Dol Breed Listings

[K9Nev]

This is where it goes off track IMO because dogs that genetically light up fast are nervy dogs that lack confidence coupled with defence drive is a nasty dog with the potential to be uncontrollable. Half of the dogs like this won't "out" and are not clear headed enough to take the command. Fast light up's and over sharpness although it looks tough and is workable in defence doesn't equate to nerve strength and is usually the opposite. Dog's renowned for hard nerve and fighting drive are nothing like that, calm and uneffected until commanded or triggered to attack. It's a total misconception IMHO that unprovoked displays of aggression is the result of a hard nerved dog

What are you talking about? Dogs that lack confidence and "light up fast" are not dogs that would refuse to out... These dogs have extremely poor bites, they mouth and bounce off from what they are biting, they "out" very easily.

Correct Jeff, they do have poor bites, generally tearing and re engagement and do a lot of damage in the process whilst the handlers try to control them. I doubt you would even select a dog like that to be training in bitework in the first place.........but some do unfortunately :D

[Jeff Jones]

Are they???, can't see any working titles on them or professional critiques to confirm that other than someone's opinion???. Have a look at the critiques on proven dogs like Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory etc and tell us how those dogs lacked nerve and working ability???. These dogs represent the true working GSD and IMHO are the models we should be working towards. These dogs also had ample aggression and not too many have been produced here that have matched them let alone improved on their traits. smile.gif

:D So you want people to read critiques/descriptions (someones opinion) on Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory but then you dismiss critiques/descriptions on the dogs listed in the advertisement...interesting.

[Aidan3]

Have a look at the critiques on proven dogs like Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory etc and tell us how those dogs lacked nerve and working ability???. These dogs represent the true working GSD and IMHO are the models we should be working towards. These dogs also had ample aggression and not too many have been produced here that have matched them let alone improved on their traits. :D

I couldn't comment on Integraguard as I don't know them, from what I can tell they train in the KNPV style. I was commenting on the use of "aggression" in the ad, which you seem to agree is OK (based on the above critique). You might be interested to know that they have based their breeding on Yultzen and Von Forell dogs, similar to your latest pup (and very similar to my bitch), and that Fax also features in these lines.

In fact, the litter in question is line-bred 4-4 on Fax!

Edited June 16, 2010 by Aidan2

[Staranais]

Perhaps it depends on the handler & what they want the dog for? For a SAR or sport or a PP dog, being social & a good family dog is an important virtue. But if I were training a MWD or similar then perhaps I would put up with having a dog that was suspicious & dominant & came up the leash at me if it was also exceptionally ballsy when it counted? I don't really know - heck, I just do scent work with mine, not even bitesports - but I figure, different folks probably have different priorities. I don't think it is one-size-fits-all with working dogs.

I don't know anyone who would want a nerve bag, though.

This is where it goes off track IMO because dogs that genetically light up fast are nervy dogs that lack confidence coupled with defence drive is a nasty dog with the potential to be uncontrollable. Half of the dogs like this won't "out" and are not clear headed enough to take the command. Fast light up's and over sharpness although it looks tough and is workable in defence doesn't equate to nerve strength and is usually the opposite. Dog's renowned for hard nerve and fighting drive are nothing like that, calm and uneffected until commanded or triggered to attack. It's a total misconception IMHO that unprovoked displays of aggression is the result of a hard nerved dog.

There's more to dog temperament than just prey, defence, & nerve, though. It's not like being nervous is the only characteristic that can make a dog a poor pet.

How about social aggression/rank aggression, for example - the dog that would love to be top of the heap and says "oh yeah? Gonna make me?" when someone tells it do so something it would prefer not to do. This type of temperament can make a dog far "too much dog" for a novice/pet home, without making it a nervous dog or a poor working candidate.

As for the poster who said that police dogs are assessed only on prey drive and not aggression - if that were true then we could use solid nerved greyhounds as patrol dogs!

[Wazzat Xolo]

Perhaps it depends on the handler & what they want the dog for? For a SAR or sport or a PP dog, being social & a good family dog is an important virtue. But if I were training a MWD or similar then perhaps I would put up with having a dog that was suspicious & dominant & came up the leash at me if it was also exceptionally ballsy when it counted? I don't really know - heck, I just do scent work with mine, not even bitesports - but I figure, different folks probably have different priorities. I don't think it is one-size-fits-all with working dogs.

