What Would You Do?

[Dogsfevr]

What about importing and quarantine? Anyone have any stories to tell in that regard? Although, this would be a really expensive way to go for a pet!!

Yep spent nearly $8000 for a dog that is now in a pet home ,spayed.

All health tests done but a total lemon.

[Erny]

If the breed has such few breeders as you say then you have to start somewhere.

Huh? So start from a possible (unknown) bad bunch and try to work up and over problems from there, if and when they start to crop up? And by which time there are matings on matings? When there is good (tested) breeding stock OS? I'm afraid I do not understand the logic in that. And whilst these breeders are trying to work up and over problems, their puppy owners have to deal with the financial and heart ache of issues that develop?

Of course, if every one is lucky, there will be nothing wrong. But refusing to test to ensure there isn't? I don't understand why any breeder would want to put all their hard work in without knowing what they are dealing with. The only thing I can think of as to why they wouldn't test is that they don't want to know if there is anything wrong - they'd be at least morally obliged to do something about it, wouldn't they? Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick, but it sounds like head in the sand to me.

That we have so much available to us now - the world is so much smaller - yet not want to take advantage of something to start of right and continue right is a puzzlement.

Edited June 13, 2010 by Erny

[shortstep]

I wish emigrating was an option Arrow!!....That must really make me a crazy dog lady!!

My next dog will be a pet, as well as an obedience/rally-o/agility dog. I teach obedience classes, so they would also become my 'demo' dog. I know that many of you really want to know the breed, but I will not disclose for reasons I have already mentioned plus more. I am not saying that these are 'bad' breeders either, just that testing is not high on their current agenda for many of the reasons some of you have mentioned - limited gene pool, limited lines with no faults in previous litters to date, experience in breeding, etc, etc, etc.

My personal feeling is that all breeding dogs should be tested to give you a base line. You may choose to breed from dogs who have hip/elbow scores that I personally may not be happy to go with, but at least as a puppy purchaser I would have that information and could make an informed decision. I personally feel that a blanket decision to not undertake basic tests is a dis-service to prospective puppy buyers, who will be paying a lot of money for a puppy who will become part of their family....not to mention the impact not testing could potentially have on the breed in this country! I have seen a friends dog go through painful, debilitating HD and would not want to watch a dog I loved go through it.

No health guarantees offered by the active breeders either. Although they do say they will provide lifetime 'support'. One gives a 1 month money back guarantee, but it is unlikely you would know in that period if you have any issues with the pup.....and would have fallen in love with it and not want to give it back either I would think.

I have spoken with breeders in the US/Canada who advise not to touch an untested dog of this breed given the genetic issues that are surfacing worldwide.

So, other breeds that may suit us........there are two, neither of which come close to this breed in my eyes. As I have mentioned I have two dogs currently (from my reserve list) that I chose because I haven't been able to get the breed of my dreams. I love them both dearly, and they do obedience and agility with me, but they are not my first choice breed.

What about importing and quarantine? Anyone have any stories to tell in that regard? Although, this would be a really expensive way to go for a pet!!

Just a sweeping statement, but if this is a large breed and known to have fairly high rates of HD and ED (ED has even higher rate of inheritence than HD) and you want to do agility, then I would give the breed a pass. Even a pup from tested parents would be too big a risk in my point of view. A large breed in agility will need excellent joints. Did you look up the rate of affected dogs on OFA? If you do not know how to do it PM me.

I import and it is expensive. Even in my breed where there are not too many diseases that you can not test for in puppy hood ( like HD), I only import young adults so they can be tested and I know what sort of dog they have grown into. Cost run 10-12,000 and up, from the UK, most of that is shipping, then DNA and health testing and AQIS, price of dog is the minor part. Importing from the US/Canada requires a 5 month waiting period prior and 1 month quarrantine or up to 6 months in quarrantine, so I stick to the UK, Norway, Sweeden and Finnland.

