Severe Pullers

[HollyE]

A flat collar and leash in the wrong hands can be used to abuse a dog just like any tool - there is no danger or cruelty in tools like e-collars, prongs etc when they are used in the right hands.

Oh it can by all means, but the only things i'll use is a flat collar, lead and harness! Can't wait to get my race harnesses ha ha!

I'm not a fan of head collars by a long shot, but that doesn't mean that every time someone uses a tool they are being cruel to the dog.

No you seem to be twisting my words around now, I never said using a head collar is cruel, i said what they can do can be cruel.

I hate seeing tools used as a bandaid for training, but in the right hands they aid the training process to provide long term results.

You and me both!

[Gayle.]

And while the dog is being trained.....in my experience, it generally doesn't happen overnight....it still needs to be walked and anything that makes the walk more pleasant and comfortable for the person holding the leash means the dog is more likely to be taken on that walk.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

a long long time ago in a place far far away, I trained a big cattle dog not to pull by reefing on his flat collar if he started pulling, hard enough to turn him round and probably cause him pain.

Did stop him pulling, but what I should have realised was I risked breaking his neck doing that. A lot of the neck and head collars include that risk - depending on how they get used, and how freaked out the dog gets about anything that happens on the walk.

My dog does a perfect off lead heel in the dog parks, even at the beach but she's bonkers on the footpaths. The gentle leader head harness worked but she clearly hated it. The front attach harness worked just as well but she doesn't hate it. Stop and or turn - did not work because she would pull even if we were stopped, and turning - she was just as keen to pull in whatever direction we were facing. She wasn't keen to get somewhere, she just wanted to go flat out in any direction because she was freaked out scared of walking on the footpaths. I've never figured out why though she doesn't like cars much.

So try a bunch of methods. If you get a front attach harness, try it in combination with the stop and turn method. While stop and turn didn't work when my dog was little, now she's a bit more mature, it is starting to have an effect. I actually do stop and recall rather than turn, since direction of travel doesn't matter to her and we could use more recall practice.

[wuffles]

You can try every collar or harness out there and I guarantee there probably won't be much of a change. It's not about the tool being used it's about training your dog not to pull.

My beagle pulls really badly and I am working with her little by little and she has improved a bit... She's just so excitable the moment we go outside.

The first time I put a no-pull harness on Ava, there was an instant change. She ran to the end of the lead and went "WHOA! What was that?". It was a very pleasant walk! ;)

I consider myself a relatively competent trainer, but loose leash walking in the presence of both of my dogs at once has me stumped. The harness allows them to actually get walked while we work on focus in the meantime.

[Erny]

i rather long term results then quick fixes!

What's wrong with 'fixes' that are quick?

Do you think they don't last long term?

Or are you saying that you prefer training that takes a long term to harvest results?

Edited June 22, 2010 by Erny

[Aidan3]

Aidan, I agree totally that moving forward is the +R component but changing direction or stopping is not.

You necessarily have an extinction component in any schedule of reinforcement or shaping procedure, all +R training will involve this. If the dog is working to avoid it, then it's a different situation, but that would usually involve a pop or check, maybe on a correction collar unless the dog is sensitive.

[HollyE]

What's wrong with 'fixes' that are quick?

Do you think they don't last long term?

Or are you saying that you prefer training that takes a long term to harvest results?

I prefer training that doesn't work straight away, because it's more then likely a quick fix imo.

I love to take my sweet time with the training so i know i'm not cutting corners etc.

[corvus]

If the dog is working to avoid it, then it's a different situation, but that would usually involve a pop or check, maybe on a correction collar unless the dog is sensitive.

Although there sometimes is a powerful frustration aspect to extinction that isn't very nice. But hey, sometimes a little frustration is good as well. I deliberately put a little pressure on Erik to get him thinking outside the square. I'm a lot more careful about frustrating Kivi, though.

Lindsay would argue that when the dog doesn't get what he expects his experience is aversive, which is perhaps what huski is getting at? At any rate HollyE merely said that this method was more positive, which doesn't imply that there are no aversives involved however they are defined.

