Opinion

[-Megz-]

Pretty self explanatory really.

Feel free to respond in the thread with your thoughts not just use the Poll

[SkySoaringMagpie]

This is one of those religious subjects like neuter classes, whether judges should show, and whether grand champions should show. People are never going to agree.

I am secretary of two clubs (one group, one all breeds) and I don't show at either. For the group club, president, secretary and families/partners do not show. For the all breeds, committee do not show.

My opinion is based on living in NSW, near Canberra. It is no great sacrifice for me to not show at one All Breeds weekend a year. It is a slightly bigger sacrifice not to show at the Group club shows but it is worth it. If I want a specialist opinion I can travel to Sydney or Melbourne once a year. If i want to show at a Sighthound or Hound Group show, ditto.

The main argument for showing while on committee is that the "committee do not show" rule is offensive to the judge, and in the case of breed clubs, is unfair on the breed club committee.

Re offensive to the judge, personally being a public servant i have no issues with the fact that usually you are not avoiding an actual conflict of interest, you're avoiding a perceived conflict of interest. I have no doubt that if I had showed at any of the shows I was secretary for that the judges would have done their own thing. But as someone said to me early on, even if it's honest, you do not want to win a BIS at a show where you were the Secretary because the damage it will do to your reputation and the club's reputation will be significant.

Re breed clubs, I think a lot can be fixed by making the appointments super transparent. So if the entire club membership votes each year on the nominations, I see no issue with anyone showing. I think the Club has to make an effort to cover the range of "styles" tho', if the club only ever appoints one style of judge then you also have an issue.

Edited for spelling.

Edited June 17, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[weisnjac]

I show at our clubs shows (All Breeds), so do other Committee members. The Secretary doesn't show as she has contact with the judges, but all our committee does is attend meetings, organise things and set up rings. We have no contact with the judges so I don't see why we should miss out.

We are a country club, and there is only one other club in the area, so only two weekends where we don't have to travel 1hr + to a show. I don't see a problem with this.

[Eridor]

Ok from the point of view of a small club, if our committee didnt enter our one show per year we hold we wouldnt have much of an entry. Our show sec and president dont exhibit their own dogs nor has our show sec entered, for that matter the pres hasnt entered for the last 2 years but that is another kettle of fish.

I am secretary and treasurer for the club and I personally handled 1 or my 2 entered, being on the committee didnt do me any favors and the judge placed the dogs as she saw fit on the day.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

For those voting yes, would it bother you if the President or the Secretary of the club won BIS or RUBIS?

[puglvr]

I have just taken over the role of Secretary of our breed club. We have a nomination/voting system in place for judge selection. We always have an International Specialist and so from what I can gather nearly all the contact is via e-mail or letters. As far as I'm concerned the judge has no idea who I am until after the show.. They are picked up by someone on the committe who is not showing. I do not have a website or anything so they cannot see who I am even if they wanted to. Part of my decision to take over as sec. was that it wouldn't stop me from entering our show which I think are more important than All breeds show. If I couldn't i don't think I would do it.

Those people who know me know that I step in the ring with my integrity intact, and those who care to say different, well their opinion doesn't count.

[SpikesPuppy]

At our specialty last weekend, our secretary/treasurer, President & Vice President and myself (committee member) all showed. Our secretary was also our show secretary. We are a small club and our breed relatively small in numbers, there are only 2 specialty shows in the country. If committee did not show, the entry for our show would probably have been half of what it was, probably even less!!! A show would then not be viable, nor would these exhibitors have the chance to show at a breed specialty (without the expense of travelling to the ACT).

Personally, I don't really care. Dog shows are full of face-judging and paybacks alongside the honest judges who look at the dog and not who's on the end of the lead!!! There will always be exhibitors who beloved the judging has been unjust regardless of who is or isn't on the committee.

I guess at the end of it all- if you cannot trust that the judge will not judge the dog but the handler, or will be subject to other information about dogs or exhibitors etc then DONT ENTER!!!!!

All breeds shows, or clubs who may have more than one show a year or a often rotating committee (our committee for eg has largely been unchanged for several years!!), then it's all good and well for them not to exhibit but I am against any official ruling or anything like that.

[Dogsfevr]

i have no issues & the biggest whingers are those who dont offer there services to be on committee's.

Without these volunteers we would have no shows & given how apparently committee members supposedly always win i would think people would be knocking at the door to offer there time but generally not,they prefer to bitch instead.

