Resolved

[Staranais]

The bottom line as I see it, is that if the breed club was forced to comply with the controlling bodies requirements, every breeder could only use titled dogs in their breeding practices otherwise their dogs could not be registered with the particular breed name. The "agenda" although there a quite a few imported titled males in this country, there are few if any titled bitches at all. What it would mean, is that they would need to either import some titled bitches to continue breeding, or grab a leash and head down to the Schutzhund club to do some serious training which most breeders I wouldln't image would want the added responsibility of training and titling their dogs, let alone uncover their former breeding stock's inability to comply with the breed standards when failling workability tests.

There would be massive repercussion and fallout across the breed if Schutzhund testing was made compulsory which I think is a great motivator to have the sport banned and gotten rid of before this situation has the potential to take place

So forgive me for being dense, but what actual ramifications would it have for Aussie breeders if the FAI decided it didn't recognise their dogs anymore?

The FAI can hardly stop the AnKC calling their dogs "german shepherd dog", I wouldn't think - I mean, the FAI haven't got an international patent on the name (do they?!) And Aussie breeders could still take their dogs to AnKC shows, register them with the AnKC, right?

Does it mean they couldn't export their dogs, is that the big issue? Is it a similar situation as if my mallie's pedigree was suddenly no longer recognised by the FCI, and only valid within NZ, so I couldn't export any of her offspring?

[K9Nev]

I have had people coming to me from the very same breed and training groups that we speak of, telling me this is what they know as a result of being told. So I think the 'story' (myth) is driven from someone's and/or some org's agenda and in that respect, I believe that K9Nev is more on the button.

Oh really? Fair enough then. I've got to ask though... whose agenda? And why? It doesn't seem to me that schutzhund is much of a threat to the kennel club simply because the kennel club is much larger, much better known, and much better funded (well, it is over here, anyway - I presume it's the same in Oz?)

I don't know the intricacies of it all as I'm not involved in the breed, but this is the somewhat simplified summary of how I understand it :

The FAI is the German "Mother Club" of GSD's. Their policies dictate that to be able to be recognised by them and to breed, the breeding stock needs to have successfully completed Level III (I think) in Schutzhund (conformation AND character assessment being intrinsically necessary to meet the FAI's standards). Many of the GSD's that are breeding stock and have been bred out here would not be able to meet the standards of this level of Schutzhund, and/or perhaps the people who own these dogs would not have the time to dedicate to such a refined and exact sport even if they were. The argument from here to the FAI has been, in the past, that Schutzhund Sport is illegal out here and on that basis the FAI should not expect or insist on passing the prescribed Schutzhund Level as the "character/temperament" assessment component of their policy. That's been a bit of untruth, I believe, as Schutzhund, especially back then, had not been proclaimed as being illegal here. But it would be easier to be able to by-pass the requirement if Schutzhund Character Assessment requirement if it was indeed made illegal.

This is the essence of it and every time it has come up here on DOL, there are many who rise to knock it on its head. I'm even likely to cop a ing for bringing it up here now. But it is the one explanation that makes so much sense. Otherwise, with all the petitioning; explaining; submissions; and so on and so forth, why has it been fraught with so much negativity? And why aren't the Breed Clubs involved, strongly in favour of it?

You have heard the same story too Erny, and is what I have been told also on many occasions. Strangely though, the breed clubs although fighting against Schutzhund with great negativity, have an entirely opposite approach when promoting an imported dog and happily flash the dog's Schutzhund title up for all to admire I remain of the opinion that the breed clubs just can't be bothered with the necessity to title their dogs and life is far easier without the added stress of it all

Edited June 12, 2010 by K9Nev

[K9Nev]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I'm kind of glad I stuck to the mallies.

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV.

[Staranais]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I'm kind of glad I stuck to the mallies.

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV.

Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something.

[K9Nev]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

Yes - that's how I understand it.

