Dol Breed Listings

[wolfgirl]

Just reading through the dol listings for upcoming litters and was very disappointed to read one that advertised this in their ad

These should prove to be incredible working dogs, with natural drive, aggression and balance.

Should we be promoting dogs in this fashion considering all the new laws they are trying to bring in, I am disappointed to read this as aggression is not a natural part of the GSD nature and shouldn't be promoted in this way

Didn't think I would read something like that on a Dol listing, maybe Trading Post or somewhere and I understand people pay to advertise here on Dol but should their ads be scrutinized more as I thought the aim was to promote healthy and well balanced dogs owned by responsible people.

I hate to see breeds promoted in the wrong way and that goes for any breed

[huski]

I am a total GSD noob, but don't working dogs like PP dogs or police dogs need to have a level of aggression of some kind?

ETA: When it says natural aggression maybe they are referring to the dog's fight/combat drive or something??

Edited June 14, 2010 by huski

[Nevafollo]

Shoot a PM off to Troy, I dont think adds are approved before being publish (could be wrong thou) and Im sure Troy doesnt have time to check them all so if you let him know about it I'm sure he would do something.

ETA was just checking the DOL opages and this is a good example of a much more sensible add.... Working bloodlines are not showing lines they are used for schutzhund work,police & service dogs,protection work ,sporting & make a great family pet you will need to know some basic obedience and Must have some experience with large breed dogs and have fully fenced section.

Edited June 14, 2010 by sammy_ballerina

[wolfgirl]

I am a total GSD noob, but don't working dogs like PP dogs or police dogs need to have a level of aggression of some kind?

ETA: When it says natural aggression maybe they are referring to the dog's fight/combat drive or something??

I don't have a problem with dogs with high drive and worded that way it is the word AGGRESSION that bother me and the fact that alot of new people looking at the ads will associate GSD's with aggressive tendencies

[huski]

I don't have a problem with dogs with high drive and worded that way it is the word AGGRESSION that bother me and the fact that alot of new people looking at the ads will associate GSD's with aggressive tendencies

Ah ok, I've heard people refer to civil aggression when it comes to working dogs, hopefully someone with working GSD experience will come along and clarify what that means/entails.

[Staranais]

Perhaps they are being responsible & honest, and trying to make clear that these are working dogs, suitable for police or security work or bitesports, and not suitable as pets?

As far as I'm aware, many working dog people want their dog to have more than just good (prey) drive - prey drive is necessary, but not sufficient, for some working dogs.

[Cordelia]

The ad is for working dogs... poorly worded fair enoug, but anyone looking for a working dog will understand the ad... it isn't aimed at the pet buying public... and they are advertising their breed for what they are intended... work.

[Tilly]

Definately working dogs ... maybe they could have thought of a better word but seriously these are not pets they are advertising. They are advertising for the "serious" working dogs.

I have no problems with the ad ...

[wolfgirl]

Don't get me wrong I understand it is a ad for security dogs but I just don't like to see the word Aggression used, I think it could have been worded effectively without that being said

[Staranais]

I don't know, I'd rather they were honest about what type of dogs they were selling, lots of problems can come from placing working dogs into homes that don't suit them.

What would you have used as a synonym for "aggression"? If these are civil security line GSD, then I can't think of many ways of saying the same thing but still being clear & honest about what the dogs are capable of.

[wolfgirl]

I don't know, I'd rather they were honest about what type of dogs they were selling, lots of problems can come from placing working dogs into homes that don't suit them.

What would you have used as a synonym for "aggression"? If these are civil security line GSD, then I can't think of many ways of saying the same thing but still being clear & honest about what the dogs are capable of.

There is another ad from a well known working line who words their ads very well, to me anyone looking at the first ad would they realize that these dogs if trained to what is stated would have to follow the DD law, not everyone is conversed in that area and I honestly think with all the new dogs laws they are trying to introduce the wording is poor.

Maybe not for the faint heartded would be a good phrase

[Kavik]

I've seen plenty of working line GSD advertised with similar wording.

[Staranais]

Maybe not for the faint heartded would be a good phrase

Hmmm, I don't know. I can see your point, and agree that breeders shouldn't advertise their dogs as out-of-control landsharks, but I also don't think euphemisms really do the breed any good either. Even saying "not for the faint hearted" doesn't really give the same picture as saying "these dogs are not good pets, you will need to keep 100% control at all times if you don't want them to bite people" (not sure if these dogs are in this class - and not all working lines are like that by any means - but some working dog lines are not at all social).

But hey, each to their own.

[K9Nev]

I have a working line GSD from Yultzen/Vonforrel lines which goes back to Fax vom Grenzganger and Kuran van Teikerhook which are similar lines to the add in question. I agree that perhaps the wording of the add could have been better formatted, but "aggression" refers to the defence drives of the dog in fighting situation, it doesn't mean a killer on the end of the leash wanting attack everyone. There are dogs like that which are generally fear aggressive with an unbalanced temperament that light up fast in defence, but that is NOT what a balanced working dog temperament is about, although some use these types in security being easy to train for constant nastiness, but dogs of this nature would never pass a Schutzhund test or be reliable in police work etc. Spooky reactive GSD's I have seen more in unstable showlines destined for the pet market, more so than in working lines.

