Inspiring Confidence

[RubyStar]

I have to try and remember not to be so negative around others because I know it's a downer on those you train with. Noone wants to train with the negative sourpuss

if it's any consolation rs, i have never particularly noticed you being negative on DOL .

Don't try for others..try for yourself

I like to report my positives on DOL. When I've gotten something right and have had fun doing it, I feel like telling the entire DOL family! Even when it's something simple, like my small success with agility last night, I am sure those more advanced can appreciate we all started somewhere and to those "newbies" it is an accomplishment!

Any negatives I report on DOL, is usually to ask for help. But I'm female, I'm also entitled to the odd whinge with no point every now and then

And yes, I do have to try for myself in "real life". Training the dogs has actually improved my outlook on many things, that's a big plus

[Vickie]

I think it is important to note that there is a difference between being generally negative and between being constructively realistic.

I know i have areas of handling that need to improve. And I know that there are many areas where I need to train my dogs better.

Rather than "I am a crap handler, with badly trained dogs", I can say "I need to stop babysitting weave poles and spend more time proofing my dogs completing them with me at various speeds in various positions". The first statement seems insurmountable to fix, the second is achievable with advice, time and dedication.

it is rare for anyone to be brilliant when they first start training anything. I think the issue is our personal expectations of ourselves. some of us are happy to gradually improve and end up competant. Others of us want it all to happen as quickly as possible and aim for the ultimate performance. The second group seem to be the ones with most negativity since they are on a much steeper curve.

i find any negativity i have comes not from things I am trying and failing, but from things I know I need to work on, but have not motivated myself sufficiently to actually do them.

[ness]

you guys are all way to honest - I thought about posting something in here because I know I have been bad for negativity in the past but I am trying to change that now . I know I am more negative over my dog training when other things in my life are having an influence. As for how to change it I think it was the combination of negative and positive that made me flick the switch. It took having a very bad session on video and seeing what difference it made when my attitude wasn't negative to how the dog responded and then having a run of brilliant sessions - the only difference was my approach.

When I was feeling overly negative my handling went to bits and its a session I now want to disown totally .

Edited June 18, 2010 by ness

[Vickie]

another point. I also know people who are too positive.

These people are so busy looking for a positive in each performance that they never stop to identify weaknesses and therefore can never recognise that they need to make changes in training or handling. Almost like being in denial.

i made a deal with myself a while ago. I decided I was not allowed to check our course time unless we ran the course clear. I went through a stage where we were having pretty good runs but rarely clear. I was consoling myself with the fact that often we would have won or placed if we had not made a mistake. I see lots of people with fast dogs still doing this. Problem is you are so busy feeling good about the possibility that you never stop to analyse what went wrong & how to fix it.

I think this scenario can be equally damaging, maybe more b/c although you are outwardly positive, you have a growing negativity inside that you are failing to recognise.

talk about waffle!

[pipsqueak]

How do you deal with students/training partners/friends that (in training)

a.) constantly put themselves down

b.) constantly put their dogs down

or c.) both

Why do you think they do it & how do you help them get over it?

The people thing I think is often related to either genuine low self esteem or a form of attention seeking.

The dog thing I just don't get at all.

I know a few people who do both. Every now & then they forget themselves & forget that "they have a crap dog" and things go brilliantly. i just wish I could video those moments to show them how it could be all the time...if they just modified their attitude.

I tend to put myself down, and yes sometimes the dog as well, but I think it is because I've had so many instructors make me feel like I don't know anything. I am by no means an experienced trainer, but I believe that having lived with my dogs that I can probably read them better than an instructor who sees them maybe once a week. I've had a very experienced instructor tell me that my first dog was scared/nervous of the situation because she happened to carry her ears back. I know from long experience with her that she is extremely lazy, so will listen to you with her ear back when heeling instead of looking at you.

