Guard / Protection Training

[Diane J]

I am looking for any information on how to go about getting a couple of dogs suitably trained for guard & protection work in Perth.

My family owns a supermarket and liquor store (opening in few months) and we are now looking at having 2 dogs on site, mainly to act as a deterrent to the local trouble makers and to protect when they do cause trouble (especially when the liquor store opens).

What I want to know is, are there any special things/requirements that we have to look into and consider. I know the dogs will require specialist training but any info about laws, insurance, etc and anything else would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[DerRottweiler]

It is good to see you are willing to research and learn prior to making any decisions.

There are legal issues with having a trained protection dog(s) on a premises that acts as a retail outlet and your insurer for public liability would also have issues with this. You could perhaps address this with having a trained security guard on site to handle the dog(s).

What exactly will the function of the dogs be? To deal with drunk customers who show aggression, or to prevent theft etc? Doesn't seem necessary in my opinion, I've never seen a liquor store with protection trained dogs before. But it is your store and your choice.

In terms of the training itself, not all dogs are cut out for it, even working breeds. A temperament test would need to be conducted and if the dog were to pass, then you could proceed with protection work and even then, you won't have proper protection dogs within a few months, it takes lots of dedication and effort.

This site should be more useful for your inquiries:

http://www.specialistcanines.com/forums.php

Edited June 19, 2010 by DerRottwelier

[Burkes]

The dogs would both need a handler with them and for specialist dog handlers you are looking at bigger bikkies than just a plain old security guard. You would also need to check with you health dept re having a dog in a supermarket full time. There may be some issues with that.

It would probably be a whole lot easier to just hire a guard. Or, if you are really intent on having a dog, look for a company that will do K9 patrols.

A trained protection dog will also need ongoing intensive training, something that you may not have time for when running a business. Your public liability insurance will also go up considerably.

I would spend your money on a top of the range CCTV system and if you really think you need it, a good security company. Oh, and make friends with the local cops to encourage them to come past!

Edited June 19, 2010 by Burkes

[Greytmate]

If people are serious about causing you trouble, they will simply bait the dog.

Better to put good surveillance equipment in, and make it physically very hard for people to break in to the premises.

And train staff about handling troublemakers before you get to the point where anyone needs protection.

[Kavik]

If people are serious about causing you trouble, they will simply bait the dog.

Better to put good surveillance equipment in, and make it physically very hard for people to break in to the premises.

And train staff about handling troublemakers before you get to the point where anyone needs protection.

On the dog side of things, agree with this and also visit http://www.specialistcanines.com like suggested

About training staff on what to so with troublemakers, bit of a plug, my father in law (documentary maker David Goldie, who has made docos like Nobody's Children and The Big House as well as Spirit 2000 ) has made a DVD called Surviving Crime which includes sections on what to do ina robbery, after effects of robbery as well as interviewing criminals so you can see their motivation etc.

http://www.survivingcrime.com/index.php

[Diane J]

Thank you Burkes and DerRottwelier - your replies are the exact ones I was after and answer the questions I was hoping to be answered.

When my brother asked me what I thought about getting the guard dogs (rotts or dobes) for the businesses - my immediate thought and reply to him was that it would be a huge responsibility with many issues that had to be looked into. Firstly with the supermarket, there would be no way that the dog would be allowed in the premises (health regulations and all) and with the liquor store, I thought that it might be better of just having a licensed security guard with dog at the door as a deterrent to potential trouble .... although I don't know how good for business that will be

In all honestly, I'm hoping to try and convince my brother that we should look at other options to bump up security without having to use the dogs at all - and coming from a dog owner (me) that has owned large breeds (rottweilers & dogo argentinos) for 20 years, hopefully he can see that if I have serious reservations about this he will reconsider his idea. It's one thing having a guard dog patrolling a car yard in the evenings, but when it comes to dealing with the public - there is just too much risk as far as I'm concerned.

In regards to CCTV, that is more than covered. One thing I have to say about the City of Belmont and the presence of cameras on Kooyong Road in Rivervale - that is no problem. And our store has every inch covered - inside and out..... Just this week, we had an incident where an aboriginal woman attacked my brother with a brick outside the front of store. He caught her (and her family) on our CCTV begging store customers for money on their (customers) way in and out and when he went out and told them to bugger off, she threatened to knock his head off his shoulders and next thing he knew a brick was flying towards his head which he deflected with hand. She definitely came prepared!

