Neuter Shows

[SwaY]

I am at a loss as to why certain clubs WONT add the neuter classes. It cant have anything to do with size of entry...surely not.

That is like saying..."well, I wont add such and such a breed cos there is never any entries !"

Yes, it has to do with numbers and cost.

You may not have any of XXX breeds entered, but you would then have 20+ of CCC breed to make up for it.

Is anyone keeping a tally on how many where entered at what shows??

[foxyroxy]

Ovens Valley are running neuter classes again next year but if the entries have not improved by then I will quite likely go home and cry. And one entry fee does not cover the cost of the BNIG sash plus prize that has to be provided. We were very lucky to have all BNIG sashes donated by either Doler's ( thanks Spikes Puppy, Dyzney, Bilbo Baggins) or club members. I donated the BIS sashes. So club members were not only giving of their time but of their cash as well. A couple of the groups did have 2 entries so yes the cost of sash and prize was covered, some had only one, cost was not covered, some had none so again cost was not covered. Sashes have to be ordered weeks before a show, can't wait until we see what entries we get. Sashes not used this year can be used next year. But if they hadn't been sponsored the club would have had to bear that cost and lost money on running the class. You don't lose money on the other BIG's or CIG's.

I am only talking about BNIG sashes and prizes, not the BOB and Challenge ribbons.

Try approaching the local vet clinics to sponsor a NIG sash. :p

our costs were covered thanks itsmeg, but I will ask the vets next year as well, good idea.

I suggest to all those screaming for neuter classes you put your money where your mouth is and start approaching clubs close to you with the offer to sponsor a sash. Some clubs can afford to cover the costs, others can't, and at this point in time there is a cost to a club to run the classes. I know you shouldn't have to donate but at this stage the classes aren't covering the costs. As I said previously, OVCC will run them again next year, it is acknowledged that it will take time to build entries up but if they don't the pin will be pulled. So offer to donate to clubs, join a club or two, write a few letters and push the point. The actual paperwork etc isn't hard, it's the costs to the clubs.

I have already donated for the sash you mention at some shows later this year... my point is that I shouldnt have to...it is a recognized title. & the classes should be offered...I trial in Obedience as well and it would be ludicrous for clubs not to have added the new UDX tests when UDX was available as a title just cos they figured they would get very few entries.

[SwaY]

Your right, you shouldn't have to.

But if that's what it takes to get them happening and it was something I was interested in, then I would be donating.

At the moment it's optional, maybe if people support it, it will become compulsory?

[Sayreovi]

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

[armahani]

I actually suspect that the notion that it has to "pay for itself" in the early days is the key reason that not more shows are offering it. It's a catch 22 situation. Shows don't offer it before it won't pay for itself, therefore the critical mass doesn't get generated (new things always take time to take off and require the ability to participate for that growth), and therefore the numbers aren't there for it to pay for itself.

With something new, you kind of have to accept that it will run at a loss for a while and other things will be subsidising that loss. If it is important enough in the long term, then that just is accepted.

The question for a club considering offering the class at the moment probably shouldn't be "will it run at a loss?". Chances are it will for a while. Instead the questions should be: "Do we think this class is important for the future of our sport and its future growth?" "Do we as a club have a role in encouraging the growth of this class during this 'growth period'?" and pragmatically "Can we afford it?" or maybe "Can we find a way of affording it?". If clubs believe the answers to those questions are "no" then I guess there is a real question on the legitimacy of the class/title. But if there is critical thinking that it is important .... then surely a short term loss is an acceptable thing?

If 95% of clubs sit back and say "we'll offer it when the numbers are there" then the numbers will never be there. I think the Ovens Valley example is one of being a trailblazer in Victoria. It is almost inevitable that numbers are going to be very low for those trailblazers prepared to take the step. But hopefully they are doing it for more important reasons, and believe in its future, so were expecting and are prepared for that anyway.