Controlling prey drive is the most difficult trait to handle in my dog as he will chase moving objects to try and capture by nature which would probably lead to aggression with the caught object in a fight, but my dog doesn't display aggression whatsoever in normal circumstances, he's friendly, not the slightest bit dog aggressive, high pain threshold, doesn't spook, just takes the environment in his stride, infact he's the most stable reliable pet I have owned, great with kids and doesn't perceive non threatening situations as necessity to react like some can do with limited nerve strength.

The difference IMHO when speaking of "good aggression" in a working dog is that they will take on the fight with defence drive trained in that fashion when challenged. Most dogs retreat when challenged to fight, run away if the going gets too tough or their life feels threatened. The good working dog doesn't retreat, the higher the challenge, the harder they will fight is probably the simplest explanation. Without civil aggression in the dog's traits for working purposes, as an example, if someone came over your back fence with a baseball bat and started swinging at the dog. Without a civil aggression trait and the dog was hit with the bat, it would dance around barking and probably run away fearing for it's life. The civil dog hit with the bat, will fire it in defence drive to fight the the guy with bat and win the challenge. The dog has the nerve, confidence and aggression to take the challenge on.

There are plenty of probably better ways to describe what "aggression" in working dog's mean, but I hope this makes it a bit clearer as to what it means I am sure that some more experienced working folk than I am could add to this.

[K9Nev]

Maybe not for the faint heartded would be a good phrase

Hmmm, I don't know. I can see your point, and agree that breeders shouldn't advertise their dogs as out-of-control landsharks, but I also don't think euphemisms really do the breed any good either. Even saying "not for the faint hearted" doesn't really give the same picture as saying "these dogs are not good pets, you will need to keep 100% control at all times if you don't want them to bite people" (not sure if these dogs are in this class - and not all working lines are like that by any means - but some working dog lines are not at all social).But hey, each to their own.

Unless the dog has been trained to be suspicious, I wouldn't call an unsociable dog by nature a balanced breeding. I would think a breeding like that was overly sharp and border on nerve instability???. A properly bred GSD, regardless of lines, should be able to fulfill the role of a companion animal

[Staranais]

The sire is described by the owners on their webpage as dominant & civil aggressive, the dam is described as sharp and civil, and the breeders say they're breeding for a hard dog suited for security & police work. That's just not necessarily an ideal companion animal for 99% of the public, I'd think. Probably an amazing animal in the right hands.

[K9Nev]

The sire is described by the owners on their webpage as dominant & civil aggressive, the dam is described as sharp and civil, and the breeders say they're breeding for a hard dog suited for security & police work. That's just not necessarily an ideal companion animal for 99% of the public, I'd think. Probably an amazing animal in the right hands.

Trouble is though, the "sharp and civil" interpretation is often incorrectly defined. The best of the high end working GSD's worldwide all have Schutzhund titles, which means they have to pass the BH. Sharp dogs fail and don't make it to first base, which ideally are not good dogs at all. Sharp and civil I don't think is a good cocktail for anything other than a yard dog IMHO

Edited June 14, 2010 by K9Nev

[Staranais]

I think these dogs are bred for work, not sport - I don't think they have dogsport titles. I suspect if you contacted the breeders, they wouldn't be terribly happy with these dogs being sold as pets.

They may be describing their dogs incorrectly as civil & sharp, but they seem to be pretty knowledgeable men. Of course, even really knowledgeable trainers can't necessarily agree on the definition or desirability of terms like "defense" or "suspicion" or "fight drive" - there's just been a huge debate between some very experienced trainers & breeders about that very subject over on the specialist canines forum in the last few days. I don't know if you're a member, but it made very interesting reading (once you got past the personal attacks, as on most forums!)

[...]

Thats what they were originally bred to be, not a soft pet. I don't see the problem.. a good breeder isn't going to let an irresponsible person who just wants a 'mean' dog to look tough buy a puppy.

[K9Nev]

I think these dogs are bred for work, not sport - I don't think they have dogsport titles. I suspect if you contacted the breeders, they wouldn't be terribly happy with these dogs being sold as pets.

They may be describing their dogs incorrectly as civil & sharp, but they seem to be pretty knowledgeable men. Of course, even really knowledgeable trainers can't necessarily agree on the definition or desirability of terms like "defense" or "suspicion" or "fight drive" - there's just been a huge debate between some very experienced trainers & breeders about that very subject over on the specialist canines forum in the last few days. I don't know if you're a member, but it made very interesting reading (once you got past the personal attacks, as on most forums!)

I will have a read on that site, thanks Staranais

Civil drive, social drive, sharpness, all have varying interpretations with different people especially amoungst the highly experienced which makes it difficult to understand I have seen some sharp dogs tested which are dogs that treat everything with suspicion and light up easily with stranger aggression, dog aggression etc. Dogs that can't be walked in public without them firing up aggressively towards anyone that comes within 20 meters of the dog and handler which some consider were top level civil drives for security and protection work. All of those dogs like that I saw tested were weak as water when pressured and were actually fear aggressive and unstable in nerve. They looked the part and one especially I remember in muzzle work peed itself and layed down, it was petrified under pressure, but was the toughest looking dog at the test session

Some of the better dogs that had real aggression under pressure were fairly layed back in a relaxed state and just looked like the average pet standing around with their handler, some of those were police dogs in training but with a calm and confident disposition.

Edited June 14, 2010 by K9Nev