I don't know anyone who would want a nerve bag, though.

This is where it goes off track IMO because dogs that genetically light up fast are nervy dogs that lack confidence coupled with defence drive is a nasty dog with the potential to be uncontrollable. Half of the dogs like this won't "out" and are not clear headed enough to take the command. Fast light up's and over sharpness although it looks tough and is workable in defence doesn't equate to nerve strength and is usually the opposite. Dog's renowned for hard nerve and fighting drive are nothing like that, calm and uneffected until commanded or triggered to attack. It's a total misconception IMHO that unprovoked displays of aggression is the result of a hard nerved dog.

There's more to dog temperament than just prey, defence, & nerve, though. It's not like being nervous is the only characteristic that can make a dog a poor pet.

How about social aggression/rank aggression, for example - the dog that would love to be top of the heap and says "oh yeah? Gonna make me?" when someone tells it do so something it would prefer not to do. This type of temperament can make a dog far "too much dog" for a novice/pet home, without making it a nervous dog or a poor working candidate.

As for the poster who said that police dogs are assessed only on prey drive and not aggression - if that were true then we could use solid nerved greyhounds as patrol dogs!

It was I WAZZATXOLO and I said

No Police dogs are NOT asessed on their agression its the drive In fact overly agressive dogs dont make good Police Dogs !

I said drive which is a different kettle of fish to prey drive too ( research that as well! )

:D

Anyhow what would I know !!!!! Gee whizz there are so many experts and a few spurts lol. My comments were made from personal experience from a Senior Police Dog Trainer, but what would he know anyhow !

I stand by my initial comments and I am sure if you research YOU will find they are spot on!!

Good luck with your mass debate

[Staranais]

Anyhow what would I know !!!!! Gee whizz there are so many experts and a few spurts lol. My comments were made from personal experience from a Senior Police Dog Trainer, but what would he know anyhow !

I stand by my initial comments and I am sure if you research YOU will find they are spot on!!

Good luck with your mass debate

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression?

It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression".

[Wazzat Xolo]

Anyhow what would I know !!!!! Gee whizz there are so many experts and a few spurts lol. My comments were made from personal experience from a Senior Police Dog Trainer, but what would he know anyhow !

I stand by my initial comments and I am sure if you research YOU will find they are spot on!!

Good luck with your mass debate

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression?

It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression".

I will email the Poilce Dog handler and post his reply! I do hope that will suffice as experience! I have no interest in this breed just wanted to correct the notion of all Police Dogs must have agression ( Which is not how they are trained!)

[Staranais]

Anyhow what would I know !!!!! Gee whizz there are so many experts and a few spurts lol. My comments were made from personal experience from a Senior Police Dog Trainer, but what would he know anyhow !

I stand by my initial comments and I am sure if you research YOU will find they are spot on!!

Good luck with your mass debate

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression?

It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression".

I will email the Poilce Dog handler and post his reply! I do hope that will suffice as experience! I have no interest in this breed just wanted to correct the notion of all Police Dogs must have agression ( Which is not how they are trained!)

Thanks, it will be interesting to hear what he has to say on the subject of how their police dogs are assessed, and what drives they test. (Edited to add, although I will be very confused if he says police dogs do not need any aggression, since that is exactly the opposite to what one handler told me about a month ago - that he hopes his dog displays more aggression as it matures!)

Edited June 16, 2010 by Staranais

[BJean]

There's more to dog temperament than just prey, defence, & nerve, though. It's not like being nervous is the only characteristic that can make a dog a poor pet.

How about social aggression/rank aggression, for example - the dog that would love to be top of the heap and says "oh yeah? Gonna make me?" when someone tells it do so something it would prefer not to do. This type of temperament can make a dog far "too much dog" for a novice/pet home, without making it a nervous dog or a poor working candidate.

As for the poster who said that police dogs are assessed only on prey drive and not aggression - if that were true then we could use solid nerved greyhounds as patrol dogs!