I've also had trainers discard my opinion and insist that "that dog MUST be on a check chain/halti/whatever" without considering what I as the owner and trainer might be comfortable with. For these particular dogs in question, I had researched check chains/haltis/etc and had made a decision on what *I* wanted to use at that point in time. Then, I was abused by another instruction when I did make the decision to put one of my dogs on a check chain (which was used short term as a tool and he is now on a flat collar) - said that the dog didn't need to be on a check chain and I needed to learn how to manage and relate to him... pretty hard when I couldn't get any type of control in class - I was getting frustrated and dog wasn't learning anything. It also pretty much shatters your confidence to be constantly told that you are wrong and don't know anything. I am happy for instructors to *suggest* tools which might be effective, but allow me to make the final decision. I have the utmost respect for one of my first instructors when I turned up with my big, bouncy sighthound on a martingale - he said "you might want to consider putting her on a check chain at some stage, but let's see how she goes with what you've got" - didn't try to railroad me into anything, happy to work with what was my preference at the time (he did not know that at that stage I was extremely anti-check chains). Same dog is still on a martingale for safety because of her small head compared to her neck, but I also know that she will quite happily work on a flat collar in a safe area.

Sounds like I'm a smart-ass, know-it-all, doesn't it. I really am not - I am more than happy learn and take on board someone else's opinions, as long as they respect mine as well. I think that it is that a lot of instructors (not all) assume that they know everything, or at least more than their students - which isn't always the case.

[corvus]

Haha, I hear you futuredogtrainer. I always go into training classes with the best intentions. I keep my head down, I do what I'm told, I pretend I don't know much and try to be a good student. I'll compromise on signals so I'm doing the same thing as everyone else even though it means my dog has to learn a new signal, and I'll ask the instructor before I do anything differently. Inevitably, at some point I draw a line and say I don't want to do that with my dog and I'll give a detailed explanation why and what I would like to do instead and I get a "troublemaker" stamp on my forehead and that's the end of that. They take it as a challenge, and it's not at all. I'm not challenging their methods, their knowledge, or their experience. I'm just saying there's more than one way to do this and I'd rather do it my way because I know my dog and I'm more comfortable with this method. I now travel almost an hour to go to a dog training club where I am very comfortable with the methods, approaches and tools used. I am still scared of the instructors, though. Once bitten twice shy. I ask lots of questions. I need to know exactly what the end product should be to be comfortable practising an exercise. With agility I find I struggle most just trying to understand what this foundation behaviour is supposed to be teaching and where it will be applied in the bigger picture. I can't just follow orders. I really need to know where I'm going with them, and that is the case no matter what I'm doing in life. Most people don't seem to need to know. They just train the foundation behaviours and build on them and retrospectively go "Oh, I see how that was a good idea". But if I don't know where I'm heading I lack confidence and direction and then my dog goes the same way.

[Vickie]

Sounds like I'm a smart-ass, know-it-all, doesn't it. I really am not - I am more than happy learn and take on board someone else's opinions, as long as they respect mine as well. I think that it is that a lot of instructors (not all) assume that they know everything, or at least more than their students - which isn't always the case.

you don't sound like a know-it-all at all. There is nothing worse than feeling pressured to do something with your dog that you are uncomfortable with.

Feeling you have no choice but to do what they ask can affect your confidence greatly. I am happy to listen to what anyone has to say, but try really hard to only take lessons/instruction from handlers I aspire to. If I feel (based on experience, rather than theory) that I would prefer to do it my way rather than theirs I will have a word with them privately so as not to undervalue them in front of other students or discreetly sit that section out.

Edited June 18, 2010 by Vickie

[Vickie]

I keep my head down, I do what I'm told, I pretend I don't know much and try to be a good student.

why would you pretend you don't know much? are you afraid of intimidating the instructor?

Inevitably, at some point I draw a line and say I don't want to do that with my dog and I'll give a detailed explanation why and what I would like to do instead and I get a "troublemaker" stamp on my forehead and that's the end of that. They take it as a challenge, and it's not at all. I'm not challenging their methods, their knowledge, or their experience. I'm just saying there's more than one way to do this and I'd rather do it my way because I know my dog and

I'm more comfortable with this method.

I ask lots of questions. I need to know exactly what the end product should be to be comfortable practising an exercise.

Depending on the class situation, is it possible that you are labelled 'troublemaker' b/c you are taking a lot of other people's time in this process?

