Liver Problems, Advice Needed Pls

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I have an old cattle cross that I rescued a 2.5 years ago, she's about 12 yrs old.

6 months after I got her, she had a complete collapse - she fell and couldn't get up. It took a couple of months of 3 times a week chiro/acupuncture treatments coupled with a special diet and painkillers and she returned to normal. At that time she had a blood test as they thought it could be cancer. The only issue was one of her liver - ALP I think it was, should be under 100 and it was 1200. They told me she could never have any surgery therefore as anaesthetic can't be used on dogs with this liver issue.

For the last 2 years she has been well but in the last few weeks has had the odd bit of strange behaviour which I thought may be dementia, the vet initially thought a brain tumour.

Last week she had a night of vomiting and she has lost weight in the last two weeks and stopped eating her whole dinner.

So we did blood tests. The results came back to show her 3 liver elements as all being very elevated from normal levels.

When I got the results last night, I honestly thought we were at the end. The timing couldn't be worse as I'm going away in less than 2 weeks, it can't be altered and she was going to a friend's place while I'm away.

I had prepared myself to put her to sleep this week. I love her dearly but I did not want her to go through any stress and strain of settling in to a strange home whilst feeling unwell.

Tonight my vet has put a spanner in the works, they did another test on the bile and found it was normal levels. She is saying that we need to do an ultrasound to find out what is wrong with the liver and possibly my dog can go on medication and a special diet.

Has anyone been through this? My vet can't give me any idea of how long my dog will live of course, I don't know therefore if it is weeks or months?

I'm so worried about going away and leaving her - my friend has had a dog with a liver tumour and is not concerned about looking after her but I am still worried.

Edited June 19, 2010 by dogmad

[Chocolate]

A friend of mine has an elderly dog going through a very similar thing to yours. She has blood in her poos and was vomiting up her food. The vet said it is the liver. My friend was going away on hols and didn't expect her to make it more than a few day but they put her on regular small meals and and she's made a real come back enjoying her food and walks again. It is a matter of time but they can rally even when you think they are at deaths door.

[Rappie]

An elevation in all of the liver enzymes suggests that there is a problem with the liver itself. An elevation of ALP alone may be caused by non-liver issues such as chronic inflammation, steroid administration etc. The fact that all the liver enzymes are high tells us that there is both damage to the cells of the liver and some change to bile flow out of it. The degree of elevation does not directly reflect the severity of disease - you can have high numbers from an acute process, you can have low numbers because there is an extensive problem and very little normal liver left.

It is hard to speculate. If the bile acids are normal it means that the liver is functional. If the liver is functional with high liver enzymes, then an ultrasound is the next step to assess the appearance of the liver itself.

If for some reason an ultrasound is not possible, then often we will treat for a medical problem and reassess the values after a few weeks. We often use antibiotics and antioxidant type medications like Denosyl in conjunction with a liver diet. If there are neurological signs as well as a liver problem then there is an additional medication used as well.

Edit to add: I just saw your question about time frames - that would really depend what is causing the problem. If it responds to treatment then it might resolve, or at least be manageable for a good period of time (several month to years). It's very hard to give a time frame, often we have to just take it a day at a time.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Rappie

[Erny]

Dogmad - this is the way I see it, objectively and I guess a bit clinically, speaking.

• You have to go away and there's no changing that fact.
  
• Your friend is ok with looking after your dog even though there is this undefined illness.
  

Then there are the options for your dog.

• PTS because you are concerned about her settling in to a different home whilst she is unwell.
  
• Let her see how she settles - it will go one way or the other.
  

My opinion? If your friend is capable of looking after your dog and ensuring that veterinary attention is and will be available to her whilst you are away, then give your dog a chance. Being cold about this (because I'm trying to be factual rather than emotional), what is the worst scenario that could happen whilst you're away? The same outcome as what you are thinking, but at least with the chance thrown in, I think.

And know that YOU will more likely be worrying more than your dog.

Ok - now that's said ..............

I know exactly how you feel and what you mean and the turmoil you would be experiencing. I'd find it dang hard too. I hope you can find what's causing the issue and medicate to remedy or at the very least, steady it, before you go away.

Edited June 19, 2010 by Erny

[WoofnHoof]

I reckon go with the liver diet and see how she goes when i was reading up on liver shunts it seemed to be cropping up in acds a lot although at 12 its unlikley that it's congenital although not impossible from what i read. Hope she picks up for you but at least there are treaments and mangement strategies for liver problems so I'd see how she goes with diet and meds.

[jadesamara]

Hi Dogmad,

Our Dobermann was diagnosed with advanced liver disease last year, aged 13. Every six months the vet did bloods to check levels, and they kept rising. She wasn't showing much in the way of symptoms except vomitting after meals, losing weight, and enlarged liver. She got a bit worse in December, doing weird things like crying, sticking her head into bushes etc, and the vet explained that she is going "loopy" as the toxins are reaching her brain (instead of being filtered by the liver). She was in no pain, the vet assured me, so I did not have her PTS. We had an ultrasound done 2 days before Christmas, to see how bad the damage actually was. Once the vet had the results that afternoon, he called us. His exact words were "She has days, maybe weeks."

Well, a lot of tears were shed on hearing the news, but our girl surprised us. She finally succumbed 31/3/2010, aged 14yrs 1wk. She was having a run outside, then came in and plonked onto her bed, passing peacefully. I am glad we didn't have her PTS, as those precious 3 months meant everything to us.