It was I WAZZATXOLO and I said

No Police dogs are NOT asessed on their agression its the drive In fact overly agressive dogs dont make good Police Dogs !

I said drive which is a different kettle of fish to prey drive too ( research that as well! )

:D

Anyhow what would I know !!!!! Gee whizz there are so many experts and a few spurts lol. My comments were made from personal experience from a Senior Police Dog Trainer, but what would he know anyhow !

I stand by my initial comments and I am sure if you research YOU will find they are spot on!!

Good luck with your mass debate

Wazzalot, you are saying the same thing as Staranais -

staranais has grouped drives that are often constituent of aggression under the term 'aggression' + prey.

A dog's sense of defence, territory, rank determines its propensity to exhibit aggression (in the context being discussed here).

To say that aggression is not important in a certain working dog makes no sense

as aggression is the physical expression of the aggregate (defence, territory, rank) + prey

If a dog is "too aggressive" and so unsuccessful as a police dog working dog or whatever

it is because the dog has inadequate nerve

aka imbalance of constituent motivations that produce an 'aggressive' response,

Failure as a police/working dog is because of inadequate drive / nerve = too much or too little 'aggression'

Success as a police/working dog is because of ideal drive / nerve = ideal level of 'aggression'

ETA:

some farmers from non english seakling background use the words 'crazy and 'tough' when describing an ideal type of LGD temperament that they need for open range.

'crazy' means the dog wil do its job defending and protecting the stock. To be 'crazy' [or 'aggressive' or 'tough']

a working ASD in open range needs strong sense of defence, rank, territory.

once again different words, describing the same aggregate drive response.

Edited June 16, 2010 by lilli

[Nekhbet]

integraguard use Von Forell lines. The problem with australia is 1) we have little to no ringsport/KNVP 2) Schutzhund is hard to do if legal at all in your state

if it was as common and required as Europe then we would see more Sch titles. A dogs working life proves its worth and thats what we go on here sometimes. Have a look at other working kennels, not many of their dogs would have Australian working dog titles - doesnt mean they're rubbish. There are many famous working dogs in australia, not all have titles.

[K9Nev]

Are they???, can't see any working titles on them or professional critiques to confirm that other than someone's opinion???. Have a look at the critiques on proven dogs like Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory etc and tell us how those dogs lacked nerve and working ability???. These dogs represent the true working GSD and IMHO are the models we should be working towards. These dogs also had ample aggression and not too many have been produced here that have matched them let alone improved on their traits. smile.gif

:D So you want people to read critiques/descriptions (someones opinion) on Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory but then you dismiss critiques/descriptions on the dogs listed in the advertisement...interesting.

Personally, I believe the critique from registered judges with multi titled dogs has a bit more substance than the critque of a group of guys doing bitework on essentially untrained dogs if your are looking for a good balanced animal. I am not saying that a good dog cannot be determined without official titles and critiques because they can of course, but anyone can portray their dog as a "ripper mate" without formal classification when they are self promoted. It boils down then to taking someone's word for a dog's quality or not.............have one of those "ripper" dogs in my backyard Jeff :D

[K9Nev]

Have a look at the critiques on proven dogs like Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory etc and tell us how those dogs lacked nerve and working ability???. These dogs represent the true working GSD and IMHO are the models we should be working towards. These dogs also had ample aggression and not too many have been produced here that have matched them let alone improved on their traits.

I couldn't comment on Integraguard as I don't know them, from what I can tell they train in the KNPV style. I was commenting on the use of "aggression" in the ad, which you seem to agree is OK (based on the above critique). You might be interested to know that they have based their breeding on Yultzen and Von Forell dogs, similar to your latest pup (and very similar to my bitch), and that Fax also features in these lines.

In fact, the litter in question is line-bred 4-4 on Fax!

I am referring to the "aggression" concept in promotion of the working GSD as the dog's major essential trait. In other words, do we need to be breeding genetically extreme aggression to do the job???. Ok, extreme aggression........the dog lights up fast, bite's with a full hard grip and is sharp as a tack.........ok great, the dog will be a fine worker. On the flip side, the dog wants to bite everyone, threat or not, comes back up the leash at the handler on a regular basis, and in reactive aggression (defence/fight drive) the dog is foggy headed and the handler has little control. What real use is a dog like that seriously I ask???.

