Sick Of Big Dogs Stalking My Swf What Can I Do?

[casowner]

It is quite amusing Poodlefan just how people react to him. Last night I was laying on the lounge with a half grown kangaroo by my side, Jake was laying below us on the carpet, Shannon sitting next to him guarding her treat and Snickers the cat sleeping on the back of the chair it was so peaceful that when I looked around the room I had little tears in my eyes.

When I used to take Shannon walking by herself she would always get confronted by off lead dogs that the owners would ignore so now I have a fearful small dog that through no fault of my own that I don't take out by herself as she becomes too stressed. I am a firm believer in giving people personal space and if you don't want me hovering over you then keep your dog out of mine and my animals safety zone. I avoid off lead areas like the plague as there are too many uncontrollable variables normally perpetuated by others self belief that they have full control over their off lead animals.

[poodlefan]

I avoid off lead areas like the plague as there are too many uncontrollable variables normally perpetuated by others self belief that they have full control over their off lead animals.

You have a kinder view of irresponsible dog park users that I do. In my experience, those with out of control dogs that aren't adversely affected by others don't tend to give a damn what their dogs do.

If your dog is rushed, squashed or bailed up you get a shrug, a roll of eyes if you react or you are told to harden up and deal with it. Issues of size or age inequality rarely seem to rate a thought.

Edited June 17, 2010 by poodlefan

[casowner]

I don't think my view is kinder, but my real thoughts on those people would warrant a warning from Troy

Any uncontrolled dog is a risk regardless of size and it is about time that irresponsible owners are dealt with someway, somehow.

People should be able to enjoy sharing their lives with their animals and not have to constantly worry about that peace being interupted by the irresponsible minority, but we live in a selfish world where many people do not consider others and I can not see it changing in my lifetime.

[corvus]

Sometimes I am not sure what parallel universe I live in. On the weekend we left a dog park because there was an anti-social dog that Erik couldn't handle (Kivi was fine, but he's big and fluffy and has more experience). It is only the second or third time I've left prematurely, and we visit dog parks and off leash beaches several times a week. Lots of different ones, almost every day. There are some we have learnt never to go to, but otherwise, we just don't have a lot of problems. Even when I had my old, grumpy girl she'd just give them the look and they'd avoid her.

I figure there are two ways to approach dog parks: avoid or socialise them to it. Not every dog is gonna love it or be easily socialised to it, so you carefully ask yourself if it's in their best interests to take them. My boys are both pretty confident and they take things in their stride. They know dogs appear out of nowhere and stick their noses up their butts, or come racing over and may bowl them, or might snap at them, or be unfriendly, or get up them for going near the ball. They know some dogs are downright weird and will rush them and then run away. They know how to say stop non-aggressively, how to get out of a game that has become too boisterous without getting chased and rumbled, and the efficacy of being able to say "I'm no threat; please don't hurt me." They know who to avoid and how to tell a dog to relax and it takes actually getting aggressively chased and bitten by a dog to really worry them, because if that happens their attempts to communicate have failed. It's happened... maybe three times in the last few years. I'm yet to have to break up a fight or treat an injury. And you know what? With all this rude behaviour they still have a blast every time. They are totally comfortable with the bad bits and love the good bits.

So I dunno. You do what works best for you and what makes your dog feel safe and secure. For my two confident boys lots of early exposure under super close supervision has given them a high tolerance for a lot of odd behaviour.

[poodlefan]

Sometimes I am not sure what parallel universe I live in. On the weekend we left a dog park because there was an anti-social dog that Erik couldn't handle (Kivi was fine, but he's big and fluffy and has more experience). It is only the second or third time I've left prematurely, and we visit dog parks and off leash beaches several times a week. Lots of different ones, almost every day. There are some we have learnt never to go to, but otherwise, we just don't have a lot of problems. Even when I had my old, grumpy girl she'd just give them the look and they'd avoid her.

