Domestication Dumbs Down Dogs

[corvus]

Here's a nice report on a journal article about how dogs' problem solving skills compare to Dingoes'.

http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/201...tm#artBookmarks

I love this because for ages I wanted my hare in dog form. It took a while for me to realise that a lot of the things my hare can do that I love so much and find so amazing are things he can only do because he's a wild animal. He is not a smart animal the way a dog is smart, but I've often said he has a kind of animal genius to him when it comes to problem solving. For a not very bright, solitary prey animal it blows me away what he can do. Erik is one of the smartest dogs I've met, but when he has a problem he looks for a human to solve it for him. Or he just defaults to thwacking it with his paw and jabbing it with his nose. If he pokes and thwacks enough, usually something will happen sooner or later. Kivi is not a problem solver. He has no motivation for it. Life just happens to him. If he stares at it long enough someone will probably come and sort it out for him.

I know there was a study done on the problem solving skills of different breeds. I seem to remember the Basenjis and Beagles kicked ass over the working breeds when it came to working out problems without human help.

How does your breed go with problem solving?

Edited for heinous grammar.

Edited June 9, 2010 by corvus

[MalteseLuna]

That is hugely interesting

Maybe this is why hybrid (dog X dingoes) are more aggressive and cause more problems with farmers/stock - they don't have the skills to problem solve and survive in the wild.

I think that the 'simple' gene has been found and is believed to be found in all domesticated animals. I can really see it in Luna - she is very 'simple'...

I don't think that Luna is great at problem solving - she is just... simple. It's why her nickname is Ja-Ja (after the star wars character). I can't comment on all Maltese though as I know some who are VERY smart and great at Obedience and Agility.

I don't think that Maltese would survive in the wild though ;)

NB: all the current research seems to indicate that Dingoes are wild and WORTH preserving as Australia's only native/top predator... wish legislation would catch up.

Edited to include link to actual paper - Paper Link

Edited June 9, 2010 by MalteseLuna

[Bubitty]

Bubby is not a problem solver. Bubby is a “MUMMY!!!! FIX IT!!!!!” or a “Hmm I think I will sit and look mellow until Mummy fixes this” kind of fellow!

Bitty on the other hand is a superb problem solver (hehe in my besotted eyes). I have managed to train her to do so many things I don’t actually have the skills to teach but I find that somehow, she works out whatever it is I was wishing she could/would do!

Mind you Bubby looks "smarter" than Bitty. Bitty bounces around like she only has 2 braincells! I often wished she looked as intelligent as she really is!

[gillybob]

I reacon Terriers are good problem solvers.

They can catch and do a lot of things.

As do Kelpies/BCs, they have to know before a sheep knows, what its going to do.

Watch a good working dog work, they solve problems every second.

Wonderfull to see.

I watch a great dog, get a large group of stupid cattle, through a small gateway once, it was amazeing.No human help either.

[Bjelkier]

The Lab is not the sharpest tool in the shed when it comes to problem solving.

He stares at things a lot, apparently that makes everything work for him.

The Sammies are clever, Alchemy is even more switched on then Mistral.

Alchemy is a crack up.

If she wants something Mistral has she will go somewhere and bark (she never barks unless she is distracting Misty or some one has shown up), Mistral thinks there is something amazing going on the races over to where she is. She keeps barking for a moment and waits until he starts up and then quietly sneaks away and grabs the toy.

Misty has caught on to her game though and has started taking the toy with him when he hears her barking, puts it on the ground next to him, barks and keeps an eye on her at the same time.

You can just see her trying to work out how to get him away from the toy now, I can't wait to see what she comes up with.

[Are You Serious Jo]

That's my best buddy, I got him into dingos. But they spelled his name wrong, Bradley isn't a hard name!

[Nekhbet]

I think a lot of it too comes down to how we raise our dogs. We do almost everything for them and it then becomes a use it or lose it type scenario. A lot of dogs will survive if they are dumped or turn feral, they have not lost innate abilities to scavenge, hunt, or survive. Breed shapes and maintenance levels will also play a lot in survival, a little pug will fare far worst then a german shepherd out in the bush.