Holly, I like to fix the root of the problem rather than fixing symptoms. It tends to take longer, but the effects are more far-reaching. I had an argument with OH this morning because Erik has decided he hateshateshates having his harness put on or taken off (doesn't care about actually wearing it) and OH wanted to fix it by not giving him anywhere to run to when the harness came out. But I wanted to change the way he feels about getting his harness on. My way would take a lot longer, but my dog would be happier. OH's way has merit in the short-term, though, and should be incorporated into how we end up treating the problem.

[Gayle.]

I prefer training that doesn't work straight away, because it's more then likely a quick fix imo.

I love to take my sweet time with the training so i know i'm not cutting corners etc.

But dogs still need to be walked every day, so while you're waiting for a slow result, how do you walk the dog comfortably without it pulling your arm off?

And walks are meant to be enjoyable....not an hour-long disciplinary session for your dog.

[huski]

I prefer training that doesn't work straight away, because it's more then likely a quick fix imo.

I love to take my sweet time with the training so i know i'm not cutting corners etc.

That sounds a bit backwards to me. I can teach my youngest dog things pretty quickly, because she's smart, and she generally picks things up in no time. Just because something is quick doesn't mean it's a quick fix

If I was training something and wasn't seeing results I would be worried it wasn't working. If you find a training method that works quickly and clearly communicates to the dog, what is the problem?

ETA: You are honestly the first person I've ever heard who prefers when training doesn't work straight away

Edited June 22, 2010 by huski

[HollyE]

Holly, I like to fix the root of the problem rather than fixing symptoms. It tends to take longer, but the effects are more far-reaching. I had an argument with OH this morning because Erik has decided he hateshateshates having his harness put on or taken off (doesn't care about actually wearing it) and OH wanted to fix it by not giving him anywhere to run to when the harness came out. But I wanted to change the way he feels about getting his harness on. My way would take a lot longer, but my dog would be happier. OH's way has merit in the short-term, though, and should be incorporated into how we end up treating the problem.

I agree with you, I like to fix the root of the problem, I never ever said i rather fix symptoms, i am sorry if my posts come across that way.

At lest you're taking the time to short out the root of the problem, rather then just putting on that harness JUST to go for a walk, Walks are supposed to be enjoyable for both dog and owner.

But dogs still need to be walked every day, so while you're waiting for a slow result, how do you walk the dog comfortably without it pulling your arm off?

And walks are meant to be enjoyable....not an hour-long disciplinary session for your dog.

It doesn't mean you don't need to stop walking your dog, Last weekend i was working with a rotti x.. he was a chronic puller (his owners asked for a hand) when he'd pull .. i'd stop and wait around 5-8 seconds and then walk again.. after a few times he understood and he was getting so much better, when i stopped i did ask him to sit down .. when i now walk him he's extremely better and his owners are very happy with the result, although the root of the problem isn't completely solved it's getting better and he's starting to understand, I go back to work with him once my own work has calmed down!

[HollyE]

ETA: You are honestly the first person I've ever heard who prefers when training doesn't work straight away

I'm weird, what can i say! LOL!

[huski]

ETA: You are honestly the first person I've ever heard who prefers when training doesn't work straight away

I'm weird, what can i say! LOL!

LOL. I am far too impatient. I like to find the quickest and simplest way - I don't want to confuse my dog, I want to communicate to them as clearly as possible.

The trouble that dog trainers would find is that a lot of people need to see quick results. Most people prefer to use methods that work quickly, otherwise they will give up, and in the worst case scenario, the dog will be PTS.

[corvus]

I never ever said i rather fix symptoms, i am sorry if my posts come across that way.

I was agreeing with you. And simultaneously trying to offer an acceptable reason to others for why you would want to spend more time fixing a problem than less time. Because some problems are symptoms of a deeper problem.

[HollyE]

LOL. I am far too impatient. I like to find the quickest and simplest way - I don't want to confuse my dog, I want to communicate to them as clearly as possible.

The trouble that dog trainers would find is that a lot of people need to see quick results. Most people prefer to use methods that work quickly, otherwise they will give up, and in the worst case scenario, the dog will be PTS.

I'm as patient as you'll get, give me any situation and i'll sit it out so patiently and calmly as one could, I think that's why i am so good with horses too? mm anyway!

True, but this is why as dog trainers you need to explain why quick fix's are not recommended, you've not fixed the root of the problem there for that quick fix you've just done on that dog wont work for long, this is why people need to understand taking that time and doing it correctly is totally worth it in the long run for you and the dog.

