Deleted

[Steve]

So despite knowing everything you do from your time as a vet nurse and pet shop employee and your time on DOL (I've seen your posts) you deliberately created a litter of unregistered and not health tested puppies? The only xrays that count are those assessed by vets qualified to hip and elbow score BTW. You did this knowing all you do, just asking for those that think you were clueless.

Hey, there's others here who are doing the same thing - just pop into the Aussie thread!

where?

[Rebanne]

I bred her to create wonderful loving pets for my family and friends. Yes I actually do believe her, and the father, to be a wonderful example of the breed, and would not have bred her otherwise - but that's hardly the point. These pups aren't for showing or breeding, they are pets. I know where every single one of them is going, and I'll get to watch them grow and bring so much love to their new families as my dogs have to mine.

My puppies are not x-breeds or inbreds, and despite what you may think about the x-rays I've had done, I believe them to show that both Rei and Ben's hips and elbows are in good condition and would not have bred them if they weren't.

I'm really not sure why I'm continuing to post as I know no matter what I say it's not going to be good enough for any of you.

so your family and friends are going to be ok if their wonderful pets have health issues in the future because you didn't do any health checks? something you should have done regardless of being registered or not. As a former vet nurse surely you would have seen the impact on both dogs and owners when health issues arise? You didn't test for PRA which can cause blindness? How sad.

I hope your puppies, for their sake, remain in good health. It's not their fault they are here.

and for what it's worth, all my dogs are pets first, everything else comes second.

[Steve]

Over 50 known genetic diseases in the lab - most of which there are no tests for - how do you know anything about whether they are likely to have any of these or carry them?

Thats why we have registered papers.

Canine hip dysplasia (CHD): is a skeletal problem, an abnormal development of the hip joint where the head of the femur does not fit snugly into the pelvic socket. It is characterized by a shallow acetabulum (the "cup" of the hip joint) and changes in the shape of the femoral head (the "ball" of the hip joint). These changes may occur due to excessive looseness in the hip joint. Hip dysplasia can exist with or without clinical signs. When dogs exhibit symptoms of hip dysplasia they usually are in pain and lame on one or both rear legs. Severe arthritis can develop as a result of the malformation of the hip joint and this results in pain as the disease progresses. Effective arthritis treatment More information. See the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals OFA See the University of Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program PennHIP You don't have to wait until your dog exhibits symptoms. You can take steps now to minimize the chances your dog will suffer arthritic pain due to hip dysplasia. Treating your pet's impending or existing arthritis.

Gastric Torsion - or Bloat (Gastric dilatation volvulus GDV): This condition is caused by a twisting of the stomach and thus trapping the stomach contents and gases resulting in a rapid swelling of the abdomen accompanied by pain and eventual death if untreated. It is a top priority emergency with immediate veterinarian action required. This is a predicament most common in large deep chested breeds. Anyone owning a deep chested breed, susceptible to bloat should be prepared by recording and posting the exact emergency procedures for the veterinary hospital they go to - who to call after hours, how to get to emergency clinics or alternative facilities and what payment arrangements those facilities will require. More information.

Retinal Dysplasia: This condition is an abnormal development of the retina. A retinoscopic examination can usually reveal retina problems. More information.

Muscular Dystrophy: Autosomal Recessive Muscular Dystrophy or ARMD. This condition is a progressive degeneration of skeletal muscles. A blood test, electromyography and muscular biopsies can definitively identify muscular dystrophy. ARMD is not usually fatal.

Elbow Dysplasia (ununited anconeal process): Due perhaps to improper development (different growth rates) of the three bones making up the elbow, the joint is lax or loose and in mildly affected dogs leads to painful arthritis. Whereas in severly affected dogs, osteochondritis dissecans (OCD), fragmented medial coronoid processes and united anconeal processes can result from the stress in the joint. More information. Treatments involve surgical correction if possible, or medical management using asprin and other anti-inflammatory drugs. See effective Osteoarthritis treatment.

