Dogs Are "unclean" And Not To Be Kept As Pets

[Moselle]

our muslim friend adores the dogs and he's a very recent immigrant. as usual generalistations are just that, generalisations. I realise only hunting hounds are the 'norm' in that culture, but many muslims don't abide by all the religious rules.

My daughter spent a lot of time all through the middle east and was very upset over the state of all the animals, especially donkeys but many people who live there are christians and other religions too, so it's not just a muslim culture. In christianity animals a 'sub human' and dont have souls etc. ;)

It's awful what happens to animals worldwide, just awful

Yes you are so right in saying that in Christianity animals are considered not to have a soul, that is sad. ;) I was brought up with Christian beliefs but have matured to believe otherwise. So sad to read about the donkeys. ;)

[spottychick]

These are not "religious doctrines" - they are simply the result of a dictatorship making [secular] laws telling people how to live their lives - and specifically trying to stop them being too much like those evil Americans etc - and using "religion" as a device to make them comply. This way they can blame it on Allah and hope no-one notices it's just a stupid revenue-raising petty fascist law.

Religious doctrines don't just spring up overnight just because some bloke said so - even in Muslim countries

[Zhou Xuanyao]

It all comes from the Hadith, not the word of God in the Quran.

Cultural traditions (the books of the Hadith) and the word of god get mixed up, or are often treated as one and the same. Confusion abounds and no body knows what is going on. Different Muslims will tell you different story about how Islam views dogs, most of them don't really know. The reason is, the confusion is passed down from generation to generation.

So some Muslims which consider themselves to be devout will indeed keep dogs as pets, others realize they can but because of the way they have been raised do not feel affection for dogs or are afraid of them.

[Zug Zug]

Seeing the state of some dogs overseas I can understand why people from those places might want to keep their distance.

I notice in our local neighbourhood that quite a few people give even my very fluffy little dogs a wide berth on the footpath. We also had a Taiwanese exchange student who lived with us for a while (a few years ago) and she was even scared of our very gentle little bichon for the first few weeks. She got used to the dogs but you could tell she didn't want them near her.

I figure that's fair enough - not everyone needs to love dogs do they? Cruelty - a different story altogether.

[mita]

Cultural traditions (the books of the Hadith) and the word of god get mixed up, or are often treated as one and the same. Confusion abounds and no body knows what is going on. Different Muslims will tell you different story about how Islam views dogs, most of them don't really know. The reason is, the confusion is passed down from generation to generation.

So some Muslims which consider themselves to be devout will indeed keep dogs as pets, others realize they can but because of the way they have been raised do not feel affection for dogs or are afraid of them.

Very true. And the expression of a particular religion becomes different between various countries. Same for some of the other major religions, too.

Growing up, I had Irish, English & Maltese Catholics for relatives....& they were very different on how their religion was expressed.

Islam does not have a central figure who pronounces on the 'rules' worldwide....as the catholics have a pope & a Vatican. Muslim beliefs depend on ongoing interpretations by scholars of their sacred texts. For example, while the Iranian cleric is fulminating about keeping pet dogs, a leading US muslim scholar is saying proscriptions against pet dogs (& especially their saliva!) don't count any more.

And, LP is correct, there are other texts rather than the Koran.

Into this mix comes the general culture & political history of a country. With some interpretations wanting to have no separation between the religious rules & the social rules. The hard-liners presently ruling the roost in Iran push that latter line. And it's why hard-core fundamentalist pronouncements are frequently coming out of Iran.

They're not in line, tho', with the feelings of the majority of Iranians....who tend to be young & well-educated. With many of them taking part in the protests for reform in recent years, where some of them were killed. They belong to a generation with strong ties, via education & technology, to the rest of the world. So it's not surprising that a hard-line cleric has discovered numbers of Iranians keep pet dogs.

Edited June 21, 2010 by mita

[pikespooches]

Cleanliness is a relative term you'll often find that the people who make the loudest noises about hygiene are often the ones that dont wash their hands after they go to the toilet.

Bahahaha how so very very true, we get more transmission of disease from our human counterparts mostly due to bad hygeine practices than anywhere else.

[kelpiekaye]

I can understand how they feel towards dogs. If they've been set in a particular way for centuries, there's no way we can expect them to change straight away. They're not like western society, and we have to remember that they don't dress up toy poodles in fluffy pink jackets or cart poms around in prams. The dogs there are bred for a purpose and keep to that purpose, which is not companionship or replacement for children and/or partners.

Well said. It makes you realize how lucky we are to live in our culture.

[Bartok]

Do they allow dogs in Islamic countries that can be used and human aide?

Like Guide or assistance dogs etc?

I also know of some Aussie Muslims that love dogs and do have them as pets.

