Enough Is Enough

[Nushie]

Hi guys,

So, we have had Jager for 4 weeks now he is 12 weeks now and he still cries when i leave him in the morning. I would have though he would have grown out of it. Am i doing something wrong? Am i forgetting something? So far we havent had any complaints (touch wood) but seeing as i get ready for work at 6.30am and leave at 7am i think it will only be a matter of time before we do.

Morning routine involves getting up at 6am and playing with him, doing a little training and generally spending time with him, vet said to give the vaccine a week to be effective, and then i will start taking him for a short walk with some training in the morning. Hopefully to tire out his brain a bit.

He gets his breakfast, a stuffed frozen knog and some toys to chew on (rotate them so that he doesnt get bored with them), i put a hot water bottle in his bed and then i have to start getting ready for work. His pen is in the lounge room and he can see out onto the balcony and into the trees (cant see cars or people on the street). Once i start getting ready he cant see me as our bedroom is downstairs and the lounge room upstairs. I have tried, putting him in there and not then not letting him see me again before i leave. I have tried to go outstairs and get stuff from the kitchen so that he can see me, but i dont look at him or talk to him. I have tried yelling at him from downstairs (by yelling i mean giving a firm No or Ugh Ugh - which he usually responds well to for other things like chewing or biting but not for this).

I leave the tv on for him so that there are voices and sounds. I have tried leaving an old shirt that we have worn in his bed. I bought a snugglepuppie (with heatpack and heartbeat) well the heartbeat lasted all of a day and with 2 watch batteries in it i cant keep replacing them.

We put him in his pen during the times we are home as well. As long as we are in the room he is fine for a short period and then starts crying after about 5-10minutes.

I know he is still young but i would have thought that there would have been some kind of improvement by now to show that there is a light at the end of the rainbow.

I know it is something that i am doing / not doing that is kindering his improvement but i cant for the life of me see what it is. Can someone please tell me what i am i doing wrong?

It makes me feel like such a horrible mum when i hear him cry.

[mrs tornsocks]

How long after he can't see you does he start crying ? Is it 5-10 minutes like when you're there ?

Have you given him 'practice' at being alone - while you're there ?

Give him short amounts of time alone, come back to him and praise him when he doesn't cry. You might need to start at one minute, build to two, then 5, 10 etc.

Does he stay in the pen all day ? And how long are you gone for ? Where does he toilet ? Is outside an option ?

Don't worry, he will grow out of it.

[Nevafollo]

Is he in the pen all day? How pig is the pen? if its only a small pen he may be happier with some extra room could you extend it at all? Sounds like you are doing quite abit of work to fix it I cant think of much else to suggest!

[MolassesLass]

Don't worry, he will grow out of it.

Most of the time this is true but there are dogs who will need a lot of effort to have them "grow out of it".

What do you do when he cries when you are home? Do you give him attention by talking to him (even a reprimand), go over to him or have ever let him out while he was noisy? These are things that will teach Jager to whinge to get what he wants. What time limit did you start with for training to be alone? Do you praise/reward randomly when quiet and for now, always when let out (only let out when quiet)?

Look for articles on crate training as this is a very similar process. I have found a couple to start with:

Crate Training Article 1

Leaving Your New Puppy Alone

I've not found TV/radio, tshirts or those things a help with my dogs - they're interested in being with me not my smell or any old sounds. The process of starting out with small periods of time in the pen/crate with me in view, releasing pup from pen when quiet with lots of praise (maybe a food reward) and gradually building up is what has worked for me. This has meant putting pup in the pen/crate up to 3 times in an hour at first (where they only stay in for about 30 seconds).

[Nushie]

Don't worry, he will grow out of it.

Most of the time this is true but there are dogs who will need a lot of effort to have them "grow out of it".

What do you do when he cries when you are home? Do you give him attention by talking to him (even a reprimand), go over to him or have ever let him out while he was noisy? These are things that will teach Jager to whinge to get what he wants. What time limit did you start with for training to be alone? Do you praise/reward randomly when quiet and for now, always when let out (only let out when quiet)?