With agility I find I struggle most just trying to understand what this foundation behaviour is supposed to be teaching and where it will be applied in the bigger picture. I can't just follow orders. I really need to know where I'm going with them, and that is the case no matter what I'm doing in life. Most people don't seem to need to know. They just train the foundation behaviours and build on them and retrospectively go "Oh, I see how that was a good idea". But if I don't know where I'm heading I lack confidence and direction and then my dog goes the same way.

again, sounds very time consuming in a class situation. It might be worth doing some research on agility foundation so you are more prepared. most instructors will give a basic application for foundations. If you need more detail, there is plenty on the internet ... hell there is plenty right here on DOL

Edited June 18, 2010 by Vickie

[Kavik]

Haha, I hear you futuredogtrainer. I always go into training classes with the best intentions. I keep my head down, I do what I'm told, I pretend I don't know much and try to be a good student. I'll compromise on signals so I'm doing the same thing as everyone else even though it means my dog has to learn a new signal, and I'll ask the instructor before I do anything differently. Inevitably, at some point I draw a line and say I don't want to do that with my dog and I'll give a detailed explanation why and what I would like to do instead and I get a "troublemaker" stamp on my forehead and that's the end of that. They take it as a challenge, and it's not at all. I'm not challenging their methods, their knowledge, or their experience. I'm just saying there's more than one way to do this and I'd rather do it my way because I know my dog and I'm more comfortable with this method. I now travel almost an hour to go to a dog training club where I am very comfortable with the methods, approaches and tools used. I am still scared of the instructors, though. Once bitten twice shy. I ask lots of questions. I need to know exactly what the end product should be to be comfortable practising an exercise. With agility I find I struggle most just trying to understand what this foundation behaviour is supposed to be teaching and where it will be applied in the bigger picture. I can't just follow orders. I really need to know where I'm going with them, and that is the case no matter what I'm doing in life. Most people don't seem to need to know. They just train the foundation behaviours and build on them and retrospectively go "Oh, I see how that was a good idea". But if I don't know where I'm heading I lack confidence and direction and then my dog goes the same way.

I would not change signals just for the instructor! I went to one obedience club that tried to tell me I was doing signals wrong, which I thought was odd because 1) all the other clubs I had been to did it the way I did and 2) even for competition it doesn't matter, as long as you are consistent you can use what you like! They told me I had the wrong type of lead, held it in the wrong hand, gave signals with the wrong hand etc. I didn't end up staying as they just would not understand that I had been taught to do it differently and would not change for them, and that there is no wrong or right with these things.

I am currently teaching a foundation agility/basic agility class (not all the foundation I would like, but a start, we don't have all the foundation equipment yet at work). I am struggling with how much information to tell students about how some foundation behaviours are applied and useful later on without boring them or confusing them with too much detail and information that they don't understand.

[corvus]

Yeah, I understand that not everyone needs to know where they are going to be able to do something. Most people in my class seem to cope fine just knowing the first step. I'm the oddball that thinks differently and needs to picture where the stairs are going and what each step looks like. It's my responsibility to get for myself the information I need to be confident in what I'm doing, but I'm not the only person in class and so I ask most of my questions by email.

I would also quite happily just say "I don't want to do that, do you mind if I did this instead" and the trainer has the option of saying "go ahead" if they want to keep the class moving. It's kinda rude to put them on the spot, though, so that's why I make compromises. That and IME they take it personally if I want to do something differently. I get that they care a lot about me ending up with a dog that doesn't do what I want it to do and they don't know whether I'm going to blame them or blame the dog and have it rehomed or worse. But would it kill them to say "If you don't want to you don't have to but talk to me after class" for example? I would happily sit it out if that's what it took to gain flexibility on things I deem important. I hate it when I want to do something differently. It means I'll have to talk to the trainer about it and that always comes back to bite me no matter how well I think it went at the time.

I have researched, which is how I ended up at the club I'm at, but I can't assume that where I think we're heading is where we are heading without having that confirmed. I learnt that in the first week.

[Tassie]

Great topic, Vickie.

Hey Amerykus - you said ....