It is great for those clubs that have a dont handle rule BUT i dont see why they should be penalized.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

the biggest whingers are those who dont offer there services to be on committee's.

Without these volunteers we would have no shows & given how apparently committee members supposedly always win i would think people would be knocking at the door to offer there time but generally not,they prefer to bitch instead.

I agree with this, for some people there is always some other excuse for why they didn't win.

I think probably the poll should be split into All Breeds, Group Clubs and Breed Clubs. My suspicion is that you'd get more people saying All Breeds committees shouldn't show and less people saying Breed Club committee shouldn't show (providing the judge selection process is transparent).

Edited to fix quoting

Edited June 17, 2010 by SkySoaringMagpie

[WreckitWhippet]

It's fine with me. We already strruggle in the country areas to get enough people willing to be on committees, why should they miss out on what is normally their home show.

Many don't handle themselves as they are too busy on the day, but they enter the dogs and find a handler. I have no issues with that.

[Libertybrook]

Having quite a number of small shows out our way, committee members often enter their dogs in the show

to boost numbers,

this probably wouldnt be of as much of a concern in the much larger city shows,

they dont always actually show, or they get someone else to show their dogs in the ring,

I have entered retired dogs that are not shown in our local shows to boost numbers, every little bit helps,

plus also here we have people whom help out and are on the committee at a number of different shows 100's of km's apart,

because we have a much smaller amount of people whom are able to or are willing to put their hand up and help out.

you will find that it is the same people, on committees and being show Reps, card writing and generally lending a hand

week in week out, and if we didnt show, at our "local' shows because we were helping out we would never get to show !!

:D

[oakway]

It really depends on where you live and show.

If you are on the committee of major metropolitan shows then NO.

It does not look good when the committee win groups and in show awards.

If you are in an area where only a handful of people show compared to other regions, you may

find that if the committee didn't show and support the entries you may not have a show.

[brightonrock]

Dog shows are full of face-judging and paybacks alongside the honest judges who look at the dog

Makes winning at shows a bit irrelevant doesn't it ?

[conztruct]

I have no problem with it and yes, if any of the club officials win Group, RUBIS or BIS, good on them.

In the event that a club official has done extremely well under a particular judge and it seems dodgy it's not their integrity that I'd question but the judge's. The judge is the one who is supposed to judging the dogs based on merit and it is their integrity and professionalism that should be called into question when the result looks dodgy.

The posters who have mentioned this avoids a perceived issue are correct but it really infuriates me that they feel they can't enter because of this perception - it also annoys me when people whinge about an official doing well and bag them out but say nothing about the judge - regardless of any pressure, influence, familiarity or otherwise it's the judge who should be making the objective decisions and ultimately they have the power over what what wins so blaming an official isn't fair.

In my experience (and it's quite amusing) it's usually the biggest whingers about this kind of thing who do particularly well when they are an official at their own local shows.........it's the pot calling the kettle black I think....LOL.

I love showing - I never do particularly well but I don't care - it's just fun for me.

[peaceful]

No at All Breeds Shows and Yes at Breed Club Shows.

There are enough All breeds shows week in and week out for the committee not to HAVE to show at their own club shows.

If Breed club show committees could not enter their own specialty shows most clubs would not get enough entries to justify running the show.

As long as judges are not chosen by the same committee members and are not met by them prior to the show there should be no problems.

Of course there are always those that are going to do the unethical but hopefully those are in the minority and they usually get found out somewhere down the track.

[Trisven13]

At our specialty last weekend, our secretary/treasurer, President & Vice President and myself (committee member) all showed. Our secretary was also our show secretary. We are a small club and our breed relatively small in numbers, there are only 2 specialty shows in the country. If committee did not show, the entry for our show would probably have been half of what it was, probably even less!!! A show would then not be viable, nor would these exhibitors have the chance to show at a breed specialty (without the expense of travelling to the ACT).

Personally, I don't really care. Dog shows are full of face-judging and paybacks alongside the honest judges who look at the dog and not who's on the end of the lead!!! There will always be exhibitors who beloved the judging has been unjust regardless of who is or isn't on the committee.

I guess at the end of it all- if you cannot trust that the judge will not judge the dog but the handler, or will be subject to other information about dogs or exhibitors etc then DONT ENTER!!!!!

All breeds shows, or clubs who may have more than one show a year or a often rotating committee (our committee for eg has largely been unchanged for several years!!), then it's all good and well for them not to exhibit but I am against any official ruling or anything like that.

