Severe Pullers

[poodlefan]

Sadly for many dogs, once fitted with a halti, they will wear it for life.

Why is that so sad? Provided the dog doesn't pull and is still enjoying their walks and doesn't compete in anything where a halti is not allowed, why do they need to be trained not to pull? Why can't they just be managed? I know people that have a Halti permanently attatched to the dog's leash. There is never a reason for those people not to use it. Their dogs don't lean into the head collar. They walk on a loose leash, bright-eyed and tail wagging. Good for them. Management works fine for a lot of people as a permanent fix.

Because IMO they aren't "kinder" than a flat collar, you shouldn't ever tie a dog up with one (people do) and the potential for your dog to sustain an injury wearing one is always there. They also pull off pretty damn easily.

They don't usually replace flat collars anyway. Dogs rarely wear their ID tags on a halti so wear both. Only a fool would turn a dog loose in a dog park wearing one so a flat collar is needed there too.

I fail to understand why you need to double up and have all that stuff on a dog's sensitive muzzle at all if it isn't needed to control it

Edited June 22, 2010 by poodlefan

[manlynau]

I have two rescue dogs, I got both as adults and they both are pullers to the extreme. I tried everything available on the market, sporn, headcollar etc etc and found they worked a little bit but not enough for me to be comfortable walking them together. After researching on this forum i started training them with the walk in circles method, I walk and when they get ahead of my leg I abruptly turn inwards and walk back the way I came. I'm sure the locals in my street think i'm crazy. hope that makes sense .. and even though i was extremely sceptical it actual does work! i tend to keep it very low level, not over the top praise and I can walk both of mine together without my arm being pulled off.

[HollyE]

Halti's, E-Collars etc imo throw them in the bin.

The rescue dog i got last year with so severe with pulling sometimes i could hardly handle it.

I done 4 weeks of training (i never want results straight away) and before i re homed her she was beautiful to walk.

There is no secret, positive training is the way to do it, walk and turn is a great way and i have had excellent results doing so but also just stopping when they pull helps, they'll soon get it through their head

[labsrule]

I have seen dogs haul their owners on haltis, no pull harnesses and just about any device you care to mention (never seen a dog on prong collar though).

It's not about the collar.. its about training. A decent trainer could really help with this.

I couldn't agree more as up until a couple of weeks ago, my 8.5mth old Lab pup was a chronic puller on our walks. I enrolled him in Obedience last month and started making changes to the way I handled both myself and my dog on our walks as well as changing his home training session and also the type of treats I was using and the changes in him have been miraculous to say the least. I actually started the following thread in the training forum a couple of days ago about the overnight transformation my boy has undergone during our daily walks There has also been positive flow on affects to some other undesirable behaviour he started displaying when he hit adolescents

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=198787

[huski]

Halti's, E-Collars etc imo throw them in the bin.

The rescue dog i got last year with so severe with pulling sometimes i could hardly handle it.

I done 4 weeks of training (i never want results straight away) and before i re homed her she was beautiful to walk.

There is no secret, positive training is the way to do it, walk and turn is a great way and i have had excellent results doing so but also just stopping when they pull helps, they'll soon get it through their head

It's great that you've managed to train your dog that way, but it's unfair to think that everyone is capable of doing the same without the assistance of a tool.

Walk and turn is not strictly positive reinforcement anyway.

[KumaAkita]

This is one of those hot button topics that are going to get different reactions from each and every owner/trainer/expert.

With respect to the OP, they came here asking for advice on what works, they may not be seeking an instant solution and are trying to gather information from a group who have a wealth of experience and are willing put in the yards to have a well trained dog. It's about educating that there is no magic bullet and that "tools" are not always the be all and end all.

Go with what will work for you and your dog.

The infin8 works for us.

So my advice to the OP is that you may have to try a few different things to find out what works. It will go hand in hand with sensible training to stop the pulling. Our vet have a few collars that they will let you try before you buy, check if yours does the same.

But most of all - you have to enjoy walking your dog. It's something you're going to have to do no matter what. Perserve and good luck!

[corvus]

Because IMO they aren't "kinder" than a flat collar, you shouldn't ever tie a dog up with one (people do) and the potential for your dog to sustain an injury wearing one is always there. They also pull off pretty damn easily.

I imagine that's an individual dog thing whether they are "kinder" or not. If the dog is happy and not pulling the potential for injury is not much worse than a flat collar, which also has just one point of contact at the sensitive trachea...