Ive fumbled my way to get my dog into masters agility , but I , myself, NOW lack the ability to handle a Masters course, which is sad as i LOVE agility

Been there, done that, got the T shirt - and you know what - if you can find some good mentors, you will learn to be able to handle masters courses (well, most of them ;) ), and as long as you're still having fun with your dog, you will get better all the time. Poodlefan can tell you what a clumsy handler I can be - well, Vickie can tell you as well - but I'm still improving - and I'm a senior handler - you can teach old dogs new tricks - but we collect a few Qs and occasionally we have a gun run. And then of course there are the days when I leave out a loop of a course - but luckily, Kirra doesn't usually know that.

Poodlefan said

* Dogs don't care how good a trainer/handler you are provided you don't frustrate the pants off them or abuse them. Most dogs want to be with their handlers and please them. How well the team performs tends to matter more to the handler than the dog. If the dog has a good time, that's enough for them.

That is sooooo true. Kirra's lovely breeder said that to me years ago when I was apologising to her for not being able to do justice to the lovely dog she had placed with me - her take was that Kirra didn't care about cards or titles - she just wanted to have fun doing stuff with me. It's a great thing to keep in mind.

[poodlefan]

Been there, done that, got the T shirt - and you know what - if you can find some good mentors, you will learn to be able to handle masters courses (well, most of them ;) ), and as long as you're still having fun with your dog, you will get better all the time. Poodlefan can tell you what a clumsy handler I can be - well, Vickie can tell you as well - but I'm still improving - and I'm a senior handler - you can teach old dogs new tricks - but we collect a few Qs and occasionally we have a gun run. And then of course there are the days when I leave out a loop of a course - but luckily, Kirra doesn't usually know that.

I've also seen you make a quantum leap in ability in the space of a two day seminar Barb. Sometimes all you need to do such leaps is the right instruction from the right person who can demystify things for you.

Same goes for course walking. It's an art. It can be learned and then practiced to see great improvements in both handling strategy and execution.

[Kavik]

I'm still learning the art of course walking! So much more to learn

[RubyStar]

I've started walking courses at any trial I might be watching, even though I'm not running a dog in agility yet I figure it can't hurt, I might pick up an idea or two on how to run something similar I come across in the future!

[kelpiechick]

Tag Teach might be a good proxy for dog trainers.

;) for TAG teaching !

Especially if you make sure that students know what your specific tag points are before beginning any exercise.

I think that just like dogs, people are more confident if they know that the exercise has many parts to it and that they can at least experience success with one part of it if they can't get it all right straight away. (eg: when learning a front cross a student's footwork might be all over the place and their timing is off, but they kept their eye on their dog /or imaginary dog the whole way through the turn. There's something you can tag that is positive and so can give a confidence boost in what the student may be thinking of as an 'unsuccessful' exercise.) We break things down into really small manageable parts for our dogs but often don't do it enough for ourselves and expect success a lot faster than it often happens.

I know I need to reminded of this and I think everyone else does too on occasions.

[Sayreovi]

Sounds like I'm a smart-ass, know-it-all, doesn't it. I really am not - I am more than happy learn and take on board someone else's opinions, as long as they respect mine as well. I think that it is that a lot of instructors (not all) assume that they know everything, or at least more than their students - which isn't always the case.

I agree. Instructors may know more about dog training than the average person but I know more about training MY dog than they do, so when I say it won't work, it really won't work. I awlays have a giggle when they take my youngest to demonstrate with, after I tell them not to bother of course, and he just ignores them.

I changed clubs because my dogs and I weren't having fun with what we were doing, we were basically being made to do a certain task which I hated doing, I knew my dog hated doing it and I feared for his safety. They knew all this and still kept at it, so I was pissed off and left. The new club I am with is 100% happy with what I want to do, I explained everything before I joined and pretty much asked if there was any point in joining. They acknowledged that I knew my dogs capabilities in doing this sport as we had been doing it for years, so I am now with a new club.

I lost alot of confidence in one of my dogs (and him in me) at the first club, because I never really knew if he would do it or not and of course he picked up on my unease which made it worse. Though I never blamed him but myself for staying. We are making progress now but I would never do that too myself or my dogs again.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

The dog thing I just don't get at all.