Of course, sometimes looking at a simple calculation based on numbers in the class isn't a legitimate measure anyway. I'm heading into NSW for three days of shows later this month. I was thinking about doing them, but hadn't really made up my mind whether I wanted the trip this time around. In the end the factor that tipped me was noticing the neuter class on offer. So I decided to enter. Maybe I would have anyway. But equally I possibly wouldn't have. So, yes, I only have one neuter entered to contribute toward the cost of those NIG ribbons. But ..... I have three other dogs entered, the entry fees the club probably wouldn't have received otherwise. They got those entries because they gave me a value proposition I found attractive .... but they would probably never know that if they just looked at my one little neuter entry :p

[GRD]

I can't quite understand you costings here, these would be your normal costs for a show. If you mean the additional costs for the Neuter Class then it would be 7x Class in Group Sash and 1x Class in Show sash. At the cost of the ribbons we provide that would be 7 x $3.80 and 1x $5.20 Total of $ 31.80 per show.

You can accuse me of being biased here, but if a club that only gets around 100 entries for an All Breeds show and pays out on average $1000 for the judges airfare and accommodation can afford to offer this class then I can not see how clubs with much larger entries can blame the costs, for the reason not to offer a neuter class.

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

It is a cost that not all clubs can afford to wear if it is not supported.

Sashes for BIG X 7 = $70

BIS sash x 1 =$10

RUBIS x 1 = $10

= $90 per day

Ovens Valley had 9 on Sat and 8 on Sunday. Lucky they had some donations, if they didn't they would have run at a loss.

[SwaY]

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

[Paptacular!]

I can't quite understand you costings here, these would be your normal costs for a show. If you mean the additional costs for the Neuter Class then it would be 7x Class in Group Sash and 1x Class in Show sash. At the cost of the ribbons we provide that would be 7 x $3.80 and 1x $5.20 Total of $ 31.80 per show.

You can accuse me of being biased here, but if a club that only gets around 100 entries for an All Breeds show and pays out on average $1000 for the judges airfare and accommodation can afford to offer this class then I can not see how clubs with much larger entries can blame the costs, for the reason not to offer a neuter class.

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

It is a cost that not all clubs can afford to wear if it is not supported.

Sashes for BIG X 7 = $70

BIS sash x 1 =$10

RUBIS x 1 = $10

= $90 per day

Ovens Valley had 9 on Sat and 8 on Sunday. Lucky they had some donations, if they didn't they would have run at a loss.

:p

[SwaY]

I can't quite understand you costings here, these would be your normal costs for a show. If you mean the additional costs for the Neuter Class then it would be 7x Class in Group Sash and 1x Class in Show sash. At the cost of the ribbons we provide that would be 7 x $3.80 and 1x $5.20 Total of $ 31.80 per show.

Your ribbons are cheap, And at that price yes I would agree they should be offered.

Don't forget you also have to add certificates and ANKC levy fees, I'm not sure on the cost of those.

[GRD]

There is no ANKC levies, each state has their own. Ours are $2.30 for the first entry in name, this is included in the entry fee (if you have 2 or more dogs entered in your name in a show you only pay the one fee).

The prices of certificates vary between states as well, we pay 60 cents each for ours. These are normally ordered after close of entries so that you have an idea of how many you need.

We are got our last set of ribbons from showribbonsonline.com, a 36"x6" tri coloured BIS ribbon is only $7.50. They even gave a vochure for genetic testing for BIS and R/Up in Show plus other discounts for everyone entering.

name='SwaY' date='5th Apr 2011 - 04:47 PM' post='5239520']

Your ribbons are cheap, And at that price yes I would agree they should be offered.

Don't forget you also have to add certificates and ANKC levy fees, I'm not sure on the cost of those.

[SwaY]

Where did you get the $3.80 ribbons from you mentioned?

I find in very interesting how the prices vary from entry fees to challenge certificates etc.

[Sayreovi]

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

Then I guess it's up to the judge whether or not to award the dog isn't it? More than likely though unless the dog has a DQ fault they will award it and I would guess they would be lenient towards the neuters as majority are pets.

The owners may then decide to want to compete in the entire classes (well if treated nice enough) and get a show quality puppy. Nice to know that fellow exhibitors still feel the need to bitch about the neuters as well :p

Neuter classes are like a stepping stone for pet owners and should be encourage to exhibited their "pet".