The dog couldn't pass a Schutzhund BH as it's shapness and aggression cannot be tamed enough to get through a traffic test without a reaction...........a GSD that fails a BH in reference to a GSD breed quality test is not a good GSD, working dog or not. The classical working dog's I mentioned previously passed those tests.........are we saying those dog's were not aggressive enough or able to work effectively and needed to be more "extreme"???.

[Aidan3]

I am referring to the "aggression" concept in promotion of the working GSD as the dog's major essential trait. In other words, do we need to be breeding genetically extreme aggression to do the job???.

No, and as I have said earlier, I don't know of too many breeders who think that is the case either. Certainly the ad in question does not suggest that these dogs are extreme in aggression, quite the opposite, just that they are not suitable for pet homes. Whilst aggression might have a part to play in this (if not competently handled), the bigger issue is that working line dogs necessarily have more drive than most pet homes can provide outlets for.

The dog couldn't pass a Schutzhund BH as it's shapness and aggression cannot be tamed enough to get through a traffic test without a reaction...........a GSD that fails a BH in reference to a GSD breed quality test is not a good GSD, working dog or not. The classical working dog's I mentioned previously passed those tests....

The litter in question is a line-breeding on one of those classic working dogs you mentioned, and very closely related to your own pup. Passing a BH is no guarantee that anything that dog produces will fit in well in a pet home.

[K9Nev]

Anyhow what would I know !!!!! Gee whizz there are so many experts and a few spurts lol. My comments were made from personal experience from a Senior Police Dog Trainer, but what would he know anyhow !

I stand by my initial comments and I am sure if you research YOU will find they are spot on!!

Good luck with your mass debate

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression?

It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression".

I bit of caution to be exercised with "security dogs" as they have no official benchmark. Some security officers are often using pet GSD's & Rottie's and take them for a stroll around on patrol???. There is no "official" security dog qualification as such in the private sector. Unless the dog is an official police or military type of service/security dog that has undergone and passed a designated training system and proven it's worth cannot necessarily be regarded as a proper security dog.

[Kavik]

Have a look at the critiques on proven dogs like Fax vom Grenzganger, Dares z Geradonu, Dolf z Zakovy Hory etc and tell us how those dogs lacked nerve and working ability???. These dogs represent the true working GSD and IMHO are the models we should be working towards. These dogs also had ample aggression and not too many have been produced here that have matched them let alone improved on their traits.

I couldn't comment on Integraguard as I don't know them, from what I can tell they train in the KNPV style. I was commenting on the use of "aggression" in the ad, which you seem to agree is OK (based on the above critique). You might be interested to know that they have based their breeding on Yultzen and Von Forell dogs, similar to your latest pup (and very similar to my bitch), and that Fax also features in these lines.

In fact, the litter in question is line-bred 4-4 on Fax!

I am referring to the "aggression" concept in promotion of the working GSD as the dog's major essential trait. In other words, do we need to be breeding genetically extreme aggression to do the job???. Ok, extreme aggression........the dog lights up fast, bite's with a full hard grip and is sharp as a tack.........ok great, the dog will be a fine worker. On the flip side, the dog wants to bite everyone, threat or not, comes back up the leash at the handler on a regular basis, and in reactive aggression (defence/fight drive) the dog is foggy headed and the handler has little control. What real use is a dog like that seriously I ask???.

The dog couldn't pass a Schutzhund BH as it's shapness and aggression cannot be tamed enough to get through a traffic test without a reaction...........a GSD that fails a BH in reference to a GSD breed quality test is not a good GSD, working dog or not. The classical working dog's I mentioned previously passed those tests.........are we saying those dog's were not aggressive enough or able to work effectively and needed to be more "extreme"???.

The ad in question certainly does not state or suggest 'extreme aggression' Just that the dogs will be strong, confident, driven and better suited to working homes than as companions. I looked at the whole ad and not just the bit quoted at the beginning and it seems pretty well written to me.