Edited June 13, 2010 by shortstep

[Furx3]

If the breed has such few breeders as you say then you have to start somewhere.

I don't understand why any breeder would want to put all their hard work in without knowing what they are dealing with. The only thing I can think of as to why they wouldn't test is that they don't want to know if there is anything wrong - they'd be at least morally obliged to do something about it, wouldn't they? Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick, but it sounds like head in the sand to me.

That has been my opinion throughout this whole process. I do think that the reasons I have been given for not testing are excuses for not wanting to potentially find out that what we have in this country may be rubbish that shouldn't be being bred. Testing may also show that we have excellent lines in this country, and will advise on the best way to diversify the breed :D . I have figured that the cost of importing/breeding the dogs we currently have here is now so great that nobody wants to risk losing it......no matter how unlikely that may be .

[Furx3]

I wish emigrating was an option Arrow!!....That must really make me a crazy dog lady!!

My next dog will be a pet, as well as an obedience/rally-o/agility dog. I teach obedience classes, so they would also become my 'demo' dog. I know that many of you really want to know the breed, but I will not disclose for reasons I have already mentioned plus more. I am not saying that these are 'bad' breeders either, just that testing is not high on their current agenda for many of the reasons some of you have mentioned - limited gene pool, limited lines with no faults in previous litters to date, experience in breeding, etc, etc, etc.

My personal feeling is that all breeding dogs should be tested to give you a base line. You may choose to breed from dogs who have hip/elbow scores that I personally may not be happy to go with, but at least as a puppy purchaser I would have that information and could make an informed decision. I personally feel that a blanket decision to not undertake basic tests is a dis-service to prospective puppy buyers, who will be paying a lot of money for a puppy who will become part of their family....not to mention the impact not testing could potentially have on the breed in this country! I have seen a friends dog go through painful, debilitating HD and would not want to watch a dog I loved go through it.

No health guarantees offered by the active breeders either. Although they do say they will provide lifetime 'support'. One gives a 1 month money back guarantee, but it is unlikely you would know in that period if you have any issues with the pup.....and would have fallen in love with it and not want to give it back either I would think.

I have spoken with breeders in the US/Canada who advise not to touch an untested dog of this breed given the genetic issues that are surfacing worldwide.

So, other breeds that may suit us........there are two, neither of which come close to this breed in my eyes. As I have mentioned I have two dogs currently (from my reserve list) that I chose because I haven't been able to get the breed of my dreams. I love them both dearly, and they do obedience and agility with me, but they are not my first choice breed.

What about importing and quarantine? Anyone have any stories to tell in that regard? Although, this would be a really expensive way to go for a pet!!

Just a sweeping statement, but if this is a large breed and known to have fairly high rates of HD and ED (ED has even higher rate of inheritence than HD) and you want to do agility, then I would give the breed a pass. Even a pup from tested parents would be too big a risk in my point of view. A large breed in agility will need excellent joints. Did you look up the rate of affected dogs on OFA? If you do not know how to do it PM me.

I import and it is expensive. Even in my breed where there are not too many diseases that you can not test for in puppy hood ( like HD), I only import young adults so they can be tested and I know what sort of dog they have grown into. Cost run 10-12,000 and up, from the UK, most of that is shipping, then DNA and health testing and AQIS, price of dog is the minor part. Importing from the US/Canada requires a 5 month waiting period prior and 1 month quarrantine or up to 6 months in quarrantine, so I stick to the UK, Norway, Sweeden and Finnland.

Thanks Shortstep. I agree, agility is risky for dogs prone to ED and HD. However, my love for this breed outweighs my love of agility. I would only compete in agility if my dog was on the smaller/lighter side of the standard, however still plan to train in agility for fun, over safe heights :D. I teach Danes in fun agility classes over toy sized jumps. Obedience, and now rally-o are my main dog sport interests, both of which perfectly suit this breed.

You have freaked me out with the costs of importing!! I had started looking at the UK for the shorter quarantine time ......I knew it would be expensive, but $12k!! .

