Dol Breed Listings

[Rach...]

I am definately no expert on GSDs or protection dogs, but being someone who when looking for a pet goes through the DOL listings. I see no problem with it, I see too many of the wrong people owning GSDs especially the working line ones. These dogs were obviously bred for something specific and their breeder is advertising them in that way. I would look at the add and think ooop working line GSD too much for me and continue looking.

[Staranais]

The Australian National Kennel Council and its Member Bodies totally and unequivocally oppose the practice of training of a dog to attack humans or any other animals, or of causing dogs to fight. We totally support any State or Federal laws that would outlaw this practice. Such practice is an offence against Member Bodiesí Regulations.

Really? I find that very sad. Dogs have been our watchdogs & our hunting companions since the stone age.

I can't believe that the Australian national kennel council has the best interests of any of the hunting or guardian breeds at heart if they don't want them to do their jobs anymore.

[Aidan]

The Australian National Kennel Council and its Member Bodies totally and unequivocally oppose the practice of training of a dog to attack humans or any other animals, or of causing dogs to fight. We totally support any State or Federal laws that would outlaw this practice. Such practice is an offence against Member Bodiesí Regulations.

Really? I find that very sad. Dogs have been our watchdogs & our hunting companions since the stone age.

I can't believe that the Australian national kennel council has the best interests of any of the hunting or guardian breeds at heart if they don't want them to do their jobs anymore.

I would be surprised if they opposed actual working dogs, although they do clearly oppose sports that involve man work so who knows?

[Jeff Jones]

I think Jeffs point was that the video supplied about working dogs was just as rediculous and biased as the one he put up ... anyone heard of sarcasm? Shortstep offers they know nothing about it yet provide a video supposedly with educational value.

[Aidan]

said I knew nothing about attack dogs, but I am learning a lot about their owners...LOL

Just call me ms public...LOL

I gave an opinion, declared it as "just my opinion" and you came back with sarcasm. It's OK to disagree with me or hold a different opinion, just don't be sarcastic about it. I don't know you well enough for that to work.

[Jeff Jones]

Not that means anything on DOL I imagine, but find it interesting non the less. As I said the world of Attack dogs or Hard Protection dogs or Secutiry dogs or what ever you want to call them, is new to me and I do not know anything about where these sorts of dogs are found for sale. Why not DOL?? Yes why not, I agree.

The breeder is selling working line German Shepherds. They are not selling "Hard protection dogs" or "security dogs" they are advertising for interested persons to contact them regarding working line puppies...

Integraguard are very proud and excited to announce this upcoming, strong working line litter. Integraguard Byanka has been mated to Yultzen Diesel, and we're expecting puppies around July 10. These dogs will suit serious working homes, the lines are very strong as are the two dogs involved themselves. Please check our website at; www.integraguard.com.au for all upcoming details and progress reports. Please also feel free to contact us directly through our web page for any further details. We are anticipating great interest over this litter, and therefore recommend early expression of any interests you may have. This will be the first litter from both dogs, and we are genuinely excited to see what will be produced. Priority will be given to people who commit to train and socialise their new puppy with us during the 8-20 week stage, with ongoing further training always an option. These should prove to be incredible working dogs, with natural drive, aggression and balance.

I think to much emphasis has been placed on the fact that they have listed there dogs have "aggression" out of the 62 litters of German Shepherd litters advertised only 3 breeders comment on training and socialisation in there ad. I guess this breeders main fault is they put too much information in there advertisement. I guess they need to copy some of the other breeders on DOL and only announce they have a litter of pups available with a physical description on each puppy with no comments based on there temperament.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Jeff Jones

[DerRottweiler]

Anyway I think most of the 'public' have an idea of what they think agression in dogs means. If you guys beleive you can change that perception in the general public into something positive that will promote certain breeds being bred for agression, go for it. I'll watch.....

its not the overall breed its some lines. Difference. They have a real world application and need in society. If the breeders are not selling them to Jo Bloggs then whats the issue with it? The public appreciate dogs doing jobs but they understand they are 'different' to pet ones.

I still dont see how this is a confusing issue for so many people.

Which goes back to my original question, do people who own and use attack dogs really shop on DOL for their next dog? Really??? And of course you can word that this way too...do people who breed and train attack dogs really offer them for sale on DOL?

I guess the answer is yes on both counts. And next time I need an attack dog I will know where to shop for it! As I said I will go back under my rock of blissful ignorance.

Given what you've displayed so far, you'd be knocked back from getting your ''attack'' dog.

Not every John Smith can acquire one, let alone handle and train one.

[BJean]

No I don't think so Jeff. I am fine with the how hard protection dogs are selected by the militray or others in the public sector that use dogs for hard protection work.

I also think it is fine to advertize breeding programs for hard protection bred dogs and use the word agression to discribe their temperament here on DOL, after all GSD dogs are not banned (yet).

I dont think obfuscation through the use of euphemisms is beneficial long term.

Yes restricting canine temperament descriptions to PC words people prefer to hear

will not effect the summation of most companion / lap breeds

but it will effect the learning and knowlegde base of dog owners in general.

If use of the word aggression sounds the death nell for GSD

then all dogs are done anyway.

Edited June 16, 2010 by lilli

[Kavik]

Since it is mentioned as a positive (will bite if asked/to move difficult stock) I assume it is sometimes necessary and not always a bad thing

To qualify what I wrote earlier.

There is a difference in a dog gripping stock because the dog is stressed/unsure/excited/out of control (undesirable) and gripping stock because the stock challenged the dog and is refusing to move.

Just as in Schutzhund you are penalised if the dog grips on the bark and hold, while you want them to grip if the decoy runs away or challenges the dog.