When we are home and he cries we usually just ignore him. Which doesnt seem to work. I ignored him for nearly an hour on the weekend cause he kept crying. We started with 1-2 minuites with me in the room (about 3m from his pen) he didnt cry so i let him out, praised him and we played together for a bit. Watched a bit of a movie and then put him back in (he was out for about 30minutes). We did this a couple of times. And the problem starts, after we do this a few times. He doesnt even get to the 2 minutes and starts crying straight away. So i ignore him, he cries more and it ended up being about 50 minutes before he was quiet. And then i feel like i am making it worse cause we arent building up the time he spends in there.

In the afternoon when i get home from work he starts crying when he hears the door. He cant see me as i am downstairs and he is upstairs (weird apartment set up) so i get changed and ignore his crying, only once he is quiet for a short period (usually a minute) do i go upstairs. It takes about 15-25minutes for him to be quiet for a minute.

We have made it a point to not let him out when he is noisey. He is only let out when quiet (although we only wait a minute otherwise we would be there all night) and he also has to sit and wait calmly for us to let him out. But it is just such a task to get him to be quiet in the first place.

I have also tried praising him when he is quiet and plays with a toy or something while in there, but that just distracts him from the toy and then he starts crying.

[Aziah]

Have you tried something like a Smacko's Chomp N Chew when you leave - they last for ages and it could very deter his whining when you leave?

[MolassesLass]

You're certainly doing all the right things Patience is probably all you need (i.e. more than pup has for trying to get his own way ). Some pups will take longer than others.

You can try to break the whine by making a short sharp noise (not a verbal noise so he knows it's you - more like a hand clap) but I would speak with Jager's breeder before doing this. Some breeds and some pups are too soft in nature for this type of thing. Also try to play with him but then stop the game and have some quiet time before putting in the pen, so he doesn't go in all hyped up and still wanting to play.

I have also tried praising him when he is quiet and plays with a toy or something while in there, but that just distracts him from the toy and then he starts crying.

Make sure you are very low-key with this type of praise. Just a soft "gooooooooood" and drop a treat in (don't directly give it), so you hardly have contact at all.

Edited June 17, 2010 by molasseslass

[Nushie]

Out of interest.

When we were at my mums over the weekend, we went out for dinner and had to put Jager in the laundry. Obviously he cried, but being sick and frustrated i told him No firmly through the door when he started up. He would be quiet for a time and then cry - i would tell him No again and eventually he was quiet for the remaining 10 minutes while we got ready to leave. So he understands 'No' but i would have thought being in strange place he would have cried more and yet telling him 'No' 3 or 4 times worked.

He cried once we got home (which i expected) and again 2 or 3 firm 'No's worked and he was quiet for a couple of minutes so we let him out. He had all the same things in with him that he has in his pen at home.

I have always been told to ignore them and that even telling them off gives them what they want. So why would it have worked? Just a coincidence?

I just dont know.

Also in the afternoons after i come home from work, when he is quiet for a miniute and i go upstairs if he starts crying or wimpering i turn and start walking away until he is quiet again. Then i stand there facing him for a moment and then start walking towards him again. Is that alright? Sometimes it doesnt work and i end up walking into another room and cause he cant see me he cries more. Its all a vicious circle

[Nushie]

Also try to play with him but then stop the game and have some quiet time before putting in the pen, so he doesn't go in all hyped up and still wanting to play.

We usually play and then we sit and watch some tv or i will start unpacking the dishwasher or something so that he isnt all hyped up. Haha i couldnt even imagine what he would be like if i put him in straight after running around

[mrs tornsocks]

Out of interest.

When we were at my mums over the weekend, we went out for dinner and had to put Jager in the laundry. Obviously he cried, but being sick and frustrated i told him No firmly through the door when he started up. He would be quiet for a time and then cry - i would tell him No again and eventually he was quiet for the remaining 10 minutes while we got ready to leave. So he understands 'No' but i would have thought being in strange place he would have cried more and yet telling him 'No' 3 or 4 times worked.

He cried once we got home (which i expected) and again 2 or 3 firm 'No's worked and he was quiet for a couple of minutes so we let him out. He had all the same things in with him that he has in his pen at home.

