Feeling Disheartened About Puppy School Experience

[koalathebear]

I described Elbie's puppy school in another thread so sorry for the duplication Like you, I had initially thought that puppy class was for a bunch of cute puppies to play with one another. It turns out that it's a place for them to be around a bunch of other dogs and people but not necessarily have to play with them. At Elbie's puppy class, he attended with:

Big Dogs

- a gorgeous but grumpy bull terrier named Winston who is built like a block of wood

- a huge, boisterous six month old boxer puppy named Lloyd

- a HUGE rhodesian ridgeback/rottweiler cross named Geoffrey who was beautiful but also very boisterous

Little Dogs

- a terrified little cavalier king charles named Alfie who spent all of the playtime hiding between the legs of my OH biggrin.gif

- Ruby, a schnauzer with anxiety issues and a very blingy collar

Elbie was classified as one of the little dogs. I think he enjoyed puppy class a lot although he didn't really play that much with the other puppies. Generally all dogs stayed on lead at first, then the little dogs were released and they played, then they were put back on lead and the big dogs were released. Towards the end of each session, all dogs were off lead but the two vet's nurses that ran the classes would intervene and scoop up any dog that was being too boisterous. For instance, Geoffrey had a tendency to bite down and clamp when he got excited, Winston liked humping the heads of other dogs etc. The vet's nurses would walk around with a naughty pup under an arm until they settled and then they'd be put down on the ground again.

Elbie generally liked to run around and eat treats. He got chased and pinned a few times by the larger dogs and seemed a little scared - one on one Elbie was just too fast and the larger dogs couldn't catch him but when they ganged up on him, they could pin him and a few times they stepped on his head. After that, whenever they chased Elbie he did a really strange thing where he dropped to the ground and flattened himself out - almost like he was playing possum. All the owners started laughing their heads off because Elbie looked so funny.

The vet's nurse said that Elbie was probably doing it because he had learned that when he went still, the other two dogs lost interest and left him alone. He just looked really pitiful when he did it, though! He's not a very aggressive dog ... at one point when he clearly was quite pissed off and started to bark back at Winston, the vet's nurse said: "Good on you Elbie - learn how to play!" Our poor puppy ... not tough enough Interestingly, he didn't seem scarred and didn't avoid the larger dogs and kept running around but he did keep that very strange response when being chased by multiple dogs.

In terms of the two frightened dogs, for, the first four classes, Alfie the terrified Cav hid in the doorway or between my OH's legs. The vet's nurse said that was fine because other dogs would sniff him and now and then he'd come out for a look and a peek and scamper back. He said that it was part of the socialisation process and socialisation didn't mean that they had to play with one another - they just had to learn to be in the presence of other puppies/dogs/people. For one week, with the owner's consent they sprayed a scarf with DAP spray and put that on Ruby and the next week they tried it on Alfie. It certainly emboldened the doggies because they seemed less anxious and did come out of their shells more.

What I didn't like about our puppy classes was that Elbie is still not a calm dog - he is a ball of squirming, wriggling, excitable energy and during the classroom components we found it very hard to keep him still. We got claws in the face, teeth on the chin or cheek from our flailing, excited puppy and while the bigger dogs were totally zonked after playtime - Elbie was still in turbo mode. We think that the socialisation aspect was very worthwhile, though.

Edited June 20, 2010 by koalathebear

[W Sibs]

I think just talk to your instructor on how you feel.

There was 6 puppies in Emmy's puppy class. The instructors lets puppies off the leash by their energy and their play behaviour. So, if you had a shy puppy, they won't let it play with a hyper puppy.

Emmy was put in the hyper big puppies despite being very little. She could handle herself... there was no chance they were going to let her off the leash with the quiet and shy small puppies (although she does play with them gently... but her play growls scared one of them). Emmy was the bully in the class. Very bossy.

Edited June 21, 2010 by CW EW

[aussielover]

Hi!

Puppy classes are good if you're a first time dog handler. Also if you want to socialise your dog, go to an off leash park.

Ummm, I wouldn't say an off leash park is better than puppy class to socialise your dog, as you have even less control over the situation there.

Also, some older, aggressive dogs may be visiting the park and REALLY scare your pup. If your dog is already a bit nervous/wary then I wouldn't recommend an off leash park. Do you know anyone with a well socialised older dog? Or even a puppy of similar age and temperament to oscar?

I would offer my puppy, but she is pretty boisterous, sorry I've forgotten what type of dog oscar is, but Mindy is a lab puppy and pretty big, goofy and playful, so might frighten yours!

With regard to your puppy class, the instructor should take charge and take control of the aggressive and chasing puppies.

[Magstar]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I appreciate it.

Aussielover, Oscar is a GR, so he is pretty big and goofy himself.