Cataracts: As with humans, dogs can get cataracts, but the presence of cataracts in young dogs, called juvenile cataracts, have a hereditary foundation. Cataracts are diagnosed by means of an ophthalmoscopic exam. If the dog is in good health, cataracts can be surgically removed with usually good results. More information.

Osteochondritis dissecans (OCD): is a degeneration of bone underlying the cartilage layer of joints. It is a condition often seen in young fast growing dogs of the larger breeds. X-rays of suspected joints are often inconclusive. OCD usually appears during the growth phase of a young dog, usually six to nine months of age. OCD can affect the shoulder, ankle or elbow joint. It is painful and the dog limps. Physical impacts, like jumping off high objects and being overweight are contributing factors.

Complete rest and limited playful activities for several weeks, often difficult with a young puppy, is effective treatment, or surgical removal of torn away cartilage pieces, is probably the fastest treatment. Controlling diet is important in fast growing breeds. More information.

Progressive Retinal Atrophy (PRA): is a family of diseases all involving the gradual deterioration of the retina. It is diagnosed by a retinoscopic exam or by means of an electroretinogram (ERG). Early in the disease, affected dogs become nightblind and lack the ability to see in dim light; later on daytime vision also fails. As their vision deteriorates, affected dogs adapt to their handicap very well, as long as their environment remains constant. Certain breeds are affected early in life, whereas in other breeds, PRA develops much later in onset. More information.

Other Documented Problems: Existing congenital and hereditary diseases - non prioritized.

3, 7, 9, 9a, 10, 22, 40, 42, 59, 68, 77, 78, 85, 88, 89, 94, 95, 103, 109, 121, 122, 129a, 147, 148, 149, 152, 158, 159a, 160, 166, 197, 204a, 206a, 221, 221a, 244, 245, 256, 258, 269, 270, 276, 282, 315, 330,

[labsrule]

I bred her to create wonderful loving pets for my family and friends. Yes I actually do believe her, and the father, to be a wonderful example of the breed, and would not have bred her otherwise - but that's hardly the point. These pups aren't for showing or breeding, they are pets. I know where every single one of them is going, and I'll get to watch them grow and bring so much love to their new families as my dogs have to mine.

My puppies are not x-breeds or inbreds, and despite what you may think about the x-rays I've had done, I believe them to show that both Rei and Ben's hips and elbows are in good condition and would not have bred them if they weren't.

I'm really not sure why I'm continuing to post as I know no matter what I say it's not going to be good enough for any of you.

Unbelievable Your own lab girl was bred by a disreputable breeder who didn't given a shit about their pups by selling them to a petshop, so I seriously doubt any form of health testing was done on her parents, let alone proper puppy raising practices so you cannot make claims that your dog is a wonderful example of the breed. Knowing all you do and having the experience that you do, makes this intentional breeding of a lab with a questionable background even more appalling :D . So much damage done to my beautiful breed by people like yourself ;)

[shortstep]

Kazzie,

I do not think you have done the worst thing on earth, however I do think that you can do better and will want to do better. It is your choice, but I do believe you when you say you want to do the right thing.

As Steve points out, labs can have more than a few diseases.

1. I think you should take some of the sales proceeds and use it to DNA test the parents for PRA and any other DNA tests for labs, this should be done now.

2. I think it would be a very good idea if you took the parents and the pups at 7 weeks for a certified eye exam. Copies to pup buyers.

3. You say had xrays taken, you should be able to have an ortho look at these xrays and write an evaluation, copies of this on both parents should be given to the new owners.

4. You need to educate yourself and then your owners in writing on how to raise pups for the first year to reduce their risk of HD ED and OCD. This means correct diet and calcium levels and proper controlled exercise.

5. You say the parents are pedigreed, have you contacted the breeder/s in an attempt to get a health history of the parents? Have you looked for other relatives to get health history? If not then you need to find someone who can help you do this, and all information needs to be given the pup buyers. I was under the impression that pet stores did not give out reg papers with their dogs??? So there was no way to trace them back to the breeder?