I have always been told to ignore them and that even telling them off gives them what they want. So why would it have worked? Just a coincidence?

I just dont know.

Also in the afternoons after i come home from work, when he is quiet for a miniute and i go upstairs if he starts crying or wimpering i turn and start walking away until he is quiet again. Then i stand there facing him for a moment and then start walking towards him again. Is that alright? Sometimes it doesnt work and i end up walking into another room and cause he cant see me he cries more. Its all a vicious circle

If the laundry seems to work better, is that an option for when you go to work ? Did you praise him heaps after the 10 mins of quiet ?

We left our boy in the laundry when he was little, then gradually built up his time outside alone. Popped him outside for a couple of minutes, open the door and praise or even treat when he was quiet. He's now 1 and has a kennel and plenty to do outside, but that's where he goes and it works just fine.

I am of the belief that constant praising of the behaviour you DO want is the best approach.

Can you spend some training time over the weekend with him in the laundry ? Again, trying the gradually building method. Close the door, wait a minute, if no whining, praise etc... and build up the time ?

What is your long term plan for where puppy stays when he gets bigger and you go out ?

And I might have missed, but what's his toilet options when you're at work ?

[Nushie]

Have you tried something like a Smacko's Chomp N Chew when you leave - they last for ages and it could very deter his whining when you leave?

Are these safe for a 12 week old to chew?

I have found that a lot of products that arent specially made for pups (even some that are) cant be given to pups under 4 or 6 months.

I actually bought him some Kong Puppy Ziggies which he LOVED!! But i got the small and they are too small for his Kong. Apparently they are designed to be jammed into the puppy kongs so they cant just sit there chewing on it. It takes a bit of effort to get them out. Maybe i should invest in some more (of the right size)?

[mrs tornsocks]

Have you tried something like a Smacko's Chomp N Chew when you leave - they last for ages and it could very deter his whining when you leave?

I wouldn't be leaving a 12 wko alone with something like this.

[Nushie]

If the laundry seems to work better, is that an option for when you go to work ? Did you praise him heaps after the 10 mins of quiet ?

We left our boy in the laundry when he was little, then gradually built up his time outside alone. Popped him outside for a couple of minutes, open the door and praise or even treat when he was quiet. He's now 1 and has a kennel and plenty to do outside, but that's where he goes and it works just fine.

I am of the belief that constant praising of the behaviour you DO want is the best approach.

Can you spend some training time over the weekend with him in the laundry ? Again, trying the gradually building method. Close the door, wait a minute, if no whining, praise etc... and build up the time ?

What is your long term plan for where puppy stays when he gets bigger and you go out ?

And I might have missed, but what's his toilet options when you're at work ?

Long term he will have the house. We live in a unit with a small courtyard (no grass - size wise probably 2.5m x 3 or 4m - just pavers and lattice fence nothing else) and a balcony. We are training him to use a pet loo (located in his pen) and eventually we will move that out to the balcony which he will have access to by a dog door. My boyfriend and i are very home based, by that i mean, if we arent at work we are at home.

[GoldenWei]

I had a similar problem with Willow not liking being confined to her crate, an old t-shirt didn't work, however a freshly worn one, and I mean one straight off my back seemed to settle her.

[Sandra777]

Perhaps not reading correctly, but you are waiting for him to be quiet for a minute before praising? If so, I would be making the target quiet period much shorter - even a few seconds if that works - and build up to a longer period. For an excited puppy a minute is a very long time

You can do the build up quite quickly, but if you have been waiting for a minute right from the start then he may not even really get what he's doing right or wrong.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Sandra777

[Nushie]

Okay so what if i do this:

Put him in the pen, praise straight away for being quiet. Wait for him to settle, take a step back and then forward again, praise for being quiet. Take 2 steps back and forward again, praise for being quiet. etc. keep taking steps back and forward until we get to the spare bedroom, then take a step sideways (so out of view) and back and back to him. Praise. etc. Will that help do you think? That way it starts as extremely short periods of time that he needs to be quiet?

If i do do this, what do you suggest i do if he starts to cry? Obviously steping towards him is out, just stand there? glaring off into the distance ignoring him? If so for how long then do i wait for him to be quiet before i take a step foward again?