I see so many dogs with a complete lack of mental process. It is not because they are stupid, but because through training their owners have taught them to switch off, obedience seems to be a huge factor in this. When I did a little test, I wanted my class to teach their dogs to target with a stick. Most of them straight away gave an obedience command and the dog shut off. It stopped thinking and just sat there waiting for the next command. I got so many 'oh my dog is dumb' ... but give them free reign, say nothing and soon the dogs were picking it up quickly and many learned to touch with paw, nose and open mouth in a few minutes. The average backyard does not challenge the dog to explore, in fact we choose our precious gardens over the dogs natural exploratory instincts.

[huski]

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Edited June 10, 2010 by huski

[huski]

Oops triple post!

Edited June 10, 2010 by huski

[huski]

I think Micha is scary smart. He loves to create his own fun. He will throw his toys for himself and will put them somewhere difficult for him to get i.e under the stairs to make the game more fun. If he gets bored, he will intentionally knock his toy somewhere he can't get it and will cry and wait for someone to come along and "find" it for him.

I wonder if breeds who were bred to be more independent are more natural problem solvers? Would you call a dog who is good at shaping a good problem solver even though they are looking to the handler for guidance?

[Nekhbet]

Would you call a dog who is good at shaping a good problem solver even though they are looking to the handler for guidance?

theyre good at picking up visual clues and getting food. Wouldnt call that up there. I would consider a dog that gets frustrated and works it out for himself without having to look back at the handler a good problem solver, one that does it of its own volition for its own reward, not just what button of the handlers to push for treats

[Jigsaw]

As a thought could problem solving skills of domestic dogs be influenced by early upbringing? Could the development of why, what, how and where in domestic dogs be more limited due to the influence of human involvement in very early stages of puppies?

[jacqui835]

I own a working breed - doberman, and I think he is fairly decent at problem solving. For example, he knows he is allowed to chew his toys. He also knows he will get into trouble for chewing something that is not one of his toys. So, he takes several of his toys, and places them on the desired object. Then, should he happen to accidentally chew the forbidden object, it's very hard for him to be punished. His other problem in life is that he loves cat food. Now eating cat food is one of the worst sins he can commit as far as punishment is concerned, and for this reason, he won't even look at it when people are around. But say the people are out, or upstairs and the cats aren't anywhere to be seen. Cat food is gone.

I very much agree with the point though that how we raise them has at least something to do with it. He is always looking to me for guidance when something stumps him. Say he can't find a toy when I threw it, or he wants to get somewhere but the way seems blocked. But if I think he should be able to solve it, I will simply say some encouraging words and perhaps offer limited guidance until he starts looking properly and figures it out himself. You can see how satisfied it makes him when he does succeed. When it comes to obedience training though, he does switch off a bit. It becomes all about response and observation - but in a way that's problem solving, because he knows when I ask him to do something, if he can work it out and do it, he will be rewarded. If the problem is he wants a treat, he knows the best way to get it is likely through pleasing me.

I think dogs have realised that when it comes to problem solving, humans are probably going to beat the dog 99% of the time, so the way to get the reward the fastest - ie to solve the problem most efficiently is simply to aid the human and ensure they know what they can do to be of most use. I think this because my dog will only really attempt to solve a problem if I act like I want him to engage directly, and he is fantastic on picking up on my signals and understanding me. Dogs are team players, and I think they understand that being different we have different roles in the team.

[huski]

Would you call a dog who is good at shaping a good problem solver even though they are looking to the handler for guidance?

theyre good at picking up visual clues and getting food. Wouldnt call that up there. I would consider a dog that gets frustrated and works it out for himself without having to look back at the handler a good problem solver, one that does it of its own volition for its own reward, not just what button of the handlers to push for treats

True although I would think a dog who is good at shaping is probably thinking a bit more than a dog who is simply being lured/placed.

