Retrieve

[corvus]

For some reason I only recently tried playing with a ball with Erik. Previously Kivi always jumped him as soon as he went after it, so I taught him to catch a small toss on the full. Problem is, he REALLY likes catching and he's so freaking proud of himself he has to parade around with the ball for ages before he will eventually bring it back for another toss. I figured this would be simple enough to fix. I'd just get two balls and as soon as he caught the first one allow him a moment to bask in his own glory and then cue him to catch the next one. Yeah, wasn't that simple. He very much doesn't want to leave his parading activities, even if I'm tossing a ball to Kivi in the meantime. He's like "Good, toss Kivi the ball. That way I can enjoy a little more time alone with my ball that I caught like some kind of amazing athlete." I tried interrupting the parading before it started with another ball toss and he's decided he'd rather parade, thanks. When this dude parades, the satisfaction emanating from him is enough to make you sick! He struts like he's god's gift to dogdom. No one cares that you can catch, Erik! Lots of dogs can catch!

I know I could shape it with a clicker and food, but I kinda want to shape it with a toy instead. Because I'm still working on getting him to transition from play rewards to food rewards smoothly, and I'm too lazy to fade food rewards. Blah, tedious. I wanted to use the ball at the park where he's often too aroused to be particularly interested in food, but will happily work for a more active reward. Can I teach him to bring his ball back with toys, or should I just get off my butt and get the treats out of the fridge?

[shoemonster]

It doesnt have to be food, it just has to be something he wants more than the ball he has, I've recently been working on trading a tennis ball for a frisbee with my dog, it was the only thing out of a lot of things we tried that worked for him

The other thing you could do is if he prances with it walk off and the game ends if he doesnt bring it back to you

Also personally I wouldnt have a second dog there while you are teaching him

[Bubitty]

Does he like to tug?

Bitty retrieves beautifully for a nice arm flapping, mummy yodelling tug as a reward!

She runs right back with the item cuz there is some toy waiting to be tugged on the other end.

[corvus]

Erik looooves tug. I tried today tossing him a tug toy instead of a ball. He got all confused. He wasn't sure if he wanted to do a victory lap or bring it to me for a tug. He ended up going with tug. Yay! Might be onto something, there. If I can put in on cue with the tug maybe then I can generalise it to the ball.

He doesn't care if I turn my back on him. The urge to parade that ball seems to be very strong, and he doesn't need an audience to bask in his glory.

I should put the other dog away for his own safety. But I keep starting these games/training sessions spontaneously. It's very sloppy of me. I'm only teaching Erik to use Kivi as his punching bag instead of working through an itsy bit of frustration.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

can you tell i've been going through the susan garrett youtubes...

this one is how to get the retieve working better...

http://www.youtube.com/clickerdogs#p/u/22/QVlAoihITXs

if the dog doesn't bring the toy straight back - no tug game.

The throw is a reward,

the geddit is a reward

the return gets a reward of new throw or game of tug and new throw

- so differing value of rewards can be chosen to encourage better quality.

All I can do if dog doesn't bring toy back is end the game (I leave), or remove toy from dog and use it to wind dog up to try again. Dog will usually trade food for toy but failing that is surprise and a badly aimed water pistol. I can't leave her with some toys, she would reduce them to kibble sized pieces. Frisbee not much good in tiny pieces.

[shoemonster]

The turning your back isn't about him having an audience, it's about walking off and the game being over unless he brings the ball back

Edited June 22, 2010 by shoemonster

[corvus]

The turning your back isn't about him having an audience, it's about walking off and the game being over unless he brings the ball back

Yeah, but the game's not over, is it? He's got the ball and he's playing a single-player game. He doesn't need me to make it fun, that's what I'm getting at.

Thanks for the vid Mrs RB. That looks like what I'm after. I think I'll try to shape it with tug and use the ball as a jackpot for the moment. I have a feeling that ball is about as good as it gets for him at the moment.

[Lablover]

Corvus,

It may be worthwhile concentrating on recalls for a while.

[corvus]

He has an ace recall. But I don't want him to recall. I want him to retrieve. If I recall him he'll dump the toy and come running because he is expected to abandon everything and come running when I recall him. I am happy with this state of affairs and would like him to continue doing that.

[Lablover]

If I recall him he'll dump the toy and come running because he is expected to abandon everything and come running when I recall him.

Dump the toy? Do not reward, being the simple answer.

Its easy for me I suppose having natural retrievers. Mind I start-like everyone else...... short with low distractions. They learn how "to play the game".

Trying to find an easy available link.

[corvus]

Yeah, but I'm not going to cue a recall and then change the rules on him so he doesn't get rewarded. My recalls are sacred!

I liked Susan Garrett's approach and I think I'll go that way. I just wanted a clue on how to shape it with toy rewards when he's got the toy and doesn't want another ball toss as much as he wants to parade the ball. I'm not trying to be argumentative or difficult, just that it's not gonna work if I just walk away or "not reward" him because he's being rewarded as long as he's got the ball. It's not hard to get Erik to do something for any reward, usually, so I don't often have to think beyond "mark-reward with whatever's handy". But it looks like possibly tug is at least equal to parading a ball and I think I just need to take the ball out of the equation and teach retrieve with a tug instead. I can bring the ball in again once he's got the idea and see how he goes.