I really just want to make it as easy as possible for him. Problem being that even doing this training on the weekend, come monday morning he will be alone in there for 5-6 hours again. Do you think that will affect the training?

[altheau]

None of these things may help but this is what helped out dog (adult dog btw)

I stopped her from following my endlessly, by shutting doors for a few seconds behind me and then opening them again. I would walk in and out of rooms shutting and opening doors so that she was cut off from me, just for a few seconds at first and then longer. I found this easier then walking in and out of my front door. of course if he is not stuck to you like glue, then it might not help

We shut her in the bathroom while out. We tried shutting her in the room for dinner etc but she never stopped crying. We found out through frustration that if we left she stopped. She will still cry if we are tarty leaving the house, but stops once she hears the car. We have been trying to work her up to having the whole house, but I think she has a hard time with the fact that sometimes when we go out the front door we take her with us, and sometimes not.

We prepare her morning meal (a bone or a kong) and give it to her as we are leaving. Basically we say right we are going, pick up her food, walk down to the bathroom but the food down shut the door , turn off the lights in the house, walk out the door, lock it and get into the car and drive away.

Yuki has moved from trying to squish herself into the floor, sqealing when picked up ( that was hard to handle, I felt so mean) and total resistance to going into the bathroom, to bolting full speed into the bathroom in the morning.

I know your littly is to young yet, but dog training got her from sometimes crying when we leave, to never crying when we leave so confidence can be a factor, you never know, when you can take him out the door a bit he might not be so worried about you when you go out the door alone, cause he knows outside is fun and safe and you will be ok.

[Nushie]

I stopped her from following my endlessly, by shutting doors for a few seconds behind me and then opening them again. I would walk in and out of rooms shutting and opening doors so that she was cut off from me, just for a few seconds at first and then longer. I found this easier then walking in and out of my front door. of course if he is not stuck to you like glue, then it might not help

Might give this a try as he does follow me everywhere (obviously not downstairs) and lately i have been going downstairs and packing the washing machine and leaving him upstairs. He usually doesnt make any noise. Just sits and wait quietly. But if i go to the bathroom and leave him out, then he cries at the door. Maybe just closing the door and then opening it will get him used to me not having to be in his site all the time.

Really appreciate all the comments people have been making.

[Aziah]

Have you tried something like a Smacko's Chomp N Chew when you leave - they last for ages and it could very deter his whining when you leave?

I wouldn't be leaving a 12 wko alone with something like this.

No? Ok, I've used them with success

[corvus]

Puppies are like babies. They cry because they are distressed. They can learn that crying doesn't ever alleviate their distress, but personally I don't bother when I can just deal with the distress at the source. It seems kind of mean to me to teach a baby that their natural way of communicating distress is useless. What are they meant to do then? Not that it is likely to have a long-term impact on them.

I distinguish between distress crying and "give me attention" crying. If they are crying in distress I don't let it go on for more than a few minutes. The rule of thumb in most books I've read is that if they haven't stopped in 20 minutes they aren't going to stop until they are exhausted and you should go and get them. I don't even wait that long. I might wait 10 minutes max, but mostly if they don't settle within a few minutes I don't let them get themselves all worked up and fretful by crying and crying.

The protocol for teaching him to accept you moving around is a great place to start IMO. Here's a copy of Karen Overall's protocol on this, which is really good if you want some easy directions to follow. http://home.gci.net/~divs/behavior/bemod_depart.html

A problem that can arise in puppies that grow up indoors with little exposure to outside is that they can end up with a narrow idea of what is comfortable and secure. If you happen to be the biggest and most interesting thing in their life, it's easy for them to end up depending on your presence to feel like everything is normal and safe. If I were you, I'd give him things he likes while you're around to associate with you when you're not around. So get him chewing on the Kongs while you are at home with him. Think about giving him a toy or blanket that only comes out when you're around for a while so that he can later associate it with everything being cool in his world. This is why sometimes leaving a radio or the television on can help. They associate the noise with you being home and so it's less stressful to them when you're not at home.