I fail to understand why you need to double up and have all that stuff on a dog's sensitive muzzle at all if it isn't needed to control it

It is to control the dog, but that doesn't mean the dog pulls when it's on. The leash and harnesses I use are to control my dog as well. Oddly enough, I rarely have to use them. The boys are pretty good with voice control. It's no different. What controls the dog is having the cue there that they can't pull i.e. the feeling of the equipment on them. Let's face it, a lot of of folks are going to struggle weaning them off the head collar. I don't think that's a big deal at all. Whatever means their dog will get regular walks.

[juice]

i have a prong, and walk several other dogs who wear them, although they can still learn to 'lean" on them.

[poodlefan]

Because IMO they aren't "kinder" than a flat collar, you shouldn't ever tie a dog up with one (people do) and the potential for your dog to sustain an injury wearing one is always there. They also pull off pretty damn easily.

I imagine that's an individual dog thing whether they are "kinder" or not. If the dog is happy and not pulling the potential for injury is not much worse than a flat collar, which also has just one point of contact at the sensitive trachea...

If the dog doesn't pull on a flat collar, where's the damage to the trachea. As opposed to the rather sensitive occipito-atlantal joints in the upper spine that a halti can irrepairably damage? Maybe I'm sensitised to the issue but few dogs I've observed walk on a halti without changing the angle of their head and neck to accomodate having a lead attached to the device. And many users do pull their dogs head up and sideways, even if they don't recognise it.

Why have straps over the such a sensitive part of a dog at all if control is not required? If I had to use a no-pull device, I'd choose a harness every time.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one Corvus - as we have done before.

[HollyE]

It's great that you've managed to train your dog that way, but it's unfair to think that everyone is capable of doing the same without the assistance of a tool.

Walk and turn is not strictly positive reinforcement anyway.

It depends how you do it, If you sharply turn the dog is going to feel the strength from you turning around quickly, If you just STOP! THEN after a few seconds.. turn.. it's not as nasty as it might sound. It is more positive then using tools, no offence to the people who use them.

Also the stopping and then going is positive, a lot more then tools.

[noisymina]

It's not cruel or amything to simply stop, or stop and turn facing the other way and start off in the new direstion. Actually pulling them as hard as they pulled you is not the aim of the game.

I used to love the way Kaisie used to behave if I simply stopped. We would stand there for a bit while she waited for me to continue. Then she would work out that we were not actually going anywhere.

She would then come back to check me out - ie stopped pulling, then we would proceed. Over and over and over.

Other times I would just, stop, turn around and call her and she would happily trot in the opposite direction until she got ahead enough to pull agin.

Repeat. repeat. Repeat.

Agh ....we are not going anywhare!

Gradually she realised we went much more slowly anywhere if we had to keep stopping and/or stopping and turning. Any walks we do are still slow porgress, but since we have heaps of room for her to run here, it's not a necessity.

Now she knows that if she pulls, I will stop. So we get a pull, not a hard one, I stop, she stops - becasue she know what is coming. She now doesn't know if we are going to just stop and proceed - or if we are going to turn and go back the other way. Keeps her guessing. ;)

At least she is not fighting me and pulling HARD anymore. Better than we had.

[huski]

It depends how you do it, If you sharply turn the dog is going to feel the strength from you turning around quickly, If you just STOP! THEN after a few seconds.. turn.. it's not as nasty as it might sound. It is more positive then using tools, no offence to the people who use them.

Also the stopping and then going is positive, a lot more then tools.

But tools, when used appropriately, are not cruel and are often used in conjunction with methods like the stop or change of direction - neither of which are cruel methods, but are hardly positive reinforcement.

I'd suggest that a properly used tool is a lot more positive than a dog being PTS because the owner can't handle it. It's naive at best and arrogant at worst to assume that everyone is capable of training any dog to walk on a loose leash without the use of tools.

Pssst... nice to see you over on DOL, Joey ;)

Edited June 22, 2010 by huski

[Aidan]

Also the stopping and then going is positive, a lot more then tools.

But tools, when used appropriately, are not cruel and are often used in conjunction with methods like the stop or change of direction - neither of which are cruel methods, but are hardly positive reinforcement.

The +R component is being allowed to move forwards, go sniff things etc. "Be a Tree" or "Penalty Yards" approaches remove that reinforcer, and give it back when the dog is on a loose leash.

[huski]

Also the stopping and then going is positive, a lot more then tools.