I was agreeing with you. wink.gif And simultaneously trying to offer an acceptable reason to others for why you would want to spend more time fixing a problem than less time. Because some problems are symptoms of a deeper problem. smile.gif

Sorry i must have gotten confused, knowing me to do that! ha ha!.

I appreciate you agreeing with me, it's nice to know there is more then just me out there who believes taking the time is a much better idea!

[huski]

True, but this is why as dog trainers you need to explain why quick fix's are not recommended, you've not fixed the root of the problem there for that quick fix you've just done on that dog wont work for long, this is why people need to understand taking that time and doing it correctly is totally worth it in the long run for you and the dog.

Sure, in an ideal world everyone would understand that putting a bandaid over something is not the best option in the long run but in the real world some owners don't have that ability/time/interest no matter how many times you explain it to them. If they need to see results ASAP or the dog will be PTS, what would you tell them?

I appreciate you agreeing with me, it's nice to know there is more then just me out there who believes taking the time is a much better idea!

But if you can do things quickly, and it works, what is the problem? Why does taking longer always means it's better?

If it takes me one week to train my dog to do a complex exercise, but it takes someone else six months to do the same thing, does that mean that the other persons training was better? Or that their dog will be better at the exercise?

[Aidan3]

Although there sometimes is a powerful frustration aspect to extinction that isn't very nice.

Positive training was not supposed to be about avoiding aversion. Some current takes on it are ridiculous. Karen Pryor, Bob and Marion Bailey, Gary Wilkes, Ian Dunbar - none of these people ever suggested that training would ever be devoid of aversion.

"Set the dog up for success" and "timing, criteria, rate of reinforcement" - two mantras which anyone claiming to be "positive" (or not) should heed and if followed lead to good, efficient training. Both apply to successfully teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash, especially the "severe" pullers. Dog pulls, you stop straight away. The moment the leash goes loose, you can start again, or click and treat, or whatever you do. Be a robot, another mantra - "training is a mechanical skill" (Bob Bailey). You don't start with high distractions. There is minimal frustration, it's efficient, and there is no avoidance.

My mantra for LLW - "every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash a fairy dies and it's all your fault". Use tools if you can't be that consistent all the time, but be aware of the limitations. Use tools if your dog can over-power you, particularly if this is likely to put someone in danger.

[Erny]

I never ever said i rather fix symptoms, i am sorry if my posts come across that way.

I was agreeing with you. And simultaneously trying to offer an acceptable reason to others for why you would want to spend more time fixing a problem than less time. Because some problems are symptoms of a deeper problem.

But sometimes they are helped along by whatever other method some would refer to as a "quick fix". "Quick fix" is a term often used not because it didn't do the job and do the job well, but because it did the job quickly and in a way/method that someone else didn't like. "Taking the long route" is not necessarily the best thing for the dog. But it can often make the handler feel better. "Quick fix" is often a term thrown at people to make them feel guilty, as though they've been lazy and not spent months and months when weeks to months (or less) may do the job with just as good, if not better, result.

IMO, if the message is made clear and the dog can learn quickly rather than slowly, without any more detriment to its psych or well-being than the latter, it's not such a bad thing.

Just generalising, seeing as how "quick fix" was used as a generalisation as well.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Erny

[HollyE]

I wont comment to each post because there is many and it's late here.

But this is what i am going to say.

Quick fixes i believe shouldn't be done, there is no foundation with a quick fix, if you don't have a foundation when you build a house what's going to happen??? It'll all eventually come tumbling down, not only do i follow this rule while dog training i also follow this rule while training horses.

[Erny]

I wont comment to each post because there is many and it's late here.

But this is what i am going to say.

Quick fixes i believe shouldn't be done, there is no foundation with a quick fix, if you don't have a foundation when you build a house what's going to happen??? It'll all eventually come tumbling down, not only do i follow this rule while dog training i also follow this rule while training horses.

And this is what I'm going to say .

"Quick fixes" aren't necessarily the shallow foundationless methods you seem to think they might be. From where do you have it that "quick fixes" are equivalent to not having a foundation before you build your house? In fact, perhaps it would be clearer if you're able to explain what you regard as a "quick fix". Maybe we are sharing different images, perceptions, of what a "quick fix" might be.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Erny