I figure there are two ways to approach dog parks: avoid or socialise them to it. Not every dog is gonna love it or be easily socialised to it, so you carefully ask yourself if it's in their best interests to take them. My boys are both pretty confident and they take things in their stride. They know dogs appear out of nowhere and stick their noses up their butts, or come racing over and may bowl them, or might snap at them, or be unfriendly, or get up them for going near the ball. They know some dogs are downright weird and will rush them and then run away. They know how to say stop non-aggressively, how to get out of a game that has become too boisterous without getting chased and rumbled, and the efficacy of being able to say "I'm no threat; please don't hurt me." They know who to avoid and how to tell a dog to relax and it takes actually getting aggressively chased and bitten by a dog to really worry them, because if that happens their attempts to communicate have failed. It's happened... maybe three times in the last few years. I'm yet to have to break up a fight or treat an injury. And you know what? With all this rude behaviour they still have a blast every time. They are totally comfortable with the bad bits and love the good bits.

So I dunno. You do what works best for you and what makes your dog feel safe and secure. For my two confident boys lots of early exposure under super close supervision has given them a high tolerance for a lot of odd behaviour.

There's a difference between what a dog can tolerate and what constitutes a risk to its safety. One can be managed by good socialisation (up to a point) and the other can only be dealt with by intervention and/or avoidance. No amount of "exposure" prepares a dog to handle being bitten, shaken or crushed.

Sure some dogs can learn to cope with unacceptable rudeness or aggression by others. That may be fine for some dog owners if they detemine their dogs aren't at direct physical risk of harm.

However, the question I ask myself is how desireable are the coping mechanisms dogs adopt in these situations. They cope by submitting to behaviour they shouldn't have to tolerate, by becoming pre-emptively aggressive, or by flight - all of which are hardly desireable responses IMO.

My 4.5 kg Toy Poodle has had her butt sniffed by dogs up to Newfoundland size and she's fine with it. However a dog that wants to mouth her, grab her or squash her is NOT a situation where I'd expect her to "cope". She has little capacity to stop unwanted behaviour by a much larger dog without an aggressive response or flight.. not what you want to see in a multidog situation.

I consider it my responsibilty to keep my dogs safe. Tiny dogs need more protection because they have less ability to withstand inappropriate behaviour or to defend themselves if they have to. Its that simple. If you don't have a tiny dog to protect count your blessings but I'd suggest you walk in the shows of a SWF owner before you determine that their concerns about dog parks are fantasy.

Tiny dogs and baby puppies die in them. That's an indeniable fact. Despite the "aggressive SWF" stories that prevail, a significant proportion die because they meet the wrong dog, belonging to the wrong owner and through no fault of their own. That's also a fact.

What the dog park bullies fail to care about is that tiny dog owners pay registration for their dogs and should be entitled to exercise them safely. A strategy of avoidance denies their dogs the freedom of safe off leash exercise in many dog parks and that's plain unfair. Same goes for owners of very young, very old and invalid dogs.

Edited June 17, 2010 by poodlefan

[frufru]

Obviously bullies don't just exist in off lead dog parks. I am dissappointed that the original poster came here with a asking "what can I do" only to have several posters respond in a flipant manner while others derailed the topic to complain about swf - how rude!!!!

I think it is a sad day for dogdom when someone with a dog they describe as well socialised and minding its own business is unable to be taken for an outing to an offleash park or beach.

Thank you to the people who offered support an ideas to malteseluna. I don't think you were over reacting or overprotective - I don't see why your dog should be "herded" or subject to any other behaviours that you are not comfortable with just because you are in an off leash area.

Edited June 17, 2010 by frufru

[Aidan]

I don't see why your dog should be "herded" or subject to any other behaviours that you are not comfortable with just because you are in an off leash area.

No. But it is, however, likely to happen.

[poodlefan]

I think it is a sad day for dogdom when someone with a dog they describe as well socialised and minding its own business is unable to be taken for an outing to an offleash park or beach.

That day has come and gone.. a long time ago.

I think the behaviour I find the most objectionable is that those owners who express concern for the safety of their dogs are somehow held to be "over protective" or the inference is given that if the dog can't cope, there's something wrong with the dog or its upbringing.

Advice like "don't pick your dog up" neglects to face the reality that a dog on lead, on the ground is a sitting duck for aggression. It can't fight and it can't flee. My advice is if you can't pick your dog up, let the leash go and give your poor dog a chance to defend itself.

