Dol Breed Listings

[Staranais]

Being a "working line" is too often the excuse for a nervy dog that flies off the handle in aggression easily seeing everything in it's path as a threat which IMO is incorrect???

I know individuals who prefer this sort of dog. I don't think the majority of breeders of working lines think this is the standard to which they should strive though.

Perhaps it depends on the handler & what they want the dog for? For a SAR or sport or a PP dog, being social & a good family dog is an important virtue. But if I were training a MWD or similar then perhaps I would put up with having a dog that was suspicious & dominant & came up the leash at me if it was also exceptionally ballsy when it counted? I don't really know - heck, I just do scent work with mine, not even bitesports - but I figure, different folks probably have different priorities. I don't think it is one-size-fits-all with working dogs.

I don't know anyone who would want a nerve bag, though.

[shortstep]

The problem is how the general public see the breed and how the breed is presented.

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though.

I agree.

If the public does not like the idea of a breeds being bred for and used for attack work they need to get over it. More descriptive action photos to show real aggression would help them understand possibly.

Edited to add

Here ya go, some thing like this video will help people understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZb_pKKh8G4

Edited June 16, 2010 by shortstep

[Aidan]

The problem is how the general public see the breed and how the breed is presented.

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though.

I agree.

If the public does not like the idea of a breeds being bred for and used for attack work they need to get over it. More descriptive action photos to show real aggression would help them understand possibly.

Is it the public who do not like this idea, or a vocal minority? No-one seems to get upset when they send the dogs in to subdue a PCP addled lunatic with a knife in a shopping centre. No-one wants a dangerous dog living next door, at the same time they don't mind properly trained, bred and housed dogs who serve an important role in our community - and these dogs necessarily have aggression.

Notice that I said nothing about anyone having to "get over it".

Edited June 16, 2010 by Aidan

[Jeff Jones]

The problem is how the general public see the breed and how the breed is presented.

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though.

I agree.

If the public does not like the idea of a breeds being bred for and used for attack work they need to get over it. More descriptive action photos to show real aggression would help them understand possibly.

Edited to add

Here ya go, some thing like this video will help people understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZb_pKKh8G4

Ok just like this video will help people understand about show dogs.

This is great I really think we are getting somewhere! Please keep up with your highly educational and informative posts shortstep. Your common sense and overwhelming knowledge on the subject is helping not only myself but many others as well.

[Aidan]

after all GSD dogs are not banned (yet).

While there are still some left who continue to fill a vital working role in our society I think they are safe. The ones who feature amongst the bite statistics are generally not working dogs.

[shortstep]

The problem is how the general public see the breed and how the breed is presented.

I tend to think that if we stopped pandering to the vocal minority and just presented the facts the "public" would have a better chance of understanding. This is just my opinion though.

I agree.

If the public does not like the idea of a breeds being bred for and used for attack work they need to get over it. More descriptive action photos to show real aggression would help them understand possibly.

Edited to add

Here ya go, some thing like this video will help people understand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZb_pKKh8G4

Ok just like this video will help people understand about show dogs.

This is great I really think we are getting somewhere! Please keep up with your highly educational and informative posts shortstep. Your common sense and overwhelming knowledge on the subject is helping not only myself but many others as well.

uuuuu I don't have show dogs and said I knew nothing about attack dogs, but I am learning a lot about their owners...LOL

Just call me ms public...LOL

[MolassesLass]

Is it the public who do not like this idea, or a vocal minority? No-one seems to get upset when they send the dogs in to subdue a PCP addled lunatic with a knife in a shopping centre. No-one wants a dangerous dog living next door, at the same time they don't mind properly trained, bred and housed dogs who serve an important role in our community - and these dogs necessarily have aggression.

Most people don't have a problem with cops carrying handguns but do with other members of the public doing so. This is no different.

I don't have any problem with aggressive dogs being owned by police/military/(non-cowboy) security but I do have a problem with anyone else having them, and I think the general public agrees. When they see ads promoting "aggression" in dogs they begin assume that the dog next door is one of these types and it promotes fear and bias. The public do not understand that police/military source dogs from pet/sporting sources, like whomever it was in this thread, they'd be very surprised to learn these dogs aren't specially bred and trained by those orgs. And clearly education isn't enough or the pitbull wouldn't be as maligned as it is.

Maybe this particular ad says "for police/military owners only" and is clear (I haven't seen the ad itself, haven't checked who it is - it's inconsequential) but given the current issue in Qld (re: AmStaffs) I think the best thing everyone can do for all dogs is to be very very careful. Why not leave the information for those who understand it - advertise directly to the police/military and/or use different terms to convey the meaning.

ETA: (Having seen some posts written while I was typing) - To clarify, I'm not trying to get into yet another show vs working argument, this isn't about that. I'd love the thread to continue without going any further there .

Edited June 16, 2010 by molasseslass

[Crisovar]

Ok just like this video will help people understand about show dogs.

And just how many GSD do you see that look as bad as the carefully chosen ones featured on that video.