I think we might give it one more week and see how it goes. Hopefully now that the instructor knows what all the pups are like she will plan the class accordingly. I might just have to make sure that Oscar stays away from the pups that might scare him.

I will send the instructor an email and let her know my concerns. If I'm not happy with the response then I guess that might make up my mind for me!

I really wish more of my friends/family had dogs that I could introduce Oscar to!

[SpikesPuppy]

I would be walking away from any class that has off-leash play as the main portion, likewise any class that does not pair suitable puppies together.

I took my pup to one dodgy 'free for all' type situation and that was the last time... from now on, if I choose to attend a puppy school, it is one where the puppies remain on leash for the majority of the session and if they must be released, it is only in suitable pairs/groups.

With my current puppy (5 months old), she has never done puppy school but is a show dog and very well socialised, however even on-lead I am careful about the dogs she interacts with- ie: I want her to like and understand Staffords but she is only allowed to interact with certain ones while still a baby, not because they are nasty but because they are big and bouncy!

We have had a few 'pupoy playgroups' at shows which has been fun and everyone got along, but it was also good in that all the owners were dog-savvy people.

You said the Pug was friendly, could you arrange a playdate with that puppy alone? IMO although socialisation is extremely important, what's more important is that your puppy trusts that you will keep him safe from any harm and he be confident and sure in any situation because he knows that you, his leader, will take care of him

[Loving my Oldies]

The problem is that I don't really know any other dogs to socialise Oscar with that I trust to be a good influence on him. My friend's dogs are all a bit wild,and my only family member that has a dog is an ex puppy farm dog and has issues, so I am really stuck on trying to socialise him! He has our older dog to play with, but I know that's not enough. I feel like I am failing him.

At least the pug was friendly!

Don't go back !! Nothing worse than supposed trainers/socialisers who don't do their job.

Perhaps find out who the pug owner is and have some interaction with owner and pug.

If you can not change classes maybe ring around some vets there may be other classes around that you can attend. I probably wouldnt go back either.

Agree - don't go back.

Your instructor should take charge.... thats their job.....

I don't know personally, but from what I read on DOL there are too many cowboys around

But then is that a risk because he is not fully vaccinated yet?

Socialisation as a puppy is more important than being up to date with vaccinations. No doubt that opinion will horrify some people, but I have discussed this view with some vets and they tend to agree as well.

I'd give Luci Ellem a try. Going by the website posted, she is the lady who trains the Camana Dancing Dogs troup.

[Nushie]

Jager attended his first class at puppy school on the weekend. I was actually pretty impressed. The class only had 4 pups (brochure said max of 6 so it was never going to be big). We had a good mix i think - personality wise and they only got to socialise one on one to start with to see how they would react etc. The teacher was very nice, clear and helpful. Answered any questions and really broke down each step. Jager already had most of it sorted but we were stuggling with the 'down' position and now we are on our way to getting that as well.

If i were in your position i would speak to the teacher of the class. See what they say if you still arent happy then change classes / school. No point in going if you and your pup cant get anything out of it.

[Little Gifts]

My pup was one of those that all the other 'parents' were worried about! I really thought she was going to get thrown out. She was always the first one to piddle on the floor each week and she even ate the graduation cap that everyone was supposed to have their photo taken in on graduation night!

She was a rescue staffy and 12 weeks when she started puppy school. She was already well socialised with other dogs who were much bigger than her and who played very roughly with her. So at puppy school if there was screaming from around the corner then it was usually my girl at the heart of it all. The funny thing was at the end of it (I was a wreck!) the other parents told me that initially they were worried but how good it had been for their pups to be with a more boisturous pup. The feedback from one was that their shy pup had learnt to stand up for itself in a controlled environment and was much more outgoing as a result. Another told me they had been treating their swf as some little fragile thing that needed spoiling/protecting and realised that it was actually a dog who needed to be treated more like a dog than a grand child.

My girl wasn't aggressive (all play no fights) but you can imagine her size and enthusiasm might've been intimidating. Funny thing is there were 2 tiny guinea pig type sibling pups there and they loved playing with my girl the best. She is now 2.5 years old and still plays rough and still loves every dog regardless of their shape, size or fur growth, but recognises and respects the signs from other dogs much better now.

[Oscar (AmBull)]

Alot of people think puppy schools are where puppies should play and interact, this isn't the case and it shouldn't be because there will always be dogs that aren't suitable to be with your puppy, you're at puppy school to learn together with your puppy and hopefully create a more neutral grounding for your puppy around other dogs rather than them finding them a high value item.

I wish I knew this prior to puppy class; we had a class of fairly boisterous dogs, a Great Dane, Border Collie, Blue Heeler, German Sheppard. The class was basically a large free for all and Oscar learnt that dogs are high value.