Edited June 17, 2010 by poodlefan

[claireybell]

My cocker is what we call the "happy idiot". She just has no idea how to be angry or nasty. She constantly wags her tail and loves all creatures big and small. I have found that she attracts all dogs to her. Whenever we go to a leash free park nearly every dog there will come up to say hello to her. Fine by me and by my dog. However after saying hello some will often start being bossy with her and very occassionally aggresive.

I love that my cocker is just so happy and I never want that to change. Because of that I have stopped taking her to alot of leash free area's. We go to dog club when its not on as this is leash free and 99% of the time is empty. The only time my cocker socialises with other dogs now is if we have met the other dog on lead and both humans have agreed that its ok for our dogs to play together. Its a sad situation but I would rather keep my happy girl than have her turn into something different.

[frufru]

So we are just suppossed to shrug our shoulders or not go outside our safe little yards

I fail to see why malteseluna should somehow be painted as the bad guy because she owns a swf and sought to enjoy an outing with her family whilst on a weekend getway. Sorry but I will always expect manners from dogs and their owners and be dissappointed when they are not met.

I don't go to of leash areas to meet other dogs - I go so mine can stretch their legs - I don't expect to be bothered by other peoples dogs unless I want to be. It is the height of bad manners to let your dog run up to people or other dogs without asking permission.

Edited June 17, 2010 by frufru

[corvus]

However, the question I ask myself is how desireable are the coping mechanisms dogs adopt in these situations. They cope by submitting to behaviour they shouldn't have to tolerate, by becoming pre-emptively aggressive, or by flight - all of which are hardly desireable responses IMO.

I think that's a very important point. I think it's ideal that my dogs cope with rude behaviour non-aggressively without fear. They don't know that it's behaviour they shouldn't have to tolerate, so why should they care? They don't as long as their strategy works. I am happy to let them practise non-aggressive, non-fearful coping behaviours and have success with it until the cows come home. I will bail early if they are not having success with their non-aggressive coping behaviours. I don't want them to be doing the flight or fight thing rather than the tend and befriend thing.

If you don't have a tiny dog to protect count your blessings but I'd suggest you walk in the shows of a SWF owner before you determine that their concerns about dog parks are fantasy.

I have. Penny was small, old and fragile when I was taking her to dog parks. She had a pre-emptively aggressive coping strategy. She very rarely had to use it. Like I said, a look and they'd leave her alone. Erik's not exactly huge, either. You can bet I was insanely careful when I was introducing him to dog parks as a 6kg puppy. He's the height of most of the SWFs we see, just heavier. Doesn't mean a big dog can't hurt him by accident.

I don't think that anyone's dog park concerns are fantasy. I believe them, I'm just yet to experience it. I'm always ready for it and it never happens. I don't know what people want. Do you want to take your dogs to dog parks or not? If you do, socialise the heck out of them and be as cautious as hell like everyone who has any sense does. If you don't, then don't. It's like on one hand everyone's advocating a person's right to take their small dog to a park and on the other telling them it's too dangerous to do it. They are two unrelated things. Either it's too dangerous or it's not. Whether it's right or wrong for it to be too dangerous is out of the equation as far as making risk assessments goes. You've got to be realistic. I'm not going to be blessed with a population full of people that follow dog park rules any time soon, so I just make sure I follow them and make sure my dogs are as bombproof as they can be. Seems to work for me.

[Henrietta]

I have a fear aggressive little dog and we keep out of offlead parks and places where there is a high chance that there will be offlead dogs.

I use the avoidance strategy regularly. In fact, I plan all our 'outings' around this.

We have our regular haunts and when I feel we need somewhere different I scout a new area. I really take this seriously because I do not want my dog dead and it is my job to protect her.

I don't want her hurting another dog either, by the way. I don't want to see other dogs hurt physically or mentally by my dog's behaviour.

I have done and will continue to pick up my dog on the odd occasion that my prevention and avoidance strategies have still landed me with an offlead dog whose owners cannot hear or will not listen. These things happen so fast. I don't like to have to pick her up. I would rather I didn't have to, but there you have it, sometimes it is the only way I feel I can avert disaster.

I take full responsibility for my dog's behaviourial issues, it has been a hard (yet interesting and rewarding) learning curve.