Long story short, they ran off - he called the police, they came and he showed them the video and they said to call them if he had any more trouble with them and 15 minutes later, they were back. Back on the phone to cops, and they were back at the store within a couple of minutes but the woman and male jumped on the bus but left their tween son behind. Cops grabbed the boy, took his details (and he is known to both the police and us as they been caught and barred from our store for shoplifting before, and only that day we caught them stealing after looking back at security tapes after the fact). There is an order being processed to prevent them coming anywhere near our store that will last 3 months, but that will not stop them and they are only one example of trouble what we have to deal with everyday.

If anyone else has any other input (their views on using dogs and other security ideas) I can pass on to my brother, keep them coming.

Thanks

[Diane J]

If people are serious about causing you trouble, they will simply bait the dog.

Better to put good surveillance equipment in, and make it physically very hard for people to break in to the premises.

And train staff about handling troublemakers before you get to the point where anyone needs protection.

And that is another of my main worries! Where the business is located - THAT is exactly what they are capable of

Surveillance equipment is in and place and the premises are secured like Fort Knox - it's the people we're having problems with and have to deal with.

The staff (the girls at checkout are the first to see who's coming into the store) also know what to do when known shoplifters/trouble makers come in and there is a procedure in place to notify my brothers & father as soon as potential trouble is around.

Thanks Kavik - will definitely look into that DVD. And just checked out the site - great info and will get my brother on it

Edited June 20, 2010 by Diane J

[Red Fox]

Sounds like you need a security guard as opposed to dogs. A trained guard on the door would be more valuable in my opinion, not only as a deterent but also as someone who is trained to handle trouble until the police arrive if need be. It would probably be cheaper too

OT and being nosey but did you own dogo argentinos here or O/S? My OH met a few in Europe and fell in love with them however I was under the impression that they were banned/restricted in Australia??

[Diane J]

Sounds like you need a security guard as opposed to dogs. A trained guard on the door would be more valuable in my opinion, not only as a deterent but also as someone who is trained to handle trouble until the police arrive if need be. It would probably be cheaper too

OT and being nosey but did you own dogo argentinos here or O/S? My OH met a few in Europe and fell in love with them however I was under the impression that they were banned/restricted in Australia??

I'm definitely agree and a security guard would definitely be a much better option.

As for the dogo's - I only wish I could own them here! I've moved back to Aus only a few months ago but was fortunate enough to own 5 amazing dogos over the years in both Thailand and Spain. My heart still breaks when I look at photos of them because I miss them so much, and my 6 year old daughter who only ever grew up with them finds it silly that australia has stupid rules that stopped us from bringing them back with us:(

I had always been a rotty lover (and still am) but the dogo argentino was something extra special. In the next 6 months we'll get another family addition - either a rotty or Boerboel - but I don't think even they could ever live up to what we've known and lived with that comes after you've owned a Dogo.

Di

[Diane J]

Thanks guys for the replies - I passed on all the comments to my brother and he now sees that getting dogs for security issues isn't an option or solution to our problems. Think he'll be going with a guard (the 2 legged kind) to deal with our problems

[Moselle]

If people are serious about causing you trouble, they will simply bait the dog.

Better to put good surveillance equipment in, and make it physically very hard for people to break in to the premises.

And train staff about handling troublemakers before you get to the point where anyone needs protection.

I couldn't agree more. Anyone seriously wanting to rob a place would only need to bait the dog and that is the very reason that I would never contemplate using a dog as a deterrent. Much better resort to technology.

[DerRottweiler]

If people are serious about causing you trouble, they will simply bait the dog.

Better to put good surveillance equipment in, and make it physically very hard for people to break in to the premises.

And train staff about handling troublemakers before you get to the point where anyone needs protection.

I couldn't agree more. Anyone seriously wanting to rob a place would only need to bait the dog and that is the very reason that I would never contemplate using a dog as a deterrent. Much better resort to technology.

You can teach them food refusal techniques, it isn't 100% but you can achieve good results.

[Nekhbet]

a well trained dog is also trained in food refusal to ensure they are not able to be baited. Although dogs do a good job insurance wise you are better off investing in a static guard instead of dogs that companies see more as a liability for litigation from the person bitten.

Most dogs in yards are simply loud and untrained. There are few people in the country who can train a dog to do this job properly we're quite young when it comes to work like this.

[DerRottweiler]

Valid points.

If you do get a security guard though, don't go through big companies.

Usually you get some scrawny peasant who has just done some short course, it isn't even a deterrent.

Get a bouncer type fellow.

[noisymina]

Talk to your local locksmiths about what intruders do to dogs.

Baiting is the least of it.