How Do You Know What To Do?

[Staranais]

Ester C can cause gut disturbance in some dogs - possibly that's why he didn't enjoy taking it? The trick from what I've read is to find the highest level the dog can tolerate without causing an uncomfortable tummy. Different for every dog.

I wouldn't put off surgery due to the recovery time, Cosmolo - I wouldn't let that be a factor in my decision making, if I were you. If my girl (1 year old WL mally) can do crate rest for 4 weeks without going bonkers, your boy can certainly do it. The trick is lots of mental games - make him think, make him earn his dinner piece by piece, wear him out that way, there are loads of tricks you can learn without the dog ever leaving the crate. We have a crate in the car too, so she can go everywhere with me & get mental stimulation without walking around. It goes faster than you'd think, and the dogs do cope.

[aussielover]

Removing the bone fragments would help, but I know how difficult it is to confine them after the surgery. We recently had a 6 month old lab puppy in for elbow dysplasia, he boarded at the vets for 2 weeks following the op and was going nuts by the end of it.

My dog had the stem cells for her elbows which helped, but I really think it would not be worth it without removing any bone fragments. If you are considering the surgery i would speak to a specialist ASAP, (perhaps get 2 opinions) because apparently the sooner you do surgery, the better the outcome.

Your poor baby , I hope you find somehting that helps you

[Natsu chan]

Cos, not doing surgery doesn't make you a bad owner. People often forget that the success of such things is not just in the hands of the vet but more importantly in the temperament of the patient and the quality of the after care. Some animals just can not mentally cope with the recovery period. It's got nothing to do with activity levels either. You know your dog better than anyone else only you can decide if he will cope mentally or not.

I do agree with nekhbet though, bowen is great but I have found to that it works far far better and faster when done in conjunction with something else, in our case that's chiro. Which does mean, chiro one day bowen the next but the massive leap of improvement has made it worth the extra effort. If you aren't sure you can at least try that while you decide what to do.

It's a hard one, and heart breaking. Just think about it, you'll work out what to do.

[Cosmolo]

Nekhbet, i understand your suggestions and thank you for them. I know you feel like you're repeating yourself but if you have a look at the dates of the last thread- it was some time ago- (ETA- just had a look, it was December 2008) what we were doing had been working and we were happy with his progess/ level of comfort. I snapped at you last time because of your manner- not because of your actual suggestions.

Bowen was working- we were having success and this had not been a gradual decline. We did shove tablets down his throat consistently (like ester C and glucosamine) and found they had no impact at the time but like i said earlier, i am happy to try these again once we have the acute pain under control. I know many don't believe me when i say he will starve himself- but he will if he gets regular tablets in food and without food, when we shove it down his throat, he shakes and drools uncontrollably while trying to clamp his mouth shut- this has improved slightly but it is one of the factors that made us take him off tablets that didn't appear to make any difference. (he was getting about 8-10 tablets daily)

He has a coat on and is inside all the time except for toileting- he never gets left in the backyard.

The first priority right now is to try to extinguish the acute pain- keep in mind people that the crying has been for less than 24 hours, its not as though we have left the dog screaming since February..

Staranais- thanks for that, the vet said pretty much the same thing- his main concern is the effect on other joints and the limited improvement that may be gained at this point. My concern is not one surgery recovery- my concern is if we had to do 3-4 surgeries, locking him up for 6-12 months would definitely be an issue.

futuredogtrainer- yes i am a professional dog trainer- NOT a veterinarian and i do not give veterinary advice to my clients beyond basic care. And what do you think i am doing now? I am going trough all options at the moment- given there are some things we have not done, i am not having him pts now. If we can't stabilise him and the pain, i know thats going to be on the table- i'm not going to keep him in pain for my own selfish needs but as i am sure you can understand it is VERY difficult for me to contemplate having to make that decision.

Edited June 9, 2010 by Cosmolo

[Vickie]

What an awful choice for you to make. I cannot imagine how hard it must be seeing a special young dog in such pain.

I have a friend who had stem cell done on his BC. She was severly displastic. She is now back in the agility ring & looking a hundred times happier &

better than what she was before treatment. If it would help, I am sure he would be willing to have a chat to you about the process & recovery.

Let me know if you are interested & I will PM you his email address.