You won't see me down at the local dog park (or anywhere for that matter) letting my little dog terrorise any dog - big or small.

Edited for really bad wording!

Edited June 17, 2010 by Emm

[poodlefan]

I don't think that anyone's dog park concerns are fantasy. I believe them, I'm just yet to experience it. I'm always ready for it and it never happens. I don't know what people want. Do you want to take your dogs to dog parks or not? If you do, socialise the heck out of them and be as cautious as hell like everyone who has any sense does. If you don't, then don't. It's like on one hand everyone's advocating a person's right to take their small dog to a park and on the other telling them it's too dangerous to do it. They are two unrelated things. Either it's too dangerous or it's not. Whether it's right or wrong for it to be too dangerous is out of the equation as far as making risk assessments goes. You've got to be realistic. I'm not going to be blessed with a population full of people that follow dog park rules any time soon, so I just make sure I follow them and make sure my dogs are as bombproof as they can be. Seems to work for me.

Corvus, I hope for both your sake and your dogs that your run of good luck continues. Most people who say they've never seen a serious incident in a dog park get to revise that statement in the end. Fingers crossed its not one of your dogs on the receiving end.

Of course most people want to take their dogs to off leash exercise areas. However not everyone who visits has the primary objective of letting their dogs socialise with other dogs when there. As it currently stands, other park user's behaviour makes it downright unsafe for many tiny dogs and pups to be there. There shouldn't be muggings at the gate, ganging up and chasing or dust ups over toys but they all occur.

As I pointed out, no amount of socialisation will protect a dog or pup from physical harm - either intentional or not - if its in the wrong place at the wrong time. 60kg dogs and 3kg dogs is not a safe combination unless careful supervison and control is exercised by BOTH owners.

If you want to talk the language of rights and responsilities I'd put it like this:

In order to have the right to use an off leash exercise area, you should accept the responsibility to effectively control your dog and prevent it from interfering with others unless other owners permit it. I can dream but while off leash parks remain the law enforcement voids that they currently are, I doubt much will change.

Edited June 17, 2010 by poodlefan

[Quickasyoucan]

I'm pretty much resigned to the tactic of avoidance - have been avoiding places for awhile this was one of those rare occasions I went with my parents somewhere.

Maybe I should just buy my own island - beach, park and house all solved in one ... pity about the price tag attached

Walking at dawn would probably be cheaper. The idiots seem to llike to sleep in.

Or walk in heavy rain - only for the truly dedicated

Slightly off topic but on the same theme a friend of mine who has a DA dog who is on leash at all times and only street walked has had to resort to walking at 5.00 am or in bad weather because we have a number of owners in our area who think it is their right to walk their dogs off leash on the streets.

She actually struck up a conversation at a distance with one woman who had her dog on a lead as she is trying to desensitise her own dog. The conversation went something like, "My dog is DA I am trying to desensitise him, this is helpful to chat at a distance", the other lady's reply "Oh my dog is a bit DA and a bit HA you are lucky as I was about to let him off the lead (this is on a suburban street where there could be young children, dogs, old people etc)". When my friend questioned this she said it is my right to do what I like with my dog.

I mean what is in these people's heads - Rocks?

Edited June 17, 2010 by Quickasyoucan

[Moselle]

I think it is a sad day for dogdom when someone with a dog they describe as well socialised and minding its own business is unable to be taken for an outing to an offleash park or beach.

That day has come and gone.. a long time ago.

I think the behaviour I find the most objectionable is that those owners who express concern for the safety of their dogs are somehow held to be "over protective" or the inference is given that if the dog can't cope, there's something wrong with the dog or its upbringing.

Advice like "don't pick your dog up" neglects to face the reality that a dog on lead, on the ground is a sitting duck for aggression. It can't fight and it can't flee. My advice is if you can't pick your dog up, let the leash go and give your poor dog a chance to defend itself.

Arr no, poodlefan, lol. Letting the leash go and hoping that one's dog has a chance of running away and having more of a chance of defending itself, imo, is not giving the dog a chance at all. If the dog that is let loose happens to be a swf and the aggressor is a larger dog....what chance will the swf stand of running away?