[Staranais]

I know that many of you really want to know the breed, but I will not disclose for reasons I have already mentioned plus more.

Tee hee, we will find out anyway when you get your pup and post photos!

I imported my current girl, but only between NZ and Oz, where there is no quarantine. It was expensive but I don't regret it. On the other hand I would not have wanted to import her if she had required quarantine. Those first few months are so important for socialisation & bonding, especially for a performance/competition animal, I would not want my dog to spend them in a quarantine facility. If you were getting an older pup (6 months up), then I think it would be a more reasonable option.

If the breeders are not testing for genetic disease and will also not give a health guarantee that the pup is free from genetic disease, then I'd say that says a lot about their own confidence in their stock being genetically healthy. If they were sure their lines were clean of genetic disease, they'd have no problem offering a guarantee. If they're not sure their lines are healthy, then IMO they should be testing. Doesn't sound very reputable to me.

[Furx3]

I know that many of you really want to know the breed, but I will not disclose for reasons I have already mentioned plus more.

Tee hee, we will find out anyway when you get your pup and post photos! :D

I imported my current girl, but only between NZ and Oz, where there is no quarantine. It was expensive but I don't regret it. On the other hand I would not have wanted to import her if she had required quarantine. Those first few months are so important for socialisation & bonding, especially for a performance/competition animal, I would not want my dog to spend them in a quarantine facility. If you were getting an older pup (6 months up), then I think it would be a more reasonable option.

If the breeders are not testing for genetic disease and will also not give a health guarantee that the pup is free from genetic disease, then I'd say that says a lot about their own confidence in their stock being genetically healthy. If they were sure their lines were clean of genetic disease, they'd have no problem offering a guarantee. If they're not sure their lines are healthy, then IMO they should be testing. Doesn't sound very reputable to me.

NZ Breeders practices are the same as in Aus unfortunately, so NZ not an option either.

The reasons you have listed for avoiding quarantine are the ones that make me not want to go down that path. I know the importance of getting it right in that first year or so, and want to avoid quarantine if at all possible. If importing an older dog, the issue becomes was the dog socialised well where it came from (?).....so still no guarantee you will get the brilliant dog you hope for! I think my choices really are to work out how big a risk getting a pup from a breeder (here) who doesn't test is. And then weighing that risk up against the suitability of my second choice breed, given it's breeder practices are very good in Aus .

[Erny]

Not trying to "guess the breed" - you've made your wishes well and truly clear and I respect them and your reasons for non-disclosure.

But it wouldn't be the Canadian Pointer :D , would it? I have only seen them in a picture, but I was immediately and completely struck by them, and very much would like to pursue them further as a potential 2nd dog (if I can ever get my boy past his current issues - at the moment, they are keeping my wallet empty ).

Edited June 13, 2010 by Erny

[Furx3]

Not trying to "guess the breed" - you've made your wishes well and truly clear and I respect them and your reasons for non-disclosure.

But it wouldn't be the Canadian Pointer , would it? I have only seen them in a picture, but I was immediately and completely struck by them, and very much would like to pursue them further as a potential 2nd dog (if I can ever get my boy past his current issues - at the moment, they are keeping my wallet empty :rolleyes:).

OOhhhh, this could get dangerous if everyone starts offering up their guesses......I am a terrible liar!! I had to look up the Canadian Pointer.....gorgeous!! But that will probably answer your question of whether it is my breed or not ;).

[aussielover]

No health guarantees offered by the active breeders either. Although they do say they will provide lifetime 'support'. One gives a 1 month money back guarantee, but it is unlikely you would know in that period if you have any issues with the pup.....and would have fallen in love with it and not want to give it back either I would think.

I have spoken with breeders in the US/Canada who advise not to touch an untested dog of this breed given the genetic issues that are surfacing worldwide.

So, other breeds that may suit us........there are two, neither of which come close to this breed in my eyes. As I have mentioned I have two dogs currently (from my reserve list) that I chose because I haven't been able to get the breed of my dreams. I love them both dearly, and they do obedience and agility with me, but they are not my first choice breed.