Edited June 21, 2010 by Bartok

[mita]

Do they allow dogs in Islamic countries that can be used and human aide?

Like Guide or assistance dogs etc?

Example from the UK. Also shows how muslim beliefs depend on on-going interpretation of its holy texts, by scholars.

Same time, tho', a US Islamic scholar has said that all pet dogs should be allowed as there's no worries about disease & dogs' saliva....which started it all way back in history.

From The Sunday Times

December 23, 2007

Muslims break taboo to allow guide dog into mosque

Abul Taher

A RETRIEVER is in training to become the first dog in Britain to be permitted to enter a mosque, acting as a guide for its blind Muslim owner...

The mosque took its decision after advice from imams and scholars at the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB), who carried out a full review of Islamic teaching on dogs.

The animal is now being trained by the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association to curb its natural friendly instinct to jump up and lick people. Any worshipper who touched the dog’s nose, or whose clothes were touched by saliva, would have to wash straightaway.

The retriever is being taught to sit in a purpose-built kennel outside the prayer hall of the mosque and wait for its owner, Mahomed Khatri, 17, to come out after worship.

Khatri is being trained to handle the dog, which will enable him to worship more often at the Al Falah. He is expected to pay his first visit with the dog early next year.

This initiative in Leicester may lead to an easing of the anticanine stance taken by mosques in Britain.

Ibrahim Mogra, a senior imam at the MCB, who has overseen the review of teaching on guide dogs, said they could be justified as they served an “urgent practical purpose”.

He said: “We found the Koran allows Muslims to use dogs for hunting. So if Muslims can eat a prey bitten by dogs, then there should not be a problem using them to guide you if you are blind.”

Khatri, an A-level student at Loughborough further education college, lost his sight in 2005 because of detached retinas. He is also a member of the national blind cricket team.

He added: “Having a guide dog will give me complete independence to go anywhere.

Now I only go around with friends, or just stay in.”

The MCB reexamined the rules on dogs after incidents in which Muslim restaurant owners and taxi drivers refused customers with guide dogs. In June Sallahaddin Abdullah was fined £200 in Cambridge after he refused to allow a blind couple into his taxi because they had a guide dog.

The Muslim Council of Britain issued a ruling after saying British Muslims should allow guide dogs to enter restaurants and taxis.

Edited June 21, 2010 by mita

[Bartok]

Thanks Mita, that was an interesting read

[Monah]

Cleanliness is a relative term you'll often find that the people who make the loudest noises about hygiene are often the ones that dont wash their hands after they go to the toilet.

Bahahaha how so very very true, we get more transmission of disease from our human counterparts mostly due to bad hygeine practices than anywhere else.

this reminded me, (bit yukky sorry).

many places my daughter went in the middle east, the people defecated anywhere, just dropped their pants (males) and did it. :D and didn't even cover it up. I thought, sure!! but they (kids) were so amazed that they took pics as at one time their vehicle had to stop, and a nice pile was left.

No water, loo paper, washing hands etc, and this boy (about 14??) had bread in his hand at the time.

So yes, hygiene is all relative isn't it?

I guess kissing my dogs would turn their stomachs as much as this did to us.

[mita]

Some great pics & info here from the website of a Canadian convert to Islam married to a Moroccan.

Shows how the hunting dogs in Islam were prized....& still are.

Also explains how there's a huge range of interpretations about how dogs should only be in the 'service of man'. Like, some (as the Royal family of Jordan) believe being a pet fits that.

Point also made is that dogs should be well looked after. Interesting links to Muslim vets who cut thro' the cultural noise.

http://www.chezchiara.com/2010/03/family-d...art-i-some.html

[mita]

This is about Dr Khaled Abou El Fadi, the US Islamic scholar who argues all the 'beliefs' about dogs should be dropped. As they come from old folk beliefs. He owns 2 rescue dogs as pets...Honey & Baby. (From Los Angeles Times):

Abou El Fadl prides himself on questioning just about everything. He could not fathom a God who would condemn such loving, loyal creatures. So about five years ago, he set out to investigate.

After a lengthy process of textual research and prayer for divine guidance, he concluded that reports against dogs were passed on through questionable chains of transmissions or contradicted by more favorable reports - for instance, one story of Muhammad praying with his dogs playing nearby.

Some reports against dogs bear uncanny similarities to Arab folklore, Abou El Fadl says, leading him to suspect that someone took the tales and attributed them to the prophet.

As Abou El Fadl speaks, Honey snoozes near his side. The yellow cocker spaniel mix was abandoned by his owners and was cowering in the corner of an animal shelter, dirty and racked by seizures, when the scholar and his wife rescued him.

