Opinion

[SpikesPuppy]

I just checked the catalogue for our recent breed specialty and if we excluded committee members from exhibiting, we would have had a grand total of 17 dogs entered! Being a small club with relatively few exhibitors (although individual dog numbers are growing), the majority of our exhibitors ARE committee members. Of that 17, only 4 dogs were owned by Victorian non-committee members, and the rest interstate dogs :D

[Shaar]

I just checked the catalogue for our recent breed specialty and if we excluded committee members from exhibiting, we would have had a grand total of 17 dogs entered! Being a small club with relatively few exhibitors (although individual dog numbers are growing), the majority of our exhibitors ARE committee members. Of that 17, only 4 dogs were owned by Victorian non-committee members, and the rest interstate dogs

In cases like that there just needs to be a bit of policing as the whether or not any committee members are 'friendly' with the judge.

If someone knows them quite well, then scrap that judge and move onto the next one on the list.

I know someone who isn't even on a committee and a judge came down here who she had bought a dog off many, many years ago.

She didn't show under him on the chance that if she did win something, it would be the talk of the show that "she owned one of his dogs"

[SpikesPuppy]

I just checked the catalogue for our recent breed specialty and if we excluded committee members from exhibiting, we would have had a grand total of 17 dogs entered! Being a small club with relatively few exhibitors (although individual dog numbers are growing), the majority of our exhibitors ARE committee members. Of that 17, only 4 dogs were owned by Victorian non-committee members, and the rest interstate dogs

In cases like that there just needs to be a bit of policing as the whether or not any committee members are 'friendly' with the judge.

If someone knows them quite well, then scrap that judge and move onto the next one on the list.

I know someone who isn't even on a committee and a judge came down here who she had bought a dog off many, many years ago.

She didn't show under him on the chance that if she did win something, it would be the talk of the show that "she owned one of his dogs"

Fairly small breed community worldwide - if we want to have a breed specialist judge- they are going to know people and dogs. So it's quite tricky really, and I suspect the same applies to many other breeds. I also think it's a little bit of an insult to the judge and their own integrity (or opinion of) to make the assumption that they cannot look past the handler on the end of the lead.

One benefit I guess we have with regard to being a small club is that our shows aren't typically a huge deal, there is no 'schmoozing' or celebration/social events to go with the show etc. And we do have a non-exhibitor collect the judge pre-show if they cannot make their own way (sometimes we 'share' a judge with other clubs too).

As I said earlier in the thread (and you highlighted regarding the lady who didn't enter for fear of backlash), I believe there are always going to be 'reasons' why so and so's dog won - if it's not because the handler is on committee, then it's because the handler is best mate's with the judge's mum or some other ridiculous reasoning. Losers need to make themselves feel better by placing blame or passing judgement rather than looking at what's on the end of their lead or taking a moment to asses their presentation or grooming skills etc. Of course, some underhanded judging surely does happen but all you need to do is put a big X next to that judges name :D

I really do think it's a bit of a minefield and am glad there are no blanket rules regarding committee & entering/showing because as demonstrated by this thread, there are so many variables!!

I agree though with your comment that if someone on committee is really friendly with a proposed judge, that judge needs to be scrapped (and would assume same would apply if said judge were known to be friendly with someone who would be likely to exhibit at the show (more of an issue for a breed specialty i imagine), but it would be equally unfair IMO to schedule a judge despite the knowledge that, for eg, a prominent person in the breed would be unable to enter or possibly feel uncomfortable about entering under due to their 'connection'.

Maybe judge's should be allocated randomly

[jedi knight]

I voted yes as long as the judge ,Judges the dog and not the person holding the lead or as you say empty lead, maybe in days to come we will see a panel of Judges at shows and the dogs win on a point system which is handed to you at the end so you can see the feedback on your dog

[SkySoaringMagpie]

Something pointed out to me last night which I hadn't clued in on - is part of the concern people have with missing out on showing to do with pointscore?

I don't do pointscore, and all my dogs are titled, so I don't feel compelled to either enter or show up at every show. Basically I show if I feel like it.

I guess if you were in pointscore tho', and it was important to you, missing a show would become a bigger deal.

I'm inclined to agree with Hogz tho', even leaving aside all the other considerations I am far too busy on the day to be able to show my dogs properly as well.

[weisnjac]

Nothing to do with Pointscores at all. It's to do with the fact that I love showing my dogs. Simple as that.

And to only have local shows twice a year, it's nice to be able to show at them. People keep saying that they are too busy running a show, ours must be different because us gereral commitee are not run off our feet, if we were not showing, we would be sitting around watching.

[brightonrock]

Fairly small breed community worldwide - if we want to have a breed specialist judge- they are going to know people and dogs.

Hang on, SP, there are thousands of Borders in the UK alone, more than 8000 registered with the KC and a popular breed in Sweden, not a small breed community worldwide surely ?