The dog is expected to be able to use force when necessary, if being challenged.

[BJean]

uuuuu I don't have show dogs and said I knew nothing about attack dogs, but I am learning a lot about their owners...LOL

Just call me ms public...LOL

No thankyou.

Cloaking your opinion in sardonic inference, does not make it representative of the public's thoughts and voice.

The public has a great capacity to learn and do the best by all dogs; if only they are given balanced information.

Edited June 16, 2010 by lilli

[chloeshepherd]

I find this argument all really sad. If someone is looking for a GSD and come across this ad and change their mind about the breed then the breed really isn't for them. They obviously haven't done enough research on the breed. Nothing wrong with aggression in a well trained working dog. I would feel better about approaching a well trained working dog then the neighbours dog!

maybe I'm biased, but I think a working GSD is just amazing. I could never own one, but they do such a great job at what they do, and someone out there needs to breed them and train them. They play a major role now along with other working breeds.

Just my two cents

[Dobeliscious]

Nothing wrong with the ad at all, perfect choice of words.

[Alasse]

I cant see anything wrong with the ad personally.

Plenty of others to look through, if the breeders dogs weren't what you were after.

[K9Nev]

The problem is how the general public see the breed and how the breed is presented.

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though.

Breeding "extreme" dogs in aggression, advertising them as such, and selling to anyone does have the potential to send a breed down the Pitbull path from a public perception. It's not difficult to guess the ramifications when a couple of black GSD's bred in this manner maul a child or worse in an uprovoked attack which is not a possibility that is out of the question and could easily happen. But the point is IMHO, we need good working GSD's and "good" is the operative word which I think some need to read the breed standards and understand what a "good" GSD is supposed to be. If they can't find working lines that can do the work without explosive uncontrolled aggression, they really need to re-work their bloodlines and get some more experience I think.

[DerRottweiler]

Where the heck does the ad say anything about ''explosive uncontrolled aggression"?

Those dogs are proper working GSDs, yes there are many different types of working GSDs for different purposes. Even the show GSD should have a degree of working ability. The problem is, many of the GSDs today are of weak nerve and have no working ability, the breed is being ruined!

Edited June 16, 2010 by DerRottwelier

[Wazzat Xolo]

I am a total GSD noob, but don't working dogs like PP dogs or police dogs need to have a level of aggression of some kind?

ETA: When it says natural aggression maybe they are referring to the dog's fight/combat drive or something??

No Police dogs are NOT asessed on their agression its the drive !

In fact overly agressive dogs dont make good Police Dogs

[K9Nev]

Being a "working line" is too often the excuse for a nervy dog that flies off the handle in aggression easily seeing everything in it's path as a threat which IMO is incorrect??? :D

I know individuals who prefer this sort of dog. I don't think the majority of breeders of working lines think this is the standard to which they should strive though.

Perhaps it depends on the handler & what they want the dog for? For a SAR or sport or a PP dog, being social & a good family dog is an important virtue. But if I were training a MWD or similar then perhaps I would put up with having a dog that was suspicious & dominant & came up the leash at me if it was also exceptionally ballsy when it counted? I don't really know - heck, I just do scent work with mine, not even bitesports - but I figure, different folks probably have different priorities. I don't think it is one-size-fits-all with working dogs.

I don't know anyone who would want a nerve bag, though.

This is where it goes off track IMO because dogs that genetically light up fast are nervy dogs that lack confidence coupled with defence drive is a nasty dog with the potential to be uncontrollable. Half of the dogs like this won't "out" and are not clear headed enough to take the command. Fast light up's and over sharpness although it looks tough and is workable in defence doesn't equate to nerve strength and is usually the opposite. Dog's renowned for hard nerve and fighting drive are nothing like that, calm and uneffected until commanded or triggered to attack. It's a total misconception IMHO that unprovoked displays of aggression is the result of a hard nerved dog.

[K9Nev]

I am a total GSD noob, but don't working dogs like PP dogs or police dogs need to have a level of aggression of some kind?

ETA: When it says natural aggression maybe they are referring to the dog's fight/combat drive or something??

No Police dogs are NOT asessed on their agression its the drive !

In fact overly agressive dogs dont make good Police Dogs

CORRECT 100% Wazzat :D The nerve is to handle the pressure of the fight, the chase and attack is the result of prey drive :D

[Jeff Jones]

This is where it goes off track IMO because dogs that genetically light up fast are nervy dogs that lack confidence coupled with defence drive is a nasty dog with the potential to be uncontrollable. Half of the dogs like this won't "out" and are not clear headed enough to take the command. Fast light up's and over sharpness although it looks tough and is workable in defence doesn't equate to nerve strength and is usually the opposite. Dog's renowned for hard nerve and fighting drive are nothing like that, calm and uneffected until commanded or triggered to attack. It's a total misconception IMHO that unprovoked displays of aggression is the result of a hard nerved dog

What are you talking about? Dogs that lack confidence and "light up fast" are not dogs that would refuse to out... These dogs have extremely poor bites, they mouth and bounce off from what they are biting, they "out" very easily.

[K9Nev]

Where the heck does the ad say anything about ''explosive uncontrolled aggression"?

Those dogs are proper working GSDs, yes there are many different types of working GSDs for different purposes. Even the show GSD should have a degree of working ability. The problem is, many of the GSDs today are of weak nerve and have no working ability, the breed is being ruined!

Are they???, can't see any working titles on them or professional critiques to confirm that other than someone's opinion???. Have a look at the critiques on proven dogs like Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory etc and tell us how those dogs lacked nerve and working ability???. These dogs represent the true working GSD and IMHO are the models we should be working towards. These dogs also had ample aggression and not too many have been produced here that have matched them let alone improved on their traits. :D