They also rescued Baby, a black shepherd a day away from being killed, and Calbee, an abused dog who smelled of garbage for a year and still feels secure only when curled up inside a plastic laundry basket.

Edited June 21, 2010 by mita

[Bartok]

Cleanliness is a relative term you'll often find that the people who make the loudest noises about hygiene are often the ones that dont wash their hands after they go to the toilet.

Bahahaha how so very very true, we get more transmission of disease from our human counterparts mostly due to bad hygeine practices than anywhere else.

this reminded me, (bit yukky sorry).

many places my daughter went in the middle east, the people defecated anywhere, just dropped their pants (males) and did it. :D and didn't even cover it up. I thought, sure!! but they (kids) were so amazed that they took pics as at one time their vehicle had to stop, and a nice pile was left.

No water, loo paper, washing hands etc, and this boy (about 14??) had bread in his hand at the time.

So yes, hygiene is all relative isn't it?

I guess kissing my dogs would turn their stomachs as much as this did to us.

I'm sure ppl think I am a pig as I forget to wash my hands after touching animals before eating.

[DerRottweiler]

Cleanliness is a relative term you'll often find that the people who make the loudest noises about hygiene are often the ones that dont wash their hands after they go to the toilet.

Bahahaha how so very very true, we get more transmission of disease from our human counterparts mostly due to bad hygeine practices than anywhere else.

this reminded me, (bit yukky sorry).

many places my daughter went in the middle east, the people defecated anywhere, just dropped their pants (males) and did it. :D and didn't even cover it up. I thought, sure!! but they (kids) were so amazed that they took pics as at one time their vehicle had to stop, and a nice pile was left.

No water, loo paper, washing hands etc, and this boy (about 14??) had bread in his hand at the time.

So yes, hygiene is all relative isn't it?

I guess kissing my dogs would turn their stomachs as much as this did to us.

Like where?

I've been to the UAE, Saudi Arabia and Iran on holiday and did not see such behaviour at all......maybe in the slums?

[Monah]

In the country. They spent many months in the sticks in Jordan, syria, egypt, (turkey and lebanon but didn't see it there), along the Iraqi border.

One bad spot was at an old crusader castle (can't remember which one!) where there were 'camps' of people selling bits and pieces.

Bartok :D Washing hands after pets??? Are we meant to do that?? next you'll tell me we are not supossed to share our plates

[Moselle]

Cleanliness is a relative term you'll often find that the people who make the loudest noises about hygiene are often the ones that dont wash their hands after they go to the toilet.

Bahahaha how so very very true, we get more transmission of disease from our human counterparts mostly due to bad hygeine practices than anywhere else.

this reminded me, (bit yukky sorry).

many places my daughter went in the middle east, the people defecated anywhere, just dropped their pants (males) and did it. and didn't even cover it up. I thought, sure!! but they (kids) were so amazed that they took pics as at one time their vehicle had to stop, and a nice pile was left.

No water, loo paper, washing hands etc, and this boy (about 14??) had bread in his hand at the time.

So yes, hygiene is all relative isn't it?

I guess kissing my dogs would turn their stomachs as much as this did to us.

I'm sure ppl think I am a pig as I forget to wash my hands after touching animals before eating.

At the end of the day there is much less risk of catching anything from not washing one's hands from one's pet than human beings providing that the pet is wormed and healthy. The IQ of certain individuals leaves me perplexed.

[spottychick]

This is about Dr Khaled Abou El Fadi, the US Islamic scholar who argues all the 'beliefs' about dogs should be dropped. As they come from old folk beliefs. He owns 2 rescue dogs as pets...Honey & Baby. (From Los Angeles Times):

Abou El Fadl prides himself on questioning just about everything. He could not fathom a God who would condemn such loving, loyal creatures. So about five years ago, he set out to investigate.

After a lengthy process of textual research and prayer for divine guidance, he concluded that reports against dogs were passed on through questionable chains of transmissions or contradicted by more favorable reports - for instance, one story of Muhammad praying with his dogs playing nearby.

Some reports against dogs bear uncanny similarities to Arab folklore, Abou El Fadl says, leading him to suspect that someone took the tales and attributed them to the prophet.

As Abou El Fadl speaks, Honey snoozes near his side. The yellow cocker spaniel mix was abandoned by his owners and was cowering in the corner of an animal shelter, dirty and racked by seizures, when the scholar and his wife rescued him.

They also rescued Baby, a black shepherd a day away from being killed, and Calbee, an abused dog who smelled of garbage for a year and still feels secure only when curled up inside a plastic laundry basket.

That's a lovely story mita

[traciemc]

I'm glad I live where I do. Not many moslems up this way,(yet) so I don't have to deal with their offensive beliefs.

[Crisovar]

charming as ever