Over here, it's evident what the Breed Judge will like if you are familiar with their breeding.eg if the Judge likes to breed big then they won't look at a correct size if they should be small.

[newfsie]

At our specialty last weekend, our secretary/treasurer, President & Vice President and myself (committee member) all showed. Our secretary was also our show secretary. We are a small club and our breed relatively small in numbers, there are only 2 specialty shows in the country. If committee did not show, the entry for our show would probably have been half of what it was, probably even less!!! A show would then not be viable, nor would these exhibitors have the chance to show at a breed specialty (without the expense of travelling to the ACT).

Personally, I don't really care. Dog shows are full of face-judging and paybacks alongside the honest judges who look at the dog and not who's on the end of the lead!!! There will always be exhibitors who beloved the judging has been unjust regardless of who is or isn't on the committee.

I guess at the end of it all- if you cannot trust that the judge will not judge the dog but the handler, or will be subject to other information about dogs or exhibitors etc then DONT ENTER!!!!!

All breeds shows, or clubs who may have more than one show a year or a often rotating committee (our committee for eg has largely been unchanged for several years!!), then it's all good and well for them not to exhibit but I am against any official ruling or anything like that.

Agree completely.

i have no issues & the biggest whingers are those who dont offer there services to be on committee's.

Without these volunteers we would have no shows & given how apparently committee members supposedly always win i would think people would be knocking at the door to offer there time but generally not,they prefer to bitch instead.

You'd think so wouldn't you.

There are enough All breeds shows week in and week out for the committee not to HAVE to show at their own club shows.

Not so many for country exhibitors unless they want to travel a couple of hours each weekend.

This is one of those things about dog showing that gets me. So many people whinge about the Judge only judging faces OR say that someone has only won because they're Secretary etc. If that is really the case what the hell are we doing showing? Unless we are a face or on a committee we're all screwed. I choose to believe that it is not that way. If I was proved wrong and it was shown that it happens in the majority of shows I would give up showing as a waste of time and simply concentrate on improving my breed.

I would have to just totally agree....I have only just started showing and I would like to think that I could enter a show locally and I am on our Committee and so is my husband. Even when you are on the Committee you hardly have any contact with the Judges. Some Judges are friendlier with entries they have met before or are friends with anyway. Being on the Committee would surely not really benefit.

[SpikesPuppy]

Double post

Edited June 28, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[SpikesPuppy]

Fairly small breed community worldwide - if we want to have a breed specialist judge- they are going to know people and dogs.

Hang on, SP, there are thousands of Borders in the UK alone, more than 8000 registered with the KC and a popular breed in Sweden, not a small breed community worldwide surely ?

Over here, it's evident what the Breed Judge will like if you are familiar with their breeding.eg if the Judge likes to breed big then they won't look at a correct size if they should be small.

Try finding a qualified judge who is also a genuine specialist... Sure they exist but they seem to be far and few between- plus there is the cost involved, our club can simply not afford the thousands it costs to bring a judge in so we often have to 'share' with other clubs often resulting in perhaps a group specialist but not a Border specialist. Or the judge may agree to come over for minimal cost (such as half the airfare or something) as maybe a favor to a friend but if that were to happen, I have no doubt the friend would not show

Plus, in many European countries the dogs are heavily worked and shown less often which is another reason I believe for few specialist judges.

To get back on topic- what I am trying to say I guess is that we have very few specialist judges to show under and I feel it is unfair to expect people to miss out on exhibiting under such a judge purely because they are on the club committee.

Edited June 28, 2010 by SpikesPuppy

[yarracully]

I see no real problem with it. As others have already said if its a small country show and the committee didn't enter there wouldn't be many entered at all.

I also believe that the judge would not know which exhibitors are on the host club committee. As the judge probably only interacts with the show sec before the show, then maybe the show sec should not show but thats about it.

We had a show in our area recently where a local won BIS (not me alas). But the comments going around about the person being on the committee etc. was ridiculous. There is no way the judge would have known that exhibitor X is on the committee.

How many would know who is on the committee of any clubs unless they were pointed out first. Pick any show you like, that you are not a memeber of the host club, and see if you can identify who is on the committee. More than likely you couldn't as they don't usually wear a label saying "Committee Member". A judge is in the same position.

Now when the committee take the judges out for dinner during a two day show weekend thats a different matter as then the judge might know who is or isn't on the committee for the next day.

[Dellcara]

I also believe that the judge would not know which exhibitors are on the host club committee. As the judge probably only interacts with the show sec before the show, then maybe the show sec should not show but thats about it.

Not always I suppose it depends on the Club. I know for a fact (having been on committee), that a large show will always see committee interacting in one

way or another ... committee members are often working hard all day and will cross paths with judges ...

For most Allbreed shows I see no reason why committee can't get someone else to handle their dogs - this is seen printed in show schedules now and then.

Yes, I know there are always going to be exceptions .... the main one being Specialty Shows ...