at and get excited by.

We would be screwed in proper suburbia!

A collar could be used as a discriminative stimulus that says "no barking now",

That sounds like a good idea.

In the mean time (money is short - can't buy one immediately) I have decided to keep a bark diary myself to see more clearly what upsets him and when and maybe I will find another way to work around it. Also so next time I'm told he barked for 3 hours straight I can say with certainty and accuracy , "actually he barked for 30 seconds 8 times in that three hour period.''

Edited June 23, 2010 by Lucy's mama

[Aidan]

I have decided to keep a bark diary myself to see more clearly what upsets him and when and maybe I will find another way to work around it.

Excellent idea, also note what happens after he barks (if anything).

[sheena]

You can get collars that are remote controlled. You hold the control...he barks..you press the button as you give your "quite" command & the collar vibrates, it is not an electric shock, just an annoying vibration which gets his attention. Also a hand held ultrasonic device is an excellent tool. You use it in the same way, except this time he gets an annoying ringing in his ears. Don't use it though if you are near any other dogs ie within about 20ft as they will not understand, what they have done wrong. Make sure you give you command at the same time you push the button. I used both these tools on my dog when she was young & I can take her anywhere & she is well behaved. When she barks now, I know it is important & I investigate. You can also use one of those hand held squirter bottles the same way, only problem is you have to be close to the dog, but you can always set her up for the situation. It works wonders & is cheap. The other two devises you can buy on Ebay.

Edited June 25, 2010 by sheena

[Alasse]

I've used a static bark collar, it worked brilliantly, but then she could not bark at all, i wanted her to be able to bark, but not to go on and on with it. So we changed to an e-collar type thing, she wears it most times now, she can bark, but if it continues (probmatic type) she gets a vibration warning 1st, then a small zap if she continues. Very very rarely does the vibration not stop the barking.

The best part is i can do this with the remote from anywhere in the house. Going out to tell her to shh, was not working. She'd only learnt to bark bark bark then run to the door with a "where are ya mum" look on her face.

[Guest bigdogg]

If you do decide to go down the E collar or Bark Collar path, then give me a yell..

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