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I've had the reasons explained to me, but not being directly involved, I tend to forget some of these things and I would need to hand this over to someone who does fully appreciate the inner workings of the breeds and breed organisations to answer properly. But my guess is that the FAI is held in great esteem (should I say, "the ultimate"?) and to have a GSD acknowledged and recognised by it would be one of the higher marks of excellence reflecting on your breeding stock.

I think also there is some "Title" or trophy that GSD owner/breeders would be honoured to achieve, but that "Title" or trophy is under the auspice of the FAI and wouldn't be attainable if you didn't have the qualifying credentials behind you in the first place.

I guess. I'm sure I'm being too simplistic in my answer and stand to be corrected for it.

That's correct. The German breed survey has a temperament test attached that includes a protection phase as part of the character test. To qualify for breed survey entry, each dog has to have previously gained a SchH1 or HDH herding title to participate. As there is bitework involved in the test, the dog with a HDH would have to be trained on sleeve work to pass and gain it's Kkl endorsement. It's different to a Schutzhund routine in the breed survey or (Korung) they call it, but it's on similar lines and scored the same way.

[K9Nev]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I'm kind of glad I stuck to the mallies.

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV.

Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something.

That's how I understand it. It could take 20 years for any action to become of a naming rights situation, but I think the ANKC is bound by the FAI structure. The FAI apply the requirements of the German SV so I guess if a situation like that occurred, the ANKC would have to comply as a link in that chain. Our GSD registrations don't comply with the FAI as it stands and cannot be entered into a world Seiger Shows or any WUSV events. I remember when Nordenstam Chiller represented Australia in the WUSV world Schutzhund Championship Titles, there was a lot of red tape to go though to have his Australian Pedigree recognised by the FAI. I think Chiller had to be show trained for ring work to get a show rating along with a character asessment to be recognised at FAI level for entry status.

Edited June 12, 2010 by K9Nev

[Staranais]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I'm kind of glad I stuck to the mallies.

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV.

Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something.

That's how I understand it. It could take 20 years for any action to become of a naming rights situation, but I think the ANKC is bound by the FAI structure. The FAI apply the requirements of the German SV so I guess if a situation like that occurred, the ANKC would have to comply as a link in that chain.

What does FAI stand for? I've had a google to learn more & can't seem to find it?

[K9Nev]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I'm kind of glad I stuck to the mallies.

I think it's a situation like a copywrite or trademark type arrangement where a body is given the rights to use the breed name as I understood it. The GSD for instance could be bred as they are today, but could not be registered as GSD's. The breed club would have to apply to the ANKC to name them something else in order to be registered???, something along those lines from a legal sense???. The GSD name I would imagine is owned by the SV.

Oh really? I kind of assumed that there would be no way to enforce the AnKC not being allowed to use the GSD "name", since it's so hard to enforce international law. But if you are right, then I can see why the AnKC doesn't want to get offside with the FAI. They'd need to call them Australian Alsatians or something.

That's how I understand it. It could take 20 years for any action to become of a naming rights situation, but I think the ANKC is bound by the FAI structure. The FAI apply the requirements of the German SV so I guess if a situation like that occurred, the ANKC would have to comply as a link in that chain.

What does FAI stand for? I've had a google to learn more & can't seem to find it?

FCI it is. Federation Cynologique Internationale. FAI was an insurance company we must be confused with wasn't it

[Staranais]

FCI it is. Federation Cynologique Internationale. FAI was an insurance company we must be confused with wasn't it

Oh my goodness, then this thread has just started to make a WHOLE lot more sense to me. I was wondering what this mysterious powerful "FAI" body was and how I had never heard of it before! Oops.

[Erny]

The "agenda" although there a quite a few imported titled males in this country, there are few if any titled bitches at all. What it would mean, is that they would need to either import some titled bitches to continue breeding ...