[Staranais]

Staranais- thanks for that, the vet said pretty much the same thing- his main concern is the effect on other joints and the limited improvement that may be gained at this point. My concern is not one surgery recovery- my concern is if we had to do 3-4 surgeries, locking him up for 6-12 months would definitely be an issue.

That is a bigger issue, but honestly, to tell you the truth, if I were you I would mainly be basing my decision on the the likely result of surgery. Hopefully the vet can give you a good idea what his likely quality of life will probably be after the operations.

For us - a 90% chance of full recovery - putting her through surgery was a no brainer. I would definitely have done it even if she needed 6 months of crate rest afterwards (oh thank God she didn't!) because I know there is a good chance she will run and jump for years afterwards. But I wouldn't put her through that if there wasn't a very good chance she'd be a completely normal dog again afterwards.

I know you will do the right thing by your boy. You're the only one on the spot, the only one with all the information, and the only who can decide what that is.

[Bundyburger]

Hugs Cos, I know how much you love your special man.

[W Sibs]

I don't know what to say... but I often ask this same question too.

Lately, more so.

[OSoSwift]

I am sorry Dexter is still feeling sore, but hopefully he will feel better soon.

My aged Stafford - 13 today Happy birthday Brutus- had a couple of episodes last year where he would be walking along and scream. Rimadyl did nothing. We had to start him on Pred due to the nerve damage from spinal arthritis. Because Pred is not a good pain killer he was also on Tramal. It worked a treat. Now he is maintained on the Pred and all the other natural goodies, coats heated bed etc.

It is much easier to be sitting at the computer rather than at ground zero such as you are. Since he has had a "crash" so to speak he may get much more comfortable if they throw all the good stuff at him. Yes it masks the pain, but I want my dog to be as pain free as possible even if they live 6 months less than they would of without the painkillers. My Dog is on Pred constantly and has been so for nearly two years. He is happy, we are happy if he goes sooner than without who cares. I thought a year ago we were at the end of his time. He is still here and having his party with candles, doggy icecream and a song.

Cos I would put him on daily anti-inflammatories if it means he is going to have a more painfree time with you, for however long that may be.

You know what you and your dog can take and what exaclty you are willing or able to do. I personally would euth a dog that had to be carried outside and propped up to toilet and was screaming on his bed. But that is my personal opinion. After having worked for many years in the industry there are quite a few things I would not put my dog through that I may have, if I had not seen what had happened afterwards. BUT each situation is different as each person and their dog are different.

I hope after he has had some time for the pain killers to kick in he is much more comfortable, try also laying warm wheat bags across his hips and elbow if he will tolerate them, heat can quite often bring even only short term relief.

Still thinking of you

[Erny]

Sorry to hear this, Cosmolo . It's really tough.

I'd probably speak to the specialists who do the stem cell treatment and get their advice, thoughts and opinions. And go from there. Much depends on whether you can afford the stem cell therapy and whether the specialists believe there is likely to be a good chance of success.

Other than that, it needs to be your decision, as hard as that is. I don't think there'll be any comfort in it, but know that this decision is harder on you than it is on Dexter. If you can console yourself with that, even a little bit, it might shore up your strength for decision one way or another.

[Cosmolo]

Thanks everyone. He is alot more comfortable tonight and alot happier- bit more back to his normal personality at least although still a little stiff.

[Cosmolo]

He is back to 'normal' this morning. This is what makes it difficult- its like living on a roller coaster! To look at him today you wouldn't know that anything was wrong with him yesterday.

[OSoSwift]

So glad Dexter is feeling better. Yes it is an emotional roller coaster! Just when you think you are going to have to make that tough call, they bounce out of bed and want to chase birds! Little buggers can't make it easy for us can they!

I hope he continues to gain lots of pain relief.

Hugs to all

[missmoo]

Hi Cosmolo,

Have you tried acupuncture?....my girl had displaysia in both her hips and both elbows and arthritis in every other joint, and the acupuncture worked well for approx. 12 mths....your dog can have regular treatments or can also have a procedure where little acupuncture "balls" are injected/implanted into the joints...its a little too technical for me to explain here but it does work for a little while and isnt that expensive (or it wasnt when molly had hers done)....there are a few vets in Melbourne that do this

I also elected not to have surgery on Molly's hips and elbows, 1 because of the cost and 2 because no matter how gifted a surgeon is they cannot replace every joint in a dog's body....you can take the pain away from the joints that are replaced but not the rest.....unfortunately Molly went into chronic real failure at

4 & 1/2 yrs old from being on NSAID every day since she was 9mths of age and from then on nothing worked and the hardest decision I have ever had to make was needed....

do what you can for as long you can....you will know when you need to make "that" decision

good luck

MM

[Erny]

He is back to 'normal' this morning. This is what makes it difficult- its like living on a roller coaster! To look at him today you wouldn't know that anything was wrong with him yesterday.