[Moselle]

I'm pretty much resigned to the tactic of avoidance - have been avoiding places for awhile this was one of those rare occasions I went with my parents somewhere.

Maybe I should just buy my own island - beach, park and house all solved in one ... pity about the price tag attached

Walking at dawn would probably be cheaper. The idiots seem to llike to sleep in.

Or walk in heavy rain - only for the truly dedicated

Slightly off topic but on the same theme a friend of mine who has a DA dog who is on leash at all times and only street walked has had to resort to walking at 5.00 am or in bad weather because we have a number of owners in our area who think it is their right to walk their dogs off leash on the streets.

She actually struck up a conversation at a distance with one woman who had her dog on a lead as she is trying to desensitise her own dog. The conversation went something like, "My dog is DA I am trying to desensitise him, this is helpful to chat at a distance", the other lady's reply "Oh my dog is a bit DA and a bit HA you are lucky as I was about to let him off the lead (this is on a suburban street where there could be young children, dogs, old people etc)". When my friend questioned this she said it is my right to do what I like with my dog.

I mean what is in these people's heads - Rocks?

That is the very kind of response that would make me use every 4 letter word I could muster. Such people have no brains, only shit for a brain!!! :D I'd like to see if they were to be the victims of a dog attack...how would they feel to be on the receiving end? I really need to exercise on patience, something that I don't possess when it comes to such idioticy!

[corvus]

In order to have the right to use an off leash exercise area, you should accept the responsibility to effectively control your dog and prevent it from interfering with others unless other owners permit it. I can dream but while off leash parks remain the law enforcement voids that they currently are, I doubt much will change.

I don't disagree in the slightest. My concern (and, it appears, the concern of the OP) is what you do about the other off leash area users in the meantime. And the way I see it, you avoid dog parks or you do lots of socialisation and live with the risks. What else can you do? Which way you decide to go depends on your assessment of the risks.

[Adnil444]

Sometimes I am not sure what parallel universe I live in. On the weekend we left a dog park because there was an anti-social dog that Erik couldn't handle (Kivi was fine, but he's big and fluffy and has more experience). It is only the second or third time I've left prematurely, and we visit dog parks and off leash beaches several times a week. Lots of different ones, almost every day. There are some we have learnt never to go to, but otherwise, we just don't have a lot of problems. Even when I had my old, grumpy girl she'd just give them the look and they'd avoid her.

I figure there are two ways to approach dog parks: avoid or socialise them to it. Not every dog is gonna love it or be easily socialised to it, so you carefully ask yourself if it's in their best interests to take them. My boys are both pretty confident and they take things in their stride. They know dogs appear out of nowhere and stick their noses up their butts, or come racing over and may bowl them, or might snap at them, or be unfriendly, or get up them for going near the ball. They know some dogs are downright weird and will rush them and then run away. They know how to say stop non-aggressively, how to get out of a game that has become too boisterous without getting chased and rumbled, and the efficacy of being able to say "I'm no threat; please don't hurt me." They know who to avoid and how to tell a dog to relax and it takes actually getting aggressively chased and bitten by a dog to really worry them, because if that happens their attempts to communicate have failed. It's happened... maybe three times in the last few years. I'm yet to have to break up a fight or treat an injury. And you know what? With all this rude behaviour they still have a blast every time. They are totally comfortable with the bad bits and love the good bits.

So I dunno. You do what works best for you and what makes your dog feel safe and secure. For my two confident boys lots of early exposure under super close supervision has given them a high tolerance for a lot of odd behaviour.

There's a difference between what a dog can tolerate and what constitutes a risk to its safety. One can be managed by good socialisation (up to a point) and the other can only be dealt with by intervention and/or avoidance. No amount of "exposure" prepares a dog to handle being bitten, shaken or crushed.

Sure some dogs can learn to cope with unacceptable rudeness or aggression by others. That may be fine for some dog owners if they detemine their dogs aren't at direct physical risk of harm.

However, the question I ask myself is how desireable are the coping mechanisms dogs adopt in these situations. They cope by submitting to behaviour they shouldn't have to tolerate, by becoming pre-emptively aggressive, or by flight - all of which are hardly desireable responses IMO.