Being a new pet owner, not owning a dog on my own before, we just took what the instructor said/did as she knew what she was doing, clearly not. This has caused us a considerable amount of trouble, as we now find that Oscar places a huge high value on dogs, well above that of food or toys.

We are training him now to hopefully break him of this but it is definitely a long and slow process, which we have been working on since the puppy school. Therefore, in my experience, I would err on the side of caution. Just be aware that the person taking the class may not know all they present they do, which is a mistake I will not make again. I think that puppy classes can be brilliant, if done correctly. In the end it is your puppy, and don’t do anything you feel uncomfortable doing, even if pressured to do so.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Hi!

Puppy classes are good if you're a first time dog handler. Also if you want to socialise your dog, go to an off leash park.

i would never take a small puppy to an off leash park, the risks are far too high

[Little Gifts]

What is meant by dogs have a high value? Is that like going there is all about the other dogs (for your dog) rather than what your dog is going there to learn in relation to you the owner? I guess I looked at puppy school like the start of training - getting used to being around other people and other dogs and in a different environment and me and my dog learning from that. Next phase was beginners training - my dog and I doing more structured one on one work both alone and in a group, to the point that the focus was always on me and not on what the other dogs or people were doing around us. This was in an effort to get my dog to respond to my commands each time I made them. Further training after that was also reinforcing the bond and response plus introducing more stimulating activities for the type of dog she had become.

That's how I have seen the journey to date but is that wrong? One thing I am always concious of is my friend's who have single dogs that never interact with other dogs after puppy school and seem to lose the skill to interact successfully with new dogs quite quickly. Sometimes reinforced by panicky owners as well. I don't know how you fix that so I've always felt socialisation (as opposed to training and as opposed to straight out play) is important. Have I got it wrong or have I focussed on the wrong aspects of things? To me the dog/owner relationship is always a work in progress because our lives never stay the same so how can our responses to it?

[corvus]

I think socialisation is an ongoing progress as well, Puppy_Sniffer. A lot of emphasis is put on that socialisation period, but that whole first two years is important if you ask me.

I have taken a small, frightened puppy to an off leash dog park. It amazes me how many people do it and with far less care than I did and their dogs end up wonderfully appropriate anyway. I knew the dogs I was dealing with, and I knew they wouldn't hurt him even by accident and that they wouldn't chase him if he ran away, but I kept him on a short leash anyway. I think it's a must for puppies in parks at first. I always wince when people bring puppies in and just let them go. Still, most of them adjust. Just not the way I'd do it.

[sas]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I appreciate it.

Aussielover, Oscar is a GR, so he is pretty big and goofy himself.

I think we might give it one more week and see how it goes. Hopefully now that the instructor knows what all the pups are like she will plan the class accordingly. I might just have to make sure that Oscar stays away from the pups that might scare him.

I will send the instructor an email and let her know my concerns. If I'm not happy with the response then I guess that might make up my mind for me!

I really wish more of my friends/family had dogs that I could introduce Oscar to!

She should never have put your puppy in that position to start with so I wouldn't be thinking she knows better now. I'd walk away and call Luci Ellem who is famous for her puppy schools and book in with her.

[sas]

What is meant by dogs have a high value? Is that like going there is all about the other dogs (for your dog) rather than what your dog is going there to learn in relation to you the owner? I guess I looked at puppy school like the start of training - getting used to being around other people and other dogs and in a different environment and me and my dog learning from that. Next phase was beginners training - my dog and I doing more structured one on one work both alone and in a group, to the point that the focus was always on me and not on what the other dogs or people were doing around us. This was in an effort to get my dog to respond to my commands each time I made them. Further training after that was also reinforcing the bond and response plus introducing more stimulating activities for the type of dog she had become.

That's how I have seen the journey to date but is that wrong? One thing I am always concious of is my friend's who have single dogs that never interact with other dogs after puppy school and seem to lose the skill to interact successfully with new dogs quite quickly. Sometimes reinforced by panicky owners as well. I don't know how you fix that so I've always felt socialisation (as opposed to training and as opposed to straight out play) is important. Have I got it wrong or have I focussed on the wrong aspects of things? To me the dog/owner relationship is always a work in progress because our lives never stay the same so how can our responses to it?

Yes high value means your dog will get over excited by the pressence of other dogs, won't listen to you when other dogs are around and maybe rude and get themselves into a scrap because they don't act appropriately around other dogs.

You can always socialise your puppy with other dogs and have them play granted you trust that other puppy or dog however puppy school isn't actually about that and that's where alot of people go wrong.

I personaly don't believe puppy schools should have free play because there are always going to dogs of different ages, sizes and temperaments and this is a critical learning period that they don't need to be bullied by another dog in. So many puppy pre-schools are run by people who don't actually know what they're doing.