Often what is going on there is "signaling" to other humans that you see that the behaviour from the dog isn't the desired behaviour. It's very closely related to the handler putting themselves down, it's about "getting in first" before anyone else has a chance to criticise. You see it on walks in public spaces where someone yells at their dog for showing on leash aggression. Yelling isn't going to help the on leash aggression, but it does signal to the world "hey, I see it, I'm dealing with it, don't give me grief about it".

This is something I struggle with. I love my dogs because they are the best dogs in the world. But in public I will sometimes call them things like "baggage" or "idiot" because they've done something "difficult". If you asked me what I'm aiming for instead, I'd say something I read in a book about showing once, which is that if you treat your dog with disrespect you're encouraging others (including judges) to think the same, and therefore you should always show a little dignity. But early hard wiring is hard to overcome and I know I do it when stressed and unthinking.

OTOH there will be other people who consider "idiot" an affectionate word, we are Australians after all . With my girls particularly if I'm calling them baggage, sometimes i'm doing it because they have outdone me in the sighthound mind game stakes and there is more than a little respect mixed in.

This stuff is rarely straightforward, but mindfulness goes a long way.

[Amerykus]

I've started walking courses at any trial I might be watching, even though I'm not running a dog in agility yet I figure it can't hurt, I might pick up an idea or two on how to run something similar I come across in the future!

OH MY GOSH!! I use to do this too! ( until i got told that i wasnt allowed to walk the course if I didnt have a dog entered in the class! OOPS )

I also love to watch how other people walk a course and SEE what they do, and how differently they do things to me, of course i have alot of

" DUH so THATS how your ment to do that! " moments LOL

[RubyStar]

I've started walking courses at any trial I might be watching, even though I'm not running a dog in agility yet I figure it can't hurt, I might pick up an idea or two on how to run something similar I come across in the future!

OH MY GOSH!! I use to do this too! ( until i got told that i wasnt allowed to walk the course if I didnt have a dog entered in the class! OOPS )

I also love to watch how other people walk a course and SEE what they do, and how differently they do things to me, of course i have alot of

" DUH so THATS how your ment to do that! " moments LOL

I haven't been told off yet Mind you, I am only walking the Novice courses at this point in time, I won't get in anyone's way walking the course on something more difficult (though I did quickly walk an Open Agility course I helped set up when I was stewarding before the competitors came in). I would think that they should encourage those getting into the sport to walk the Novice courses, it's good preparation for your trialling career!

I also like asking others how they would approach it after I've worked out a rough plan myself. That way I firstly have to strategise for myself, then getting other people's take on it I can see where I am overcomplicating things and make it simpler!

[Tassie]

Been there, done that, got the T shirt - and you know what - if you can find some good mentors, you will learn to be able to handle masters courses (well, most of them ), and as long as you're still having fun with your dog, you will get better all the time. Poodlefan can tell you what a clumsy handler I can be - well, Vickie can tell you as well - but I'm still improving - and I'm a senior handler - you can teach old dogs new tricks - but we collect a few Qs and occasionally we have a gun run. And then of course there are the days when I leave out a loop of a course - but luckily, Kirra doesn't usually know that.

I've also seen you make a quantum leap in ability in the space of a two day seminar Barb. Sometimes all you need to do such leaps is the right instruction from the right person who can demystify things for you.

Same goes for course walking. It's an art. It can be learned and then practiced to see great improvements in both handling strategy and execution.

Thanks poodlefan - that JW seminar is still burnt into my brain

Agree about the course walking being an art to be learned and practised. Personally I've found trying to adopt one consistent handling system has helped - particularly in considering the dog's ideal line, and then thinking about the possible handling. There are some articles on planning in CR at the moment - 3 different handlers looking at the same course.

As far as walking courses you're not entered in - I believe you're supposed to ask the judge's permission - most have no problem with it. And obviously you have to be aware of giving priority to those actually competing in the class. Personally I'd sugggest not walking courses too far above your present level - it can be a bit too confusing and over-facing.