Which I believe they have resolved by getting VicDogs and Govt to agree that they can import Titled dogs to this State and that whilst the dogs are being exhibited, they are exempt from the "Dangerous Dog" restrictions. Which means to me they are saying that when these dogs are being exhibited, they are not dangerous for their Sch Title but when they aren't being exhibited, they are. And this still resolves their preference to not being required to partake in Sch for the 'bad' that it is, yet herald the fact they have breeding stock that is Sch Titled for the 'good' that it is.

Yep - pretty much what you said here, K9Nev :

Strangely though, the breed clubs although fighting against Schutzhund with great negativity, have an entirely opposite approach when promoting an imported dog and happily flash the dog's Schutzhund title up for all to admire I remain of the opinion that the breed clubs just can't be bothered with the necessity to title their dogs and life is far easier without the added stress of it all

Their way of having cake and eating it too, it seems. It might benefit the breeder enthusiasts for what their goals are and the way they prefer to achieve them, but I can't see how it benefits the dogs. That's the sad bit.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Erny

[Erny]

FCI it is. Federation Cynologique Internationale. FAI was an insurance company we must be confused with wasn't it

Oh my goodness, then this thread has just started to make a WHOLE lot more sense to me. I was wondering what this mysterious powerful "FAI" body was and how I had never heard of it before! Oops.

That should be my "oops". Sorry. Brain strain from all the effort against the current spat of laws our notorious Victorian State Government want to bring in . It was this reason also that I didn't take the time to back track to the information I had read up on about GSD Club -vs- Schutzhund.

My apologies.

FCI it is. Federation Cynologique Internationale. FAI was an insurance company we must be confused with wasn't it

Thank you for straightening it out, K9Nev.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Erny

[K9Nev]

The "agenda" although there a quite a few imported titled males in this country, there are few if any titled bitches at all. What it would mean, is that they would need to either import some titled bitches to continue breeding ...

Which I believe they have resolved by getting VicDogs and Govt to agree that they can import Titled dogs to this State and that whilst the dogs are being exhibited, they are exempt from the "Dangerous Dog" restrictions. Which means to me they are saying that when these dogs are being exhibited, they are not dangerous for their Sch Title but when they aren't being exhibited, they are. And this still resolves their preference to not being required to partake in Sch for the 'bad' that it is, yet herald the fact they have breeding stock that is Sch Titled for the 'good' that it is.

Yep - pretty much what you said here, K9Nev :

Strangely though, the breed clubs although fighting against Schutzhund with great negativity, have an entirely opposite approach when promoting an imported dog and happily flash the dog's Schutzhund title up for all to admire I remain of the opinion that the breed clubs just can't be bothered with the necessity to title their dogs and life is far easier without the added stress of it all

Their way of having cake and eating it too, it seems. It might benefit the breeder enthusiasts for what their goals are and the way they prefer to achieve them, but I can't see how it benefits the dogs. That's the sad bit.

I had a feeling when all of this transpired that the ball had been dropped............major fluff up where they realised at the last minute that the imported dogs would come under the dangerous dog description ;) ..........like, what do we do now :D The exemption sounded like the result of an afterthought recovery process to allow titled dogs to be exhibited. That in it's self makes no sense in the legislation that Schutzhund trained and titled dogs are dangerous if they are stable enough not to present a public threat when exhibited at a show. They are either dangerous or they are not, but the exhibition in a public place of a people gathering is the last place that a truely dangerous dog should be. The exemption to exhibit answers the question that essentially the titled dog is not dangerous at all and the whole Victorian issue is completely contradictory and frustrating to say the least

[K9Nev]

FCI it is. Federation Cynologique Internationale. FAI was an insurance company we must be confused with wasn't it :D

Oh my goodness, then this thread has just started to make a WHOLE lot more sense to me. I was wondering what this mysterious powerful "FAI" body was and how I had never heard of it before! Oops. :D

That should be my "oops". Sorry. Brain strain from all the effort against the current spat of laws our notorious Victorian State Government want to bring in . It was this reason also that I didn't take the time to back track to the information I had read up on about GSD Club -vs- Schutzhund.