Cosmolo, my first horse went permantly lame when she was around 9yo, so I retired her and just let her enjoy life. Over the years, her 'bad' leg would get even worse to the point of her having days where she was unwilling to move around on it and when she did, it was one of those lamenesses where her head would rise right up and then right down again, with every slow step. I'd be thinking I should do the very thing that none of us likes to face, or can face easily, and then a day or so later she'd be bucking and farting around like a spring foal.

On one of the Vet visits, I asked the Vet if I was thinking of myself for keeping her alive, or was I correct in thinking that I was being unselfish by letting her carry on and enjoy those good days in between times. My Vet told me that I was not doing the wrong thing by letting her keep going. He said "look at her eyes - there's a gleam and a twinkle. When that goes, you'll know your horse (Lollipop) has had enough." As it was, she developed an incurable thrombosis in her rear leg and on that day I knew I had to do the kindest thing I could by letting her go. She was by then, 23 years old.

So don't look so much at Dexter's lameness, but look into his eyes. Let him tell you what he thinks.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Erny

[Golden Rules]

I haven't read every post (in a rush and at work!) so not sure if this has been mentioned before, but the odd dose of anti inflammatories when you think it's required is not an ideal way to treat a dog with obvious ongoing pain.

His good days, he may still be in pain but because dogs are so stoic, you'd never know - and it's the days when he's screaming, you know he's reached his limit.

Anyway, my suggestion through my experience is to have the dog on a daily dose of whatever anti inflammatories you have and continue on with your other treatments/therapies as well.

I would also recommend acupuncture as this is a good way to strengthen the muscles which support the joints.

My dog is pretty much a normal dog these days (HD and cruciates) but if we go a few days without his anti inflammatories, he slows right down and starts to limp.

Good luck with the fella, he's lucky he landed on his feet in your household!

[BittyMooPeeb]

Hi Cosmolo,

If it were me, I would seriously consider surgery. He is a young dog, and if he lives till (say) 10 yrs old, he will go through 12 months of frustration to have 7 quality years. I'd also get two ops at once, to reduce the amount of time he needs to be kept quiet, so maybe both front legs, then both rear legs.

Gail

[Cosmolo]

BMP- they can't/ won't do surgery on multiple legs at once and the surgeries do not act upon the arthritis and degeneration already present so while we would add maybe a few more years, it certainly wouldn't be more than 3-4 at the most.

12 months to keep a dog like him confined is not an option for us. The long term effects of this would be awful for him- if it were any of the other dogs, i'd think differently. If we do look at surgery, we will only consider doing the worst leg if the specialist thinks that is a promosing option or possible hip denervation.

Golden rules thats a fair point so thats what we will be exploring with the vet from here on in.

We haven't tried the acupuncture where they inject the balls- will do some reading on this. Thanks missmoo.

And thanks Erny- thats a really helpful post.

[KJ]

I have a young Lab with multiple joint problems. 6 months ago her arthritis was so bad, despite all the medication she was on, and I wondered if I was cruel keeping her alive. It was heartbreaking to have to carry her to bed at night.The best option for her was a joint fusion, with a long recovery. I though long and hard about putting her through more surgery but it was her only chance of being pain free. After she recovered from the surgery she was like a new dog, so happy and pain free. Unfortunantly due to complications she has just had the procedure repeated. I questioned if doing the surgery again was being fair to her but she is such an easy going girl and copes really well with being crated/confined. I know other people probably think she should have been pts ages ago but, as she is now asleep on my lap with a very content look on her face, I know I have made the right decisions for her.

Good luck with your boy, would be great if your specialist can provide you with some hope!

[Kimjm1]

Cosmolo I am so sorry Dexter is not doing so well....from memory he certainly is a active boy, their is a new range of braces avaliable in Australia designed to support joints the are arthritic and or unstable maybe something like this would provide him with atleast some relief. If you want to email me if you are intrested I can give you the relevent contact details.