I don't think my dogs looking to me for guidance is a bad thing. That's what I train them to do - learn that the big exciting rewarding things come through me and that they should look to me for permission to have it. With my DA dog, I would rather he looks to me for guidance when we pass a scary intimidating dog than react and lunge at it of his own accord. When I am training Daisy for obed competitions I want her to be looking to me for all the super fun things, not creating her own fun through all the distractions around us. That's not to say I want my dogs to be robots, but if I didn't want them to work with me and look to me for guidance or couldn't train them to do so it (IMO) defeats the purpose of having a domesticated animal.

Edited June 10, 2010 by huski

[corvus]

But see, the thing is I don't think they do know to look to humans to solve their problems for any particular reason. They do it because they are hard-wired to do it. I can't remember who said it, now, but some researcher was looking at the differences between wolves and dogs and they said the difference is puppies look at people, and wolf cubs don't. Boiling it down to fundamentals, obviously. Puppies look at people in situations where wolf cubs don't.

I do think that we can teach our dogs to be good problem solvers, but I don't think we can change that fundamental propensity to look at us, and I don't think we would want to. We've spent thousands of years breeding that into dogs.

Furthermore, I don't think we can teach a wild animal to be helplessly dependent the way we can teach domestic animals to be helplessly dependent on us. I have provided everything for my hare since I got him at about a week old and he doesn't just wait around for things to appear. He is proactive about having his needs met. He gets my attention. That simple little action seems like it's not so different to what dogs do, but IMO when my dogs need or want something they might give me signs, but it's rare for them to actively seek me out and try to communicate what they need. The closest I've seen is Erik bringing his empty water container to me and kicking it around. But I couldn't say that he didn't just find the water container was empty and start playing with it and haphazardly end up doing that near me because of his innate attraction to hanging out with people.

I would consider a dog good at shaping a good problem solver, but not on the same level as a wild animal. My mum has a very smart dog that is a great problem solver. He climbs onto the bbq to lick the plate afterwards. First time he did it he burnt his paws and his tongue. You'd think that would have deterred him, but he just went up a while later and tested it first. So now he will test the heat of the plate very carefully before he commits. If it's too hot he comes back 10 minutes later and tries again. This blew me away, because most dogs I know if they get fed a sausage that is too hot they leave it and never try to eat it even when it's cold. It's like they think if it was hot once it will always be hot.

[W Sibs]

Charlie is somewhat of a problem solver, but I think he is more determined and stubborn to give up. He loves to be challenged and we always play games that makes him really really think (and use his nose). Although, my boyfriend makes him dumb sometimes because he thinks Charlie needs help and I'm mean for hiding things in hard places But if it's not games and it's just everyday stuff... he will sit back and wait. Too him, Mummy and Daddy fixes everything!

With Emmy, she is very determined. What Emmy wants, she gets (even though she's not allow too!). She isn't very patience about waiting for things. She will find ways of getting things on her own... she doesn't often looks for me or the boyfriend to get things for her. Maybe, because, she is still a puppy and it's part of puppyhood?

Examples:

- If she wants Charlie's treats, she will eye it and sneakily try to get it. First, she will lay in front of Charlie and does her cute puppy dog bark as saying 'I want it. Give it to me'... Charlie ignores her. If that doesn't work, she goes away and then before anyone can see it, she pulls his tails, and as Charlie sit up in shock, she will grab the treat and run away with it!

- Another thing she does it, she will do the cute puppy dog bark, and move closer and closer, till she close enough to him... that she can roll over in front of him and grab the treat away mid roll and then gets up and walks away with the treat in her mouth... poor Charlie, doesn't even knows she took the treat till he looks down and looks at her. This is how he has perfected the "WTF?" expression he has when he looks at her sometimes.

[huski]

But see, the thing is I don't think they do know to look to humans to solve their problems for any particular reason. They do it because they are hard-wired to do it. I can't remember who said it, now, but some researcher was looking at the differences between wolves and dogs and they said the difference is puppies look at people, and wolf cubs don't. Boiling it down to fundamentals, obviously. Puppies look at people in situations where wolf cubs don't.

I do think that we can teach our dogs to be good problem solvers, but I don't think we can change that fundamental propensity to look at us, and I don't think we would want to. We've spent thousands of years breeding that into dogs.

I tend to agree, I think it's something that naturally comes with domesticated dogs and I wouldn't want to get rid of it either.