My apologies.

FCI it is. Federation Cynologique Internationale. FAI was an insurance company we must be confused with wasn't it

Thank you for straightening it out, K9Nev.

;) , It made me think for a second when I saw FAI, then I thought yeah that's it............but there are so many abbreviated dog terms to remember, you get lost in half of them

[Staranais]

Brain strain from all the effort against the current spat of laws our notorious Victorian State Government want to bring in . It was this reason also that I didn't take the time to back track to the information I had read up on about GSD Club -vs- Schutzhund.

Thanks in advance for your efforts, Erny, in case I ever end up living in Vic! :D

[Erny]

Brain strain from all the effort against the current spat of laws our notorious Victorian State Government want to bring in . It was this reason also that I didn't take the time to back track to the information I had read up on about GSD Club -vs- Schutzhund.

Thanks in advance for your efforts, Erny, in case I ever end up living in Vic! :D

The way things are going here, Star, me living in NZ is not off the cards!!

[Aidan3]

What's the situation with other countries that DO allow SchH but do NOT stipulate that dogs need to hold SchH titles?

Another thing, is it not actually SV that insists that dogs hold either SchH or HGH titles? The FCI regulate, amongst other things, the international sport of IPO.

[Staranais]

And, now I think about it, how about the dogs that hold French & Belgian Ring titles? Do they ALSO need to get a SchH to be eligible for breeding under the FCI system? That seems a bit harsh.

[Nekhbet]

And, now I think about it, how about the dogs that hold French & Belgian Ring titles? Do they ALSO need to get a SchH to be eligible for breeding under the FCI system? That seems a bit harsh.

OK this will explain the SV system for people http://home.flash.net/~astroman/requirements.html

you only need to pass the BH then Sch1 in order to breed.

Ringsport, not really a shepherd thing. Ringsport is pretty much Malinois/dutch shep dominated. THere is nothing stopping someone taking a young Sch1 dog further into ringsport, but if that is your thing most people I have seen go straight past the GSD unless they are from very capable lines. You underestimate the difficulty of ringsport compared to IPO/Sch. Ringsport blows it straight out of the water. Most notably bites are not limited to sleeve like Sch.

Here is Belgian Ringsport

KNPV (dutch)

Mondioring (which is like a hybrid of other ringsports and sch)

French Ring

Edited June 13, 2010 by Nekhbet

[K9Nev]

What's the situation with other countries that DO allow SchH but do NOT stipulate that dogs need to hold SchH titles?

Another thing, is it not actually SV that insists that dogs hold either SchH or HGH titles? The FCI regulate, amongst other things, the international sport of IPO.

The SV submit to the FCI what the breed requirements will be. The SV is the international breed register and will not hold an untitled dog in their registery over 2 years of age that is allowed to breed or be shown. Registeries or breed clubs with SV affiliation are supposed to follow SV rules. The breed clubs in the USA that are SV affiliated title breeding stock as they do in Germany........not sure what happens in other countries???

Edited June 13, 2010 by K9Nev

[K9Nev]

And, now I think about it, how about the dogs that hold French & Belgian Ring titles? Do they ALSO need to get a SchH to be eligible for breeding under the FCI system? That seems a bit harsh.

OK this will explain the SV system for people http://home.flash.net/~astroman/requirements.html

you only need to pass the BH then Sch1 in order to breed.

Ringsport, not really a shepherd thing. Belgian ring is pretty much Malinois dominated. THere is nothing stopping someone taking a young Sch1 dog further into ringsport, but if that is your thing most people I have seen go straight past the GSD.

Also pass the Korung (breed survey) for a Kkl rating. Regardless of the Schutzhund title, the breeding stock must be breedworthy in all the other aspects too.