Agree completely.

i have no issues & the biggest whingers are those who dont offer there services to be on committee's.

Without these volunteers we would have no shows & given how apparently committee members supposedly always win i would think people would be knocking at the door to offer there time but generally not,they prefer to bitch instead.

You'd think so wouldn't you.

There are enough All breeds shows week in and week out for the committee not to HAVE to show at their own club shows.

Not so many for country exhibitors unless they want to travel a couple of hours each weekend.

This is one of those things about dog showing that gets me. So many people whinge about the Judge only judging faces OR say that someone has only won because they're Secretary etc. If that is really the case what the hell are we doing showing? Unless we are a face or on a committee we're all screwed. I choose to believe that it is not that way. If I was proved wrong and it was shown that it happens in the majority of shows I would give up showing as a waste of time and simply concentrate on improving my breed.

[Faolmor]

I'm a club secretary, and I always show my dogs at our club shows. Last show, I won a class in show, and I would be pretty damn horrified to think I'd won it because I was on the committee. (Mind you, I was pretty horrified at some of the judging anyway, but that's another story )

I think it's all very well to take the moral high ground and say no, committee members shouldn't be able to show their dogs - and in principle, I agree. Frankly, I don't think it does the club any good, at times, to have members see the committee getting wins, whether or not the judge genuinely likes their dogs. I can say from personal experience that I have known none of the judges we have picked for our shows. They are just names on a page to me. Other committee members have been around longer, and suggest judges based on their own reasons. We actually had a discussion about that very issue at our meeting the other night. I think conflict of interests should be declared in every instance, and if one exists, then it should be up to the committee member concerned to make the decision as to whether or not they show their dogs. Picking judges just for a win is despicable, no matter who does it.

However, as others here have said, the show community in Australia is very small, and in some states (like mine) if committee members didn't show their dogs, the entry would be VERY low and thus the show would not be cost-effective. Cost-effectiveness is a reality for all committees, and clubs would fall very quickly if shows weren't making money.

Committee members pay full price for the judge's opinion just like everyone else. We're there hours before everyone else to set up, we work all day AND have to get the dogs ready, and we're still there after everyone leaves. We spend months planning our shows, trying to please members and put on a nice day...and almost always, someone will have a whinge about something. And as Showdog said, 99% of the whingers are those who have never lifted a finger to help. At this same last show, I spent much of my day alone, running the show office with a baby on my knee. Not easy, and not fun for me!! And yet that's what it takes to get the job done on the day, so you do it and you smile at the whingers and you apologise for all those things you did to try to make their day enjoyable...

Take our up-coming trophy show. The number of phonecalls I have had (before the show has even been advertised), whinging about where we're holding it, what if it rains, I hate that judge, blah blah blah... FFS. Either show, or don't show. But don't whinge in my ear at 9.30pm telling me how hard done by you are ON THE OFF-CHANCE it will rain and your dog might get its tootsies wet. Gah! People must think we deliberately try to make life hard for them and only them. Of course, the world does revolve around some people

Hmm...that turned into a bit of a rant. There is a point in there somewhere. See if you can spot it, kids!

[Rebanne]

well I wasn't going to say anything quite this early, but it looks like I will be show secretary for our local club next year and I fully intend to enter my dogs, whether I actually get to show them myself or get someone else too, way too early to say yet. But I am not missing out on a local show just because some perceive a possible bias on the judges part. I think it is pretty sad that so many people seem to think judges are so easily influenced.

[poodlefan]

Seems like a rough deal to me when the folk who do all the hard work get penalised by not being able to exhibit when other locals who do nothing can do so.

I understand that there may be perceptions of bias but I still think its a raw deal. Its not so bad here where there are plenty of shows to enter but in more remote places, I'd have thought it would be a significant disincentive to joining a show/club committee.

Edited June 18, 2010 by poodlefan

[SpikesPuppy]

Dog shows are full of face-judging and paybacks alongside the honest judges who look at the dog

Makes winning at shows a bit irrelevant doesn't it ?

In so very cynical

I know the dodgy judges are less common so I probably should have worded it the other way around lol.

Overall I enjoy showing and have done well so I know it's possible but there are times when the decision is suspicious (such as a lame dog going up for group!!).

When you are paying for another human beings opinion, you're taking a risk. There ate no clear rules about showing, as opposed to say obedience or agility), and like I aid, I believe committee showing or not is the least of my worries!!!