But tools, when used appropriately, are not cruel and are often used in conjunction with methods like the stop or change of direction - neither of which are cruel methods, but are hardly positive reinforcement.

The +R component is being allowed to move forwards, go sniff things etc. "Be a Tree" or "Penalty Yards" approaches remove that reinforcer, and give it back when the dog is on a loose leash.

Aidan, I agree totally that moving forward is the +R component but changing direction or stopping is not.

[HollyE]

But tools, when used appropriately, are not cruel and are often used in conjunction with methods like the stop or change of direction - neither of which are cruel methods, but are hardly positive reinforcement.

So you are saying the method I use is hardly positive, wow thanks and it's nice to know! But i am not complaining since the dogs i have fostered and my two sibes i have currently do walk next to me beautifully.

I'm not trying to come across as a 'big head' but imo i don't see a point using tools when you can use simple training methods.

I have handled dogs who are hard to handle, pull like there is no tomorrow etc.

It's not rocket science and i am pretty sure you don't need to spend money on all these tools to get a result.

Same deal with horses, want them working correctly don't use side reins, chambons etc!

[huski]

But tools, when used appropriately, are not cruel and are often used in conjunction with methods like the stop or change of direction - neither of which are cruel methods, but are hardly positive reinforcement.

So you are saying the method I use is hardly positive, wow thanks and it's nice to know! But i am not complaining since the dogs i have fostered and my two sibes i have currently do walk next to me beautifully.

No, that's not what I am saying at all. You said that you only use R+, but changing direction or stopping when the dog pulls is not R+ - you are stopping the dog from doing something they find rewarding. That is not, by definition, R+.

I'm not trying to come across as a 'big head' but imo i don't see a point using tools when you can use simple training methods.

I have handled dogs who are hard to handle, pull like there is no tomorrow etc.

It's not rocket science and i am pretty sure you don't need to spend money on all these tools to get a result.

Same deal with horses, want them working correctly don't use side reins, chambons etc!

Like I said earlier - it's great that you were able to do it without the assistance of anything other than a leash and collar (both of which are tools, btw). But it's not fair to assume that everyone is capable of doing so with every dog, and that tools are always unnecessary. Are you are dog trainer, Holly? Because it's not about what you can do with a dog, but what the person you are training is capable of doing. Most good trainers can train the majority of dogs to walk on a loose leash with a flat collar, but it's not about what they can do - it's about what the handler is capable of doing.

Edited June 22, 2010 by huski

[haylz27]

You can try every collar or harness out there and I guarantee there probably won't be much of a change. It's not about the tool being used it's about training your dog not to pull.

My beagle pulls really badly and I am working with her little by little and she has improved a bit... She's just so excitable the moment we go outside.

[HollyE]

I wouldn't call myself a dog trainer, I'm only 20 years old.

But I've had my fare share of dogs that I've trained and helped owners over come serious problems with.

Personally a flat collar and lead is harmless in the correct hands, although this might sound like i am contradicting myself since i am anti tools, i mean hatlis, E-collars, chocker chains etc not a simple lead and collar.

Regardless of what people think i believe the methods i use are positive, much rather these methods then putting a halti on a dog which applies pressure in the most uncomfortable places and can cause the dog to struggle to breath (since some put pressure on the bridge of the nose), That is cruel.

I respect that everyone is entitled to use whatever method they choose to use, i rather long term results then quick fixes!

[rubiton]

Choke chain in conjunction with harness (choke chain cant be pulled tight but the pressure stops the head getting down) and it works as does stopping if she starts to pull and absolutely no stopping and sniffing. They can sniff and walk along just fine there is no need to stop.

[huski]

Personally a flat collar and lead is harmless in the correct hands, although this might sound like i am contradicting myself since i am anti tools, i mean hatlis, E-collars, chocker chains etc not a simple lead and collar.

A flat collar and leash in the wrong hands can be used to abuse a dog just like any tool - there is no danger or cruelty in tools like e-collars, prongs etc when they are used in the right hands.

Regardless of what people think i believe the methods i use are positive, much rather these methods then putting a halti on a dog which applies pressure in the most uncomfortable places and can cause the dog to struggle to breath (since some put pressure on the bridge of the nose), That is cruel.

I'm not a fan of head collars by a long shot, but that doesn't mean that every time someone uses a tool they are being cruel to the dog.

I respect that everyone is entitled to use whatever method they choose to use, i rather long term results then quick fixes!

I hate seeing tools used as a bandaid for training, but in the right hands they aid the training process to provide long term results.