Edited April 5, 2011 by tollersowned

[Rebanne]

The question for a club considering offering the class at the moment probably shouldn't be "will it run at a loss?". Chances are it will for a while. Instead the questions should be: "Do we think this class is important for the future of our sport and its future growth?" "Do we as a club have a role in encouraging the growth of this class during this 'growth period'?" and pragmatically "Can we afford it?" or maybe "Can we find a way of affording it?". If clubs believe the answers to those questions are "no" then I guess there is a real question on the legitimacy of the class/title. But if there is critical thinking that it is important .... then surely a short term loss is an acceptable thing?

OVCC decided it was important to offer and we found a way to cover the costs.

As for the costs of the sashes, we had good sashes and they were close to $10 a sash, then there was the prize as well.

[Rebanne]

The prices of certificates vary between states as well, we pay 60 cents each for ours. These are normally ordered after close of entries so that you have an idea of how many you need.

We are got our last set of ribbons from showribbonsonline.com, a 36"x6" tri coloured BIS ribbon is only $7.50. They even gave a vochure for genetic testing for BIS and R/Up in Show plus other discounts for everyone entering.

it is advised by VIC Dog to order your cards 3 months before your show, which I did. I will compare the sashes from your supplier and mine :p Always happy to find something cheaper as long as the quality it good.

[Rebanne]

The only time I hear talk about neuter is on DOL in this thread or, when people drag out dogs that are clearly pets to get a title on them, and then you have those at shows talk about them.

Does it really matter if they are "clearly" pets? If it brings more people into the show ring who cares? It should be encouraged after all isn't show numbers dropping and there are clearly pets being shown entire as well.....

Yes it does be it Neuter or an All Breeds Show - The judge has to sign a certificate that says

"I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title of 'Champion'"

Then I guess it's up to the judge whether or not to award the dog isn't it? More than likely though unless the dog has a DQ fault they will award it and I would guess they would be lenient towards the neuters as majority are pets.

The owners may then decide to want to compete in the entire classes (well if treated nice enough) and get a show quality puppy. Nice to know that fellow exhibitors still feel the need to bitch about the neuters as well :p

Neuter classes are like a stepping stone for pet owners and should be encourage to exhibited their "pet".

I have to say I disagree with this. I still think a neutered dog being exhibited should be good enough to be exhibited if entire. I think neuter classes are for people wanting to show but not wanting to keep an entire animal. And yes there are entire dogs being shown that shouldn't be. I also think all show dogs should be pets, mine are

[Sayreovi]

I have to say I disagree with this. I still think a neutered dog being exhibited should be good enough to be exhibited if entire. I think neuter classes are for people wanting to show but not wanting to keep an entire animal. And yes there are entire dogs being shown that shouldn't be. I also think all show dogs should be pets, mine are :p

Hence why I wrote "pet"

Gonna have to agree to disagree, I see neuter classes a good way to bring more people into a rapidly declining sport. Obviously the dog will be of OK quality and the owner is not going to be laughed out of the ring because the breeder has to change the registration from Limited to Main (Neuter).

[Yarrowfell]

When you talk about cost you have to take into consideration other entries as well. I drove past a show at the ACT ground last Sunday and drove to Bulli , just because they had neuter. I took not only the neuter but 6 other entries as well. Now I have never been to Bulli show before but entered ONLY for the reason they had Neuter.

This weekend there is a show an hour from my house that I am driving past to enter a show further away again BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEUTER. This time I have entered the neuter + 7 other dogs.

I have also entered other shows in the next month JUST BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEUTER.

[puglvr]

We had the Neuter class at our Pug Specialty this year. We have always had it but this is the first time the N CH classes were offerd. We had 5 entries. So the winner gained 10 points. We also presented Challenge aned Reserve Challenge Rosettes and Best and Reserve Neuter Sashes. Cost outweighed the entries but well worth it.

[Rebanne]

I was just trying to give a clubs perspective. I was very very surprised to find out the OVCC was the very first all breeds club in Vic offering the class. It's 9 months since it's been available and a very small club is the first. I'm all for neuter classes as long as the standard of dog entering is up to scratch. I might have started showing years ago if neuter had been available way back then. But if neuter classes are to stay then both shows offering the class, and entries supporting it must grow, or it's doomed.

[puglvr]

Just a thought for someone involved in Dogs Vic to maybe take back to them. To get the neuter classes up and running they really need to get behind it, promote it to the clubs and maybe offer to waive the fees/costs/levies for this class untill they are up and running.