[Nekhbet]

I think Jeffs point was that the video supplied about working dogs was just as rediculous and biased as the one he put up ... anyone heard of sarcasm? Shortstep offers they know nothing about it yet provide a video supposedly with educational value.

[Staranais]

Shortstep, I don't think the guard dog centre have a particularly savory reputation among Aussie working dog trainers.

I think ring trials clips can be helpful to help people understand a normal, good, balanced working dog can be like. They're sport, but they show that the dogs ideally have a huge amount of obedience & control as well as courage & aggression - which is what most people are worried about. Here are two - one is top level dogs & one is just a brevet - but both possibly a better advertisement for the working dog than the clip you posted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkqfZYp_TVM...eos=qDLWqKu0lVk

[shortstep]

Ok just like this video will help people understand about show dogs.

And just how many GSD do you see that look as bad as the carefully chosen ones featured on that video.

Look...

The video about KC show dogs was done by those who do not favor KC show breeding of dogs, it was mean to be negative. Ok makers of video want to make a bad impression.

That attack dog video I located on a web site in OZ that breeds sells and trains attack dogs, I would assume they thought it was a good video to promote what they do. Exactly what I was sugesting, people who breed and use dogs for attack work on humans showing agression in a controlled work sort of way. That is what this video showed, I could hear people clapping in approval of the work shown. Get it? A video chosen by attack dog trainers to promote attack dogs.

Anyway I think most of the 'public' have an idea of what they think agression in dogs means. If you guys beleive you can change that perception in the general public into something positive that will promote certain breeds being bred for 'agression', go for it. I'll watch.....

Edited June 16, 2010 by shortstep

[Nekhbet]

Anyway I think most of the 'public' have an idea of what they think agression in dogs means. If you guys beleive you can change that perception in the general public into something positive that will promote certain breeds being bred for agression, go for it. I'll watch.....

its not the overall breed its some lines. Difference. They have a real world application and need in society. If the breeders are not selling them to Jo Bloggs then whats the issue with it? The public appreciate dogs doing jobs but they understand they are 'different' to pet ones.

I still dont see how this is a confusing issue for so many people.

[shortstep]

Anyway I think most of the 'public' have an idea of what they think agression in dogs means. If you guys beleive you can change that perception in the general public into something positive that will promote certain breeds being bred for agression, go for it. I'll watch.....

its not the overall breed its some lines. Difference. They have a real world application and need in society. If the breeders are not selling them to Jo Bloggs then whats the issue with it? The public appreciate dogs doing jobs but they understand they are 'different' to pet ones.

I still dont see how this is a confusing issue for so many people.

Which goes back to my original question, do people who own and use attack dogs really shop on DOL for their next dog? Really??? And of course you can word that this way too...do people who breed and train attack dogs really offer them for sale on DOL?

I guess the answer is yes on both counts. And next time I need an attack dog I will know where to shop for it! As I said I will go back under my rock of blissful ignorance.

Edited June 16, 2010 by shortstep

[blissirritated]

'Aggression' doesn't just mean 'wants to kill everything in its path'. I can be rather aggressive in my pursuit of chocolate, but it's very rare that anyone gets hurt in the process.

The context of that ad in the OP reads to me that they're referring more to a tenacious, hard-headed type of dog. If it said "guard dog, very aggressive, ate three children for breakfast this morning then mauled a granny and her shopping cart", that'd be different.

There's nothing to be gained in dumbing down the language of an advertisement to make them less offensive or more appealing to the 'public'. They're not the sort of dog that is suitable for the average owner and to make the ad sound that way would be misleading (and potentially dangerous) to all parties involved.

[Nekhbet]

•We are one of the more popular dog web sites in Australia. Before you part with your hard earned money, ensure people are going to see your ads.

from DOL. It is a popular purebreed website. Do you actually know there are members here interested in working line dogs and use them? Why not advertise on here too? This isnt just a show dog community, there are people on here with interests in protection, military, police, security etc.

Again whats your point. Integraguard are not the only GSD breeders who offer that calibre of working dog. Go check the listings. One even writes they are a preferred provider to NSW corrective services. DO we have a crack at them too? Working dogs are part of the pedigree world, I dont see why we should segregate them because they're not PC enough for you.

[shortstep]

'Aggression' doesn't just mean 'wants to kill everything in its path'. I can be rather aggressive in my pursuit of chocolate, but it's very rare that anyone gets hurt in the process.

The context of that ad in the OP reads to me that they're referring more to a tenacious, hard-headed type of dog. If it said "guard dog, very aggressive, ate three children for breakfast this morning then mauled a granny and her shopping cart", that'd be different.

There's nothing to be gained in dumbing down the language of an advertisement to make them less offensive or more appealing to the 'public'. They're not the sort of dog that is suitable for the average owner and to make the ad sound that way would be misleading (and potentially dangerous) to all parties involved.

You are most correct.

If dogs are being bred for 'aggression', what ever that may mean to the attack dog buyer, the general public or anyone else, with or with out images of chocolate in their minds, and these bred for 'aggression' dogs are being sold on DOL, I think it is very very wise that this is mentioned.