I do think we can train a dog to look to us for certain things, as some dogs are less inclined to do this than others (i.e. more independent breeds who are less driven to work for/with you).

[corvus]

I think ideally you would have a balance, but it just doesn't work like that for any dog. Kivi and Erik have been raised much the same way, but where Erik will try a dozen different ways to get what he wants (he just ran through about 4 different nuisance behaviours to try to magic the door open so he could go to the toilet in the yard), Kivi wants human help and guidance in most things. He's not creative and he just stares at something and presumably hopes someone will come along and fix it for him. The other day he was poking in the garden after coming back from the park and we went into the yard without him. He didn't come when called, and I could see him, so I went to investigate and he had walked into a vine that was across his chest. He figured he was stuck and didn't even try to get himself free. Just waited for me to come and get the vine out of the way. Pathetic. But he did heaps of free shaping as a youngster same as Erik. He's just a passive dog. He accepts things. He has had all the training that should have made a problem solver out of him, but it didn't.

[spottychick]

I've seen all of my dogs work out problems. For example, I was walking Pepper off lead one day and she got stuck on the other side of a barbed wire fence. A friend who was with me called her and I told her not to call her because she might try to go through or jump the barbed wire and get hurt. SO we stopped to look back and see where she could get through safely, but while we were thinking about it Pepper was looking at us and clearly thinking about getting back to us. Then she looked along the fence in both directions, ran a little way in both directions then spotted the lowest bit and ran straight for it, checked it, then jumped over it safely. The lowest bit was quite a distance from us.

ANother time I lost the old dogs "doggles" when we were walking (she needed them for a severe eye condition but I'd taken them off when we were in deep shade) I tied up the old girl under a tree and then went back to look for the doggles with Pepper trailing along side me. We'd trecked off-track so it was a difficult task to work out where they'd fallen out of my pocket. Anyway - after a while Pepper found them, ran back to me then back ahead and "pointed' at the doggles that were lying half-hidden in a patch of prickles.

I have never taught her these things. SHe just worked out what was needed.

I think it's about how they are raised as well as about the breed itself. But I wouldn't mind even if my dog couldn't work stuff out. LOL I don't want a smart wild animal, I want a companion.

Mind you, just for fun I'd love to give Pepper a go at that test they did and see what she made of it LOL

[Kavik]

But see, the thing is I don't think they do know to look to humans to solve their problems for any particular reason. They do it because they are hard-wired to do it. I can't remember who said it, now, but some researcher was looking at the differences between wolves and dogs and they said the difference is puppies look at people, and wolf cubs don't. Boiling it down to fundamentals, obviously. Puppies look at people in situations where wolf cubs don't.

I do think that we can teach our dogs to be good problem solvers, but I don't think we can change that fundamental propensity to look at us, and I don't think we would want to. We've spent thousands of years breeding that into dogs.

I tend to agree, I think it's something that naturally comes with domesticated dogs and I wouldn't want to get rid of it either.

I do think we can train a dog to look to us for certain things, as some dogs are less inclined to do this than others (i.e. more independent breeds who are less driven to work for/with you).

I also agree.

In regards to problem solving in domestic dogs - I think it is (like everything) a combination of nature/nurture. Some dogs are more likely to try things and others are happy to let the world happen to them. But some of this has to do with training. Lots of suppressioin work/traditional obedience work will make dogs less likely to try new things, and shaping encourages trying new things.

I am teaching my dogs to walk backwards, purely shaping the behaviour in a narrow corridor I made against a fence. Kaos picked it up almost right away, in the first session (though I may have started teaching this to him a long time ago, but certainly haven't done work on it in years). He is drivey and I have done a lot of shaping with him, he is happy to offer behaviours. Zoe and Diesel haven't yet figured out what I want. They both want to offer either targeting behaviours or a drop. Zoe is drivey but I only started shaping with her later in her life and she is not as good at offering behaviours at the beginning. She is great once she figures out what you want though. Diesel has less drive and is also less inclined to try things in general, temperamentally different to the others. He also wants to give me a close front when I try this - shows what I practice the most with him