[Kavik]

Von Forell is advertising a litter there too

Also stating they breed for Schutzhund, law enforcement, police

[DerRottweiler]

Anyhow what would I know !!!!! Gee whizz there are so many experts and a few spurts lol. My comments were made from personal experience from a Senior Police Dog Trainer, but what would he know anyhow !

I stand by my initial comments and I am sure if you research YOU will find they are spot on!!

Good luck with your mass debate

I'm sorry then, what type of "drive" were you talking about if you don't mean prey drive, and don't mean aggression?

It's interesting to hear different people's views on what working dogs "should" be like. But when it comes down to it, and no offence intended to anyone here, I agree it does make sense to take the word of people with real life experience in handling police & security dogs. And the ones I have talked to appear to have no hesitation in decribing their dogs as having "aggression".

I will email the Poilce Dog handler and post his reply! I do hope that will suffice as experience! I have no interest in this breed just wanted to correct the notion of all Police Dogs must have agression ( Which is not how they are trained!)

lol, funny, because a police dog trainer/handler is commenting in this thread all along....

And all of you saying the dogs will show too much aggression, no idea where you got that from, the ad also says balance, meaning it is in-check with other drives, making a complete working dog.

[DerRottweiler]

integraguard use Von Forell lines. The problem with australia is 1) we have little to no ringsport/KNVP 2) Schutzhund is hard to do if legal at all in your state

if it was as common and required as Europe then we would see more Sch titles. A dogs working life proves its worth and thats what we go on here sometimes. Have a look at other working kennels, not many of their dogs would have Australian working dog titles - doesnt mean they're rubbish. There are many famous working dogs in australia, not all have titles.

True that.

Stupid Eagle Heights club.......they've been full since forever lol.

[vendo]

Before there were show lines and working line dogs there were just dogs. Working line GSD’s and show line GSD’s there were just GSD’s

Today you have the show line dogs in all sorts of breeds here in Australia a lot of breeders would say that they have better conforming dogs now than 15 20 years ago, but are enouncing behaviour problems in their dogs they never had before. Those that say that is not true are lying.

In many other countries SCH is an accepted sport and a vital part of registering a dog. Here the ANKC will recognise doggy dancing but not SCH. The problem is not with the ad it is with the interpretation of drives and how it is a natural makeup of a dog’s character. Good discussion though.

Edited June 16, 2010 by vendo

[K9Nev]

I am referring to the "aggression" concept in promotion of the working GSD as the dog's major essential trait. In other words, do we need to be breeding genetically extreme aggression to do the job???.

No, and as I have said earlier, I don't know of too many breeders who think that is the case either. Certainly the ad in question does not suggest that these dogs are extreme in aggression, quite the opposite, just that they are not suitable for pet homes. Whilst aggression might have a part to play in this (if not competently handled), the bigger issue is that working line dogs necessarily have more drive than most pet homes can provide outlets for.

The dog couldn't pass a Schutzhund BH as it's shapness and aggression cannot be tamed enough to get through a traffic test without a reaction...........a GSD that fails a BH in reference to a GSD breed quality test is not a good GSD, working dog or not. The classical working dog's I mentioned previously passed those tests....

The litter in question is a line-breeding on one of those classic working dogs you mentioned, and very closely related to your own pup. Passing a BH is no guarantee that anything that dog produces will fit in well in a pet home.

Some have mentioned the breeder and litter in this debate, but personally, I don't know them or be inclined to critisize their dogs or practices as such, from my perspective I am looking at a general overview of advertising extreme aggression being the supposed ultimate of a working GSD breeding. As a man stopping yard dog I agree that extreme aggression and sharpness would make a fantastic yard worker, but IMHO, that's about where it ends. I don't believe that the GSD is the best breed for that purpose either, but that's another story.

Offshoots in the ideal GSD temperament are plentiful from soft weakness to over aggression and everything in between with too many excuses and reasons why "balance" is missed. This breeding is only for pet homes and the other is only for working/security homes are not "balanced" GSD's as they should be, but extremes at each end. A "good" GSD regardless if the breed may be unsuitable for some people, should be able to do it all, and a companion animal is one of those roles.

It doesn't and shouldn't mean that a dog capable of security/protection work can't be a pet. If can't be a loyal and trustworthy pet at least with it's primary handler, there is something far wrong with that breeding IMHO