My 4.5 kg Toy Poodle has had her butt sniffed by dogs up to Newfoundland size and she's fine with it. However a dog that wants to mouth her, grab her or squash her is NOT a situation where I'd expect her to "cope". She has little capacity to stop unwanted behaviour by a much larger dog without an aggressive response or flight.. not what you want to see in a multidog situation.

I consider it my responsibilty to keep my dogs safe. Tiny dogs need more protection because they have less ability to withstand inappropriate behaviour or to defend themselves if they have to. Its that simple. If you don't have a tiny dog to protect count your blessings but I'd suggest you walk in the shows of a SWF owner before you determine that their concerns about dog parks are fantasy.

Tiny dogs and baby puppies die in them. That's an indeniable fact. Despite the "aggressive SWF" stories that prevail, a significant proportion die because they meet the wrong dog, belonging to the wrong owner and through no fault of their own. That's also a fact.

What the dog park bullies fail to care about is that tiny dog owners pay registration for their dogs and should be entitled to exercise them safely. A strategy of avoidance denies their dogs the freedom of safe off leash exercise in many dog parks and that's plain unfair. Same goes for owners of very young, very old and invalid dogs.

That's why there should be small dog parks and big/large dog parks - petition your council and hopefully they will listen.

I have a small dog as well as a medium and large dog. I won't take my small dog to an off-leash park - simple as that. They cannot take the knocks, and any rough and tumble action that will at some stage happen to them (there are a few exceptions, but generally the small dogs cannot tolerate this sort of behaviour). My small dog gets enough exercise on leash and in our yard and she mixes with my other two plus other dogs we meet on lead walks. She is fine with all other dogs.

A lot of the bigger dogs also have drives (whether they were bred for hunting, retrieving, herding etc) and small fluffy dogs do look like prey to them (not all but many will see a SWF as prey). Not all dogs are candidates for dog parks - that goes for all sizes. A dog park is also somewhere were an invalid dog or very old dog should be either - why take the risk that they could be hurt - gentle leash walks for them would all that would be needed.

Some of the behaviour you state - mouthing, for example is how many dogs play - unfortunately for the little ones it can be a frightening experience for them and as stated above, that's why I won't take my small dog to a dog off-leash park (unless it is segregated).

While I agree with you on some of your points, I also agree with other posters that avoidance is really the only way to protect your dog (or go at times when they are not busy). Better still, why not get a walking group together - several dog owners get together and walk their dogs on lead in a group - you get to have a relaxing walk and chat with friends and the dogs get their exercise and have other dogs with them.

[myzchev]

I have big black hairy Belgian Shepherds, some of them are high prey drive and others not. When I am out in public with one or more of my dogs it is MY responsilbity to control my dogs behaviour AT ALL TIMES.

Why should people who own SWF's be penalised by not being able to walk or exercise their dogs anywhere because of moronic owners? How is that fair? Do they pay less in council fees as owners of SWF's? No of course not!

I love the idea that some American cities have adopted and that is the OWNER is licensed and NOT the dog!!!

BTW if those of you who own Kelpies and BC's and your dog comes stalking one of mine - it will have more than a poo bag thrown at it. Oh yes, I also owned a very high drive working Kelpie before I got into Belgians and she was NOT EVER allowed to stalk SWF's either! You may think it is playing, but SWF owners often don't know this and it can be very frightening to the owners [especially the elderly who feel very vulnarable]. You must remember it is how other people perceive your dogs actions that are important, not how they are actually behaving.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

http://crl.ucsd.edu/~ahorowit/dogresearch

http://crl.ucsd.edu/~ahorowit/HorowitzEncycl.doc

A Great Dane, at its shoulders the height of a small horse, spots his target across the lawn: a six-pound Chihuahua almost hidden in the high grasses. With one languorous leap, his ears perked, the Dane arrives in front of the trembling Chihuahua. He lowers his head and bows to the little dog, raising his rear end up in the air, and wagging his tail. Instead of fleeing, the Chihuahua mirrors this pose in return, and she leaps onto the head of the Dane, embracing his nose with her tiny paws. They begin to play.

How does a small dog learn this if the owner *always* picks it up.