I hope things go as easy for you, Dogmad. At least they are not in any pain (well, Jade wasn't), and she was too far advanced to try medications the vet said. So things may not be as hopeless as you think. Hang in there.

[rajacadoo]

I reckon go with the liver diet and see how she goes when i was reading up on liver shunts it seemed to be cropping up in acds a lot although at 12 its unlikley that it's congenital although not impossible from what i read. Hope she picks up for you but at least there are treaments and mangement strategies for liver problems so I'd see how she goes with diet and meds.

A bit OT, so apologies to the OP

Woofn Hoof, that is VERY interesting about your comment about ACD's developing this disease, a lot... I certainly cnat disagree with you... I have had a young bitch PTS with this horrible disease at about 7 months of age ... Now if only breeders would admit to this disease, so we could start to see if this disease is as prevalent as I, (and I suspect you as well !!!), believe it to be. I tried my hardest to find out if this was an issue with other breeders, and I was met with a cold, stoney silence, leading me to believe the problem is greater than we all believe...

[WoofnHoof]

I reckon go with the liver diet and see how she goes when i was reading up on liver shunts it seemed to be cropping up in acds a lot although at 12 its unlikley that it's congenital although not impossible from what i read. Hope she picks up for you but at least there are treaments and mangement strategies for liver problems so I'd see how she goes with diet and meds.

A bit OT, so apologies to the OP

Woofn Hoof, that is VERY interesting about your comment about ACD's developing this disease, a lot... I certainly cnat disagree with you... I have had a young bitch PTS with this horrible disease at about 7 months of age ... Now if only breeders would admit to this disease, so we could start to see if this disease is as prevalent as I, (and I suspect you as well !!!), believe it to be. I tried my hardest to find out if this was an issue with other breeders, and I was met with a cold, stoney silence, leading me to believe the problem is greater than we all believe...

It's not routinely tested for in ACDs as far as I'm aware and the prevalence in the studies I read didn't specify whether the ACDs with shunts were pedigreed or just identified as ACDs. Hard to know whether it is a sign of a significant problem in the breed but I would like to hope that any breeders who are made aware of the problem in a pup take good records because while the mode of inheritance is not known it's believed that heredity could play a part. It can be a hard one to diagnose sometimes dogs will show textbook signs sometimes they will only be a bit 'off'. Also not every vet is able to spot it, my sibe had textbook symptoms yet none of the 4 vets in the practice I took him to recognised it and they were all consulted. He fell into a coma and very nearly died if he had I probably never would have known what was wrong with him, it does make me wonder how many dogs have remained undiagnosed.

The best way to spot it is to do a liver function blood test, it can be done from a young age and is often done in those breeds it is known to be a problem in.

[~Archie~]

ask the vet about using Denosyl, I have seen it used in dogs with liver issues and it has really helped support the liver and help the patients appetite & general wellbeing.

[becks]

My just about to be 7 year old Giant Schnauzer has been going through all this over the last several months. She had a 3 week course of antibiotics and has been on the royal canin liver diet for nearly 2 months now and her symptoms are much, much better then they were. She has put on weight, is full of energy. She will be going back for more tests soon to evaluate just how much of a change has happened and where to go next with her treatment.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Thank you everyone, for all the information and support. Unfortunately my girl deteriorated a little more every day and she had very bad arthritis to cope with as well as the liver issue. Because she had become snappy with my other dogs, I had to keep her separate when I wasn't here.

I just couldn't risk leaving her with someone she didn't know that well in a strange house with strange dogs, it just wasn't fair on her or anyone else. I had her put to sleep on Monday afternoon. If I hadn't been going away I would have persisted and tried everything possible but the liver was not her only major problem and she was in pain.

[Erny]

Sorry to hear your sad news and loss. It's a difficult time, to say the least. to you.

[yellowgirl]

Thank you everyone, for all the information and support. Unfortunately my girl deteriorated a little more every day and she had very bad arthritis to cope with as well as the liver issue. Because she had become snappy with my other dogs, I had to keep her separate when I wasn't here.

I just couldn't risk leaving her with someone she didn't know that well in a strange house with strange dogs, it just wasn't fair on her or anyone else. I had her put to sleep on Monday afternoon. If I hadn't been going away I would have persisted and tried everything possible but the liver was not her only major problem and she was in pain.

Oh no, I'm very sorry to hear this news dogmad . Your dear old girl is pain free and at peace now. Hugs to you :D. Hope you're okay.

eta ... And thank you Jadesamara for sharing your story. It brought a tear to my eye

Edited June 24, 2010 by yellowgirl

[jadesamara]

Thank you everyone, for all the information and support. Unfortunately my girl deteriorated a little more every day and she had very bad arthritis to cope with as well as the liver issue.

eta ... And thank you Jadesamara for sharing your story. It brought a tear to my eye

Thanks Yellowgirl. A tear did escape when I was typing my story. Jade was wonderful, and having had her longer than my skin-kids, her passing really knocked me about

But life goes on, doesn't it? I had to pull myself together for my kids' sake. We have a new Stafford pup now, and we are expecting to have a new Dobermann pup mid-September. So all is good

Dogmad, I am very sorry to hear how this tragedy ended for you. I can only begin to imagine your hurt. Look after yourself. It will get better :D