I would personally get a dog of your chosen breed despite the risks. Even if you get a dog from a breeder that does every health test available, there is no absolute guarantee it will be completely healthy. Of course, the probability is greatly increased, but I would say thousands of people buy their dog from shelters/pet shops/BYBers/puppyfarms and many of those end up with physically healthy animals.

[Staranais]

The more I think about this, the crankier it makes me. How are people supposed to convince the general public that buying from a purebred breeders is safer & better than buying from a BYB when some registered breeders neither test their breeding stock for genetic disease, nor offer a health guarantee against genetic disease?

Sorry to hijack your thread a little, just wanted to express my crankiness at your situation. :rolleyes:

[Smartypaws]

This sounds very much like the situation I am in. I look forward to hearing what you decide to do!!

[Wazzat Xolo]

Ive imported and had all tests done and have no problems, but then again I put it down to a LOT of research and selecting the RIGHT breeder who not only makes statements she can back then up!

Personally i wouldnt get any dog unless I could see all health tests and I am a big fan of the DNA parentage tests. I had a very "reputable" breeder (Crested breed) in Australia tell me I could "judge fudge" the Xolos peds when I have litters !

This is very wrong on so many grounds, better a breeder who tells the truth and can back up what they state! IMHO

Edited June 13, 2010 by Wazzat Xolo

[Furx3]

The more I think about this, the crankier it makes me. How are people supposed to convince the general public that buying from a purebred breeders is safer & better than buying from a BYB when some registered breeders neither test their breeding stock for genetic disease, nor offer a health guarantee against genetic disease?

Sorry to hijack your thread a little, just wanted to express my crankiness at your situation.

Makes me cranky too! As I have said, I have been selling the ideal to others for years! :rolleyes: Can't believe that I have ended up in this situation......entertaining the thought of supporting breeder practices I inherently disagree with in order to get a dog I have my heart set on.

[Wazzat Xolo]

The heart decision is what the BYB rely on and it must be an awful situation to be in

Heart or whats right ethically in your mind. I am sure whatever choice you make will be the right one for you!!

[Stolzseinrotts]

Just to add my two cents worth. IMO, any breeder who does not or will not test for basic things, like HD ED and hearts that are a known problem in that bred is one I would question as to why they want to bred them in the first place! Ignorance is not an excuse IMO.

[Furx3]

The heart decision is what the BYB rely on and it must be an awful situation to be in

Heart or whats right ethically in your mind. I am sure whatever choice you make will be the right one for you!!

Thanks Wazzat Xolo. You are right....this is a very, very difficult decision for me. And I agree, the heart decision is why so many owners end up in a bad situation, whether through choice of breeder, choice of breed or timing of choice!

[Furx3]

Just to add my two cents worth. IMO, any breeder who does not or will not test for basic things, like HD ED and hearts that are a known problem in that bred is one I would question as to why they want to bred them in the first place! Ignorance is not an excuse IMO.

Agree again! That is something I am so pleased to see through this thread....the number of quality, concientious breeders who are out there doing the right thing......just wish they were breeding my breed!

[Nekhbet]

Better off importing one of your own if I was in your position.

[Monah]

No idea what I'd do in your situation :rolleyes: I'm pretty sure I know the breed you are after and it's also a favourite of mine and I think would be very popular if there were more around, so maybe you could import, bring in new blood etc.

I was thinking of importing a few years ago, bracco Italiano, as I adore them and luckily for me, a wonderful ethical lovely breeder DID bring one in and she is just as lovely as I thought, so I'm hoping ONE DAY ......

I don't understand breeders not doing health checks. Of course something like HD can come from anywhere in the animal's ancestry and testing is no guarantee, but the more testing done and history and records available, the better for all dogs and owners.

I wish you luck and a positive outcome and hope you have success with gaining your dream breed.xxx