I am sure there will be other constructive measures that any breeder of labs normally does to assure they have done all they can to breed healthly pups (this is not my breed). It is your choice to make up this part. I believe you will do it and we can and will help you along the right path.

Edited June 14, 2010 by shortstep

[Jaz_83]

When i began my quest to find the right puppy i found that more than half of the registered breeders i dealt with were money hungry rogues that raised the dogs in appalling conditions. They were imotionless and money hungry, i visited several backyard breeders also, all of whom raised the puppies in a loving family environment (i understand this is not always the case)

I ended up getting a puppy from a registered and ethical breeder with an excellent reputation. I met the owner of the bitch and got to spend time with the bitch prior to the arrival of the litter. I saw that she was homed in a loving caring environment which is a hell of a lot more than i can say for MANY of the registered yet unethical breeders/farmers/profiteers that i dealt with in my search. Having researched the breed i was interested in i found that i felt more comfortable with a health tested dog specific to the conditions of the breed.

This is something the Kazzie may wish to take into account if there will be a future litter from her dogs as it gives peace of mind to the families the dogs are going to and also gives you a clear conscience knowing possible conditions experienced by the breed do not exist within your litter.

I guess what i make of this thread is that the OP went in a little blind but quite clearly had no ill intentions. It appears to me that she would have been open to CONSTRUCTIVE criticism if she had not been shut down so rudely which may have resulted in an educational experience to allow her to do it correctly in the future if she sees fit.

Although most are looking out for the breed standard there is such a thing as overkill. Rather than blasting prospective breeders into the weeds try a more proactive approach. Having a go for posting in the wrong section of a forum is lso rediculous, its a discussion forum we are not exactly rewriting the bible.

Have fun with your puppies kazzie and be sure to take the constructive criticism onboard for any future breeding as to do it correctly. Leave the cynical gibberish by the wayside.

[huski]

I actually thought some people in this thread were being a bit harsh until it was realised Kazzie has been a member of this forum for some time, has posted a fair bit and should know better than to BYB a pet store puppy.

Ignorance I understand, some people just don't know better. But those who DO know better but do it anyway? There's no excuse!

[stormie]

I agree Huski.

Liebhunde:

I would never apologise to the High Horse Brigade....

Youve been done over by the best of them Kazzie....but I think youve come through fairly unscathed. I admire your dedication to your bitch and whelps....not always seen among the Registered Brigade as we all well know. And the pups produced by some of them should not have seen the light of day....not saying there arnt excellent people breeding under a reg prefix though. From personal experience...I have a thoroughbred giant breed..from an unregistered breeder..shock horror...saw her in the Trading Post...put me in the stocks and pelt me with rotton fruit!!!...however she has a gentle temp, good with other dogs and small animals, has never had a

serious sick day in her life and is accepting of other people, and shes a good looker....despite her mysterious background..some of which..but not all ..I know. Compared to others of her breed that have come from reg breeders..that I know of..including dogs owned by my own family..who have just suddenly died...and others throughout the breed which suffer from chronic physical and temperament problems...shes doing just fine. Ill also say I got my lovely girl before I became a member of this forum and learnt many things...

Liebhunde - how can you criticize Registered breeders (not all, but some) like you just did, saying how some are producing terrible examples of the breed with many known health problems, yet ADMIRE the OP for breeding a litter of pups, with no knowledge about the parents breeding background or health status? It's quite possible the OP has produced a litter which will be rife with health problems.

Of course there are some terrible Reg breeders out there, many of which are nothing but puppy farmers and I'm sure there have been some lovely natured dogs bred by BYB who naively bred their dogs together because they had a lovely nature. I've seen some beautiful dogs, one in particular, who was BYB and whilst she didn't fit the Dane breed standard, had an amazing temperament. Unfortunately, she died very young of cancer. So maybe you're just lucky your girl has been so healthy, because I could name a few BYB Danes who haven't been so lucky.

But at the end of the day, this particular breed has many known health problems and they are VERY real. There is every chance one or some of these puppies could have one of those problems. Some of these pups may end up with HD and be barely unable to walk by 2yo. Or they may go blind. Or both.