Learning how to help your dog meet and greet other dogs, when to step in and calm down interactions is far more valuable in my opinion than just letting them loose and hoping everything will be ok.

I'd far prefer my dog to be able to walk past another dog calmly than loose the plot either in excitment or a fear aggressive response.

Edited June 21, 2010 by sas

[Danois]

Worth a try I guesss.

Maybe I'm being too negative about the situation because I had this image of a group of puppies running around having fun with each other, and then that didn't happen.

The instructor did make some attempt to control the situation. She made the owner pick up their pup whenever it had a go at any of the others and make it settle, and then tried to make the pup that was frightened by it feel at ease with treats etc. It just didn't seem to have any effect. The same thing just kept happening. Oscar wouldn't take any treats when he was frightened.

I too would walk away from a puppy class that was all about puppies running around and having fun. As others have said - its about learning for you and the puppy - not a free for all social event. There are other ways of socialising the puppy.

Our puppy class was the first 4 lessons sitting apart from each other and going through the class. Puppies learnt about sitting quietly and that they can be around other dogs without interaction (i.e. a degree of neutralisation).

The last class, at the end, the puppies got some off lead time. We were split into large and small puppies and then the instructors selected the appropriate dogs to be let off together. Play was closely supervised and behaviours stopped where necessary and instruction given re why it was not appropriate etc

[Magstar]

We did do settling/sitting quietly activities as well. The first part of the lesson was teaching the basics (on lead) and settling. Then we had about 10 mins offlead, then another settling exercise, and then the dogs were let off lead again for the last part of the class. I guess I'm just unhappy about the fact the the off leash time wasn't more controlled. When I did puppy school 11 yrs ago with Maggie I remember that only a couple of pups were let off together at a time and that worked quite well.

Its also a real shame that 2/5 of the pups in the class are rescues from horrible backgrounds and that is why they have problems with the other pups.

[corvus]

Well, I think there's a balance. Kivi was completely useless in puppy class if he was expected to not interact with the other puppies at all. I got quite frustrated about it, because there were other puppies in the class that wanted to play with him and they weren't allowed, so I would spend the whole class with a puppy that was turning himself inside out and barking and carrying on because he was in a state of such frustration. If he'd been allowed just ten minutes of supervised play and/or greeting with puppies that were up for it he would have been much easier to handle and much less disruptive the whole class. In that same situation Erik would have been quite happy. I don't think there is a cookie cutter approach to socialising puppies. You do what suits your puppy. Some puppies are born social butterflies and others need a more gentle approach. Whatever the case, I think they should just be allowed to go at their own pace, and if there are a couple of puppies that are around the same place and want to play, then let them play.

[Guest belgian.blue]

Had a similar experience when i took Ivy to a puppy school. Because she was about 14 weeks and a bigger dog the teachers couldn't give a toss about me and all the other puppies were crazy! If anyone knows the Belgian Shepherd, they are a very sensitive breed and she didn't enjoy it one bit so I only went once and then just had her play with my mums older Pointer quite a lot.

Badger also never went to one, he's learnt from Ivy and is one tough, brave Pointer.

[Guest belgian.blue]

Its also a real shame that 2/5 of the pups in the class are rescues from horrible backgrounds and that is why they have problems with the other pups.

I agree with this. The main reason why Badger never went to one. I think they are a waste of money, unless you can make certain to the background of the other puppies in the class.

[Cosmolo]

They are not a waste of money if they are run by decent trainers who know what they're doing and how to adjust for different pups in the group. We do allow off lead play in pairs or threes provided the pups are appropriate to do so and the owners are taught how to supervise and intervene. We do this for a few reasons-

- the demograhpic of our pre schools have lots of off lead parks and beaches. I know, at some stage 90% of those attending my classes will take their dogs there and i want them to know as much as possible about dog body language and what to look out for.

- many of the puppies need to learn how to interact with others as they are single dogs who have had no socialisation up until the point of attending pre school- i think knowing how to interact with other dogs is important and many of my clients simply don't have access to appropriate adult dogs outside pre school.

- Some puppies need the opportunity to interact so that they can then stop, settle and focus more easily AND owners commit better to settling the puppy etc when the pup has had some interaction with the other dogs. Otherwise i get people letting their pups play on tight leads to the side because they want their pups to play and so they don't listen.

Unfortunately alot of trainers start their careers taking puppy classes- the reality is the most experienced trainers should be taking pre schools, not the newest ones. They are NOT easy classes to run properly.

ETA SOme pups do have issues with other pups- rescue pups, breeders pups, puppy farm pups- that in itself is not the problem, its the management of these pups over the pre school that is so vital. They should improve each week without adversely influencing the other pups in the group.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Cosmolo