Edited June 16, 2010 by shortstep

[Nekhbet]

by the way they are not 'attack' dogs. They are either sportdog, protection, security etc depending on the canines application. Attack dog is usually reserved for ill trained dogs that have little or no control over their behaviors.

[MolassesLass]

Do you actually know there are members here interested in working line dogs and use them? Why not advertise on here too? This isnt just a show dog community, there are people on here with interests in protection, military, police, security etc.

Again whats your point. Integraguard are not the only GSD breeders who offer that calibre of working dog. Go check the listings. One even writes they are a preferred provider to NSW corrective services. DO we have a crack at them too? Working dogs are part of the pedigree world, I dont see why we should segregate them because they're not PC enough for you.

Not sure if this is directed at someone in particular...

Yes I'm aware, very much so recently. One or more of them felt the need to insult non-working dogs in the recent sports thread, made them stand out very much to me.

I haven't read all the posts I admit but where is the "having a crack" posts? I read people saying perhaps the wording of their ad wasn't the best thing for GSDs and dogs in general. That's not a crack though.

The context of that ad in the OP reads to me that they're referring more to a tenacious, hard-headed type of dog. If it said "guard dog, very aggressive, ate three children for breakfast this morning then mauled a granny and her shopping cart", that'd be different.

There's nothing to be gained in dumbing down the language of an advertisement to make them less offensive or more appealing to the 'public'. They're not the sort of dog that is suitable for the average owner and to make the ad sound that way would be misleading (and potentially dangerous) to all parties involved

I know what they mean too, I just think too many average pet owners are going to take it the wrong way and these type of dogs can be advertised another way that is factual but not potentially inflammatory. I completely agree that aggressive dogs shouldn't be made appealing or offered to average pet owners.

[laeral]

Anyway I think most of the 'public' have an idea of what they think agression in dogs means. If you guys beleive you can change that perception in the general public into something positive that will promote certain breeds being bred for agression, go for it. I'll watch.....

its not the overall breed its some lines. Difference. They have a real world application and need in society. If the breeders are not selling them to Jo Bloggs then whats the issue with it? The public appreciate dogs doing jobs but they understand they are 'different' to pet ones.

I still dont see how this is a confusing issue for so many people.

Which goes back to my original question, do people who own and use attack dogs really shop on DOL for their next dog? Really??? And of course you can word that this way too...do people who breed and train attack dogs really offer them for sale on DOL?

I guess the answer is yes on both counts. And next time I need an attack dog I will know where to shop for it! As I said I will go back under my rock of blissful ignorance.

Maybe they do, or maybe not. I cant answer that question as I don't have enough knowledge.

MY question however is what is wrong with them advertising on DOL if they want to? They have pure bred dogs that they wish to advertise on a pure breed dog website. These dogs are bred for a certain purpose which is quite clearly listed on the add. What is the problem with that?

Are we only allowed to advertise pet dogs on this site? If people don't like the term 'aggressive' and don't want a dog with this trait them they can look elsewhere or at other listings. Simple.

[shortstep]

Anyway I think most of the 'public' have an idea of what they think agression in dogs means. If you guys beleive you can change that perception in the general public into something positive that will promote certain breeds being bred for agression, go for it. I'll watch.....

its not the overall breed its some lines. Difference. They have a real world application and need in society. If the breeders are not selling them to Jo Bloggs then whats the issue with it? The public appreciate dogs doing jobs but they understand they are 'different' to pet ones.

I still dont see how this is a confusing issue for so many people.

Which goes back to my original question, do people who own and use attack dogs really shop on DOL for their next dog? Really??? And of course you can word that this way too...do people who breed and train attack dogs really offer them for sale on DOL?

I guess the answer is yes on both counts. And next time I need an attack dog I will know where to shop for it! As I said I will go back under my rock of blissful ignorance.

Maybe they do, or maybe not. I cant answer that question as I don't have enough knowledge.

MY question however is what is wrong with them advertising on DOL if they want to? They have pure bred dogs that they wish to advertise on a pure breed dog website. These dogs are bred for a certain purpose which is quite clearly listed on the add. What is the problem with that?

Are we only allowed to advertise pet dogs on this site? If people don't like the term 'aggressive' and don't want a dog with this trait them they can look elsewhere or at other listings. Simple.

Is DOL for any purebred dogs or only ANKC registered dogs, there is a difference. For example can purebred registered pitts advertize on DOL? Can a kennel of purebred working kelpies WKC registerd dogs have a breeders pages?

Anyway here is what ANKC has to say about it

The Australian National Kennel Council and its Member Bodies totally and unequivocally oppose the practice of training of a dog to attack humans or any other animals, or of causing dogs to fight. We totally support any State or Federal laws that would outlaw this practice. Such practice is an offence against Member Bodiesí Regulations.

Not that means anything on DOL I imagine, but find it interesting non the less. As I said the world of Attack dogs or Hard Protection dogs or Secutiry dogs or what ever you want to call them, is new to me and I do not know anything about where these sorts of dogs are found for sale. Why not DOL?? Yes why not, I agree.