Yes, I think the OP got a bashing before anything was known. But I'm sure the OP is also smart enough to know what she was doing.

I don't support any type of unethical breeding, regardless or whether the breeder is registered or not. There are plenty of lovely natured dogs in the pounds and rescue needing homes, so I don't see the need for anyone to be producing puppies willy nilly, particularly when they have little knowledge on breeding and genetics.

And for what it's worth, I actually think it's cruel breeding any dogs together without performing health testing, whether they are Reg breeders or not. Bringing puppies into the world which may end up with crippling diseases, knowing there was something you could have done, but didn't, is nothing but cruelty.

Edited June 14, 2010 by stormie

[Dogsfevr]

the sad reality is this will occur over & over again as pet shops sell unsterilized dogs to same minded people to continue breeding with no clue on lines,quality of the dogs & not be bound by any COE for what the produce.

As for the papers i wouldnt believe anything there.

I remember a case here where a pet shop got hold of some papers & placed them in the window stating they where the parents Lets just say the Pet shop didnt fair well when the breeder was informed & could prove the papers did not match the pups.

As for a vet nurses, of late the worst foor waniting to do unethical breeding are vets & vet nurses because remember many of these pet shops have vets who support them

[_PL_]

Oct 8, 2008 Kazzie_81 the OP's old user ID

I'm not agains X-Breeds! Not at all. I am against people breeding unhealthy dogs. I am against people pretending a dog is something it's not! I am against people breeding and not caring for the pups, selling them to early, breeding too often, etc etc. Those people who decide to have one litter before they desex their dogs - so what? As long as they do everything in their power to make sure pups are healthy, happy and go to good homes, then I don't see a problem with it

lame

but nice to know it's so easy to find lifetime quality homes for all the byb dogs out there - rescuers can relax now.

[Kirty]

Perhaps people like Kazzie should spend a day at my work, meeting owners with dogs blind from PRA at 2 or 3 years old. To think that these problems could be prevented with a DNA test breaks my heart.

[Liebhunde]

Stormie if you read my post again you will see I said I admired the OPs 'dedication' to her bitch and whelps..not that she had produced them, I must make it clear that I do support pure breds and ethical registered breeders. I will never support the flaming we always see in this forum when its not completely deserved.

Despite the very admirable efforts dedicated breeders put into their chosen breeds,,the fact that they can produce unhealthy dogs despite their best efforts is a well known fact.....so it goes both ways. I am not saying dont bother with the practices of registered breeding at all..Im simply saying registered breeders can and do have the same results as unregistered ones. The fact that your pup came from a well respected registered breeder doesnt mean you will have a dog without problems....why did my sisters well bred girl ..with champion lines behind her for over 30 years..looked after and cared for with no expense spared in every way..just die in her sleep at under three years of age....yes she was very unlucky....and it seems ....I am very lucky.

[huski]

Im simply saying registered breeders can and do have the same results as unregistered ones.

Yes but the difference is, is that the ethical registered breeders are doing everything they can to produce healthy dogs, and if a problem does come up they will work to eradicate it from their breeding program. The same can not be said for BYBers like Kazzie.

Edited June 14, 2010 by huski

[di_dee1]

The term "flogging a dead horse" comes to mind in this thread as the OP has been hounded away.

[Pete.the.dog]

30 minutes of reading later and I now remember why I try to steer clear of general..

Anyone who wants someone new to flame/someone to give some advice to - go see my thread - not as interesting as this one so I haven't had any replies yet

http://www.dolforums.com.au/index.php?showtopic=198340

at my shameless plug

[Cody]

95% of people here are great Kazzie.

This "flaming" has nothing on what I have seen here in the past though.

You make mistakes, learn form them.

[huski]

Seriously Cody? You read the whole thread, and still find nothing wrong with someone BYBing a pet store dog when they knew better? Like I said earlier, ignorance I understand. Knowingly doing the wrong thing though? Not a chance.

Edited June 14, 2010 by huski