[Bubitty]

Why do you need to take out the ball Corvus?

Can you just throw whatever you like and reward him with a tug when he brings it back?

[corvus]

I could try it, but I think the ball's a bit too satisfying for the moment. It's a hard choice for him whether to come for a tug or keep away with his ball. I figure retrieve would be easier for him to learn if he didn't have that hard choice to make. He can catch a tug toy and I think it will be much easier for him to bring that one back to me and we can have a tug as a reward. Once I have him habitually bringing it back or have a cue for it then I think he'll be more easily convinced about the ball.

[Jigsaw]

You could also try using a long line. It cuts back his options to self reward with the ball and if you need you can give him some assistance in coming back to you. Some dogs only need a bit of work to understand that they need to bring the toy back, others lots of work (which is my girl!!) If he does return the ball to you don't try and wrestle it from his mouth if he is unwilling to give it up. Try touching his body gently and he should relax and let it go. I've found that ending the game and leaving or turning my back works as even though she may still have the toy it usually only stays in her mouth for a short time after I take my attention away. If there's no audience to taunt it's not quite as much fun. When I return to her even if she still has the toy she usually surrenders it now (mind you that has taken some training) and the game is ended, no reward, no praise. But we are still working on it.

[corvus]

Ha, I never even thought of a long line! I do have a couple lying around somewhere. I'd rather get his active cooperation, but we'll see how forthcoming he is with that. Usually he wants to butt into everything I might be doing with the other dog, so the other day when he was doing his victory lap I went and played catch with Kivi, thinking for sure he'd want to be in on that. Nope. He lay on the ground to snuggle and chew his ball. So much for knowing my dog. I think he won't need loads of shaping and motivation. He's a good, social player usually. And he's very clever. Just gotta find the right way to ask. I am sure it would be perfectly easy with food, but I like using play rewards to teach play rules. It just kinda makes sense.

Thanks everyone.

[Sonic]

I have a Lab that from a pup liked to run out, pick up the dummy and then carry it by the rope, swinging it all around and doing the big parade. I cured it by putting a long line on him. He wasn't getting into trouble but he learned that it was a requirement for him to go out and come straight back.

He's retired now so can play that game till his heart's content. And at 7 y.o. it is still his favourite game!

Edited June 25, 2010 by Sonic

[Staff'n'Toller]

Ha, I never even thought of a long line! I do have a couple lying around somewhere. I'd rather get his active cooperation, but we'll see how forthcoming he is with that. Usually he wants to butt into everything I might be doing with the other dog, so the other day when he was doing his victory lap I went and played catch with Kivi, thinking for sure he'd want to be in on that. Nope. He lay on the ground to snuggle and chew his ball. So much for knowing my dog. I think he won't need loads of shaping and motivation. He's a good, social player usually. And he's very clever. :D Just gotta find the right way to ask. I am sure it would be perfectly easy with food, but I like using play rewards to teach play rules. It just kinda makes sense.

Thanks everyone. :D

I think that the difference you might be finding is all that he is into self rewarding.

I was going to suggest a long line but I wasn't sure if you'd think that was too aversive. It will be the quickest way to stop him doing it by cutting out his options. I have done it for dogs in the past and it works very well.

A few reminders with a long line is not going to make the sky fall in on him.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Staff'n'Toller

[corvus]

It's not that I think long lines are too aversive, just prefer to give him a chance to figure out what he needs to do on his own. He usually gets there. I tried with a tug toy last night and he was bringing it back for a tug without a hint of a parade. I was clicking and rewarding with a tug, but I think I'll shape him to put it right in my hand and then put it on cue and then introduce the ball again once he's ready to generalise it.

Thanks folks. :D

[Staranais]

You may have already found your answer, but what I would do would depend completely on whether this was intended to be a formal competition retrieve, or a play exercise. It's not clear to me from your posts which you are after. To me these are two different things, completely different, & never the two shall meet.

If the former, I'd go back to the beginning & clicker train it again from the foundation, since something has obviously gotten lost in translation & he's incorrectly seeing possession of the toy as the reward (rather than as a neutral task he has to complete in order to earn the reward).

If it's the second, just a casual reward for fun, then on one level I'd say who cares as long as he's enjoying himself, the goal of play is to have fun, and if he thinks parading the toy is fun then who are we to argue? Except that if you intend to use the retrieve as a reward for training, then I guess the concern is that it sounds like you have a dog who has decided that merely possessing the toy is more fun than interacting with you using the toy, & that is something I really try to avoid - I like having my participation being integral to the play reward for a variety of reasons.

JMO.

[corvus]

I wanted to use the ball catch as a reward. It's not a chase after the ball and stop it thing, it's a come here and catch this ball I'm going to toss you thing. I don't really mind that he wants to parade it except that as long as he's parading it I can't do anything else with him. And sooner or later he'll drop the ball and then I'll have to go get it! Better in my mind that he bring it back when cued. Then he can parade if he likes and if I want to get on with things I can cue him to bring it back already. He tugs plenty and I think there's leeway for a "play jackpot" that doesn't involve direct physical interaction with me. I like how quick the ball toss is. Even a super short tug requires a few seconds of commitment. I can reward him with a ball toss almost instantly and move on right away.