Resolved

[Nekhbet]

yup there was rumours of KNVP coming to USA but it wont happen. Probably a good thing they hold onto KNVP everything else that seems to get out of its country of origin becomes crippled or completely removed from what it was originally.

Plus we can barely keep up with IPO/Sch I dont think this country is really ready for ringsport. More is the pity about that. We'll all just have to move to a normal european country.

and anyway dogs weren't designed to perform these functions they were designed to dance, and catch frsbies and stuff.

ahahaha dont get me started on this. But remember if its ANKC recognised and your dog passes it will gosh darn it you must have an A1 class working dog on your hands there

head ...

desk...

honestly bugger sports I would rather see more dogs out there hunting, pointing, herding, coursing etc with their owners. Doing the real thing and not just a simulation.

[Tay.]

I'd love to see Dock Dogs take off in Aus!

And it would be awesome to see Flyball become more popular!! and Dancing with dogs in SA!

[J...]

ahahaha dont get me started on this. But remember if its ANKC recognised and your dog passes it will gosh darn it you must have an A1 class working dog on your hands there

head ...

desk...

honestly bugger sports I would rather see more dogs out there hunting, pointing, herding, coursing etc with their owners. Doing the real thing and not just a simulation.

Rather see a fit, healthy, happy working bred dog doing dogsports than seeing them locked in a backyard bored out of their brains.

[Kavik]

ahahaha dont get me started on this. But remember if its ANKC recognised and your dog passes it will gosh darn it you must have an A1 class working dog on your hands there

head ...

desk...

honestly bugger sports I would rather see more dogs out there hunting, pointing, herding, coursing etc with their owners. Doing the real thing and not just a simulation.

Rather see a fit, healthy, happy working bred dog doing dogsports than seeing them locked in a backyard bored out of their brains.

Agree! Anything that gets people out there doing stuff with their dogs!

Would like to see Schutzhund and Rally-O get some recognition.

[K9Nev]

french ring would be nice

can you explain what this is???

FR is a dog sport which was developed to test dogs for working ability before breeding. The dogs are tested in obedience, protection, food refusal and jumping exercises. It is similar to KNPV and makes Schutzhund look like a glorified obedience competition...oh wait up a minute.

You would have buckleys of getting french Ring accepted. The ANKC won't accept the glorified obedience sport of Schtuzhund. These are terrible sports and teach dogs to be savage and bite people and become dangerous, and anyway dogs weren't designed to perform these functions they were designed to dance, and catch frsbies and stuff.

If these sports were introduced it would be interesting to see how many dogs would be suitable for breeding. Not many I would think. The strong show focus of some breeds has well and truly damaged their ability to work like the breed was initially designed to do. But hey they look pretty.

In the best interests of breed preservation and quality control from what ever angle I look at the situation of Schutzhund training and testing, there is no "valid" reason IMHO for why the sport presents such supposed major issues from the groups who should be in support of it???.

Edited June 11, 2010 by K9Nev

[huski]

honestly bugger sports I would rather see more dogs out there hunting, pointing, herding, coursing etc with their owners. Doing the real thing and not just a simulation.

Rather see a fit, healthy, happy working bred dog doing dogsports than seeing them locked in a backyard bored out of their brains.

Agree! Anything that gets people out there doing stuff with their dogs!

I agree too - I love seeing dogs out and about enjoying dog sports, who cares if it's not the "real thing" when the dogs and owners are clearly having a good time And far better than being stuck in the back yard doing nothing!

I too would like to see Schutzhund recognised and wouldn't mind giving rally-o a go.

[Erny]

I too would like to see Schutzhund recognised ...

Ditto.

And if not recognised by the likes of ANKC and Kennel Councils, then at least accepted for the good that they do and not falsely criticised and outlawed.

[huski]

I too would like to see Schutzhund recognised ...

Ditto.

And if not recognised by the likes of ANKC and Kennel Councils, then at least accepted for the good that they do and not falsely criticised and outlawed.

Definitely! Totally agree with you Erny I love watching Schutzhund, it's so impressive!

[K9Nev]

I too would like to see Schutzhund recognised ...

Ditto.

And if not recognised by the likes of ANKC and Kennel Councils, then at least accepted for the good that they do and not falsely criticised and outlawed.

Anti Schutzhund movements IMHO are driven by some Kennel Council's fear that if it becomes formally recognised, it's only one step away from the necessity to train and title breeding stock Banning Schutzhund is the only safe way to make sure this situation never occurs which makes perfect sense as such a necessity would competely turn the breeding and showing fraturnity upside down in termoil for some breeds.

I don't think it has anything to do with dangerous dogs and all the negativity towards the sport, it's driven by the fear of being forced to get off your butt to train and title dogs of certain breeds if you want to continue to breed and show them...........I am totally convinced of that

But furthermore to this line of thought if Schutzhund became recognised, even if it never became compulsory to train and title breeding stock, some breeders would participate and title dogs to create yet another division in some breeds between who is breeding with titled stock and who isn't. It wouldn't take long before titled dogs had a formal priority over untitled dogs as the titled breedings comply with the world recognised rule book and the untitled do not. It would be a hard argument to win for breeders who don't follow what is written in black and white in terms of testing requirements for breeding to convince people that they are producing quality stock over the one's who follow the requirements completely.

That's the way I see the situation for anti Schutzhund movements to make any sense

Edited June 12, 2010 by K9Nev

[Staranais]

I don't know, to me the schutzhund situation seems a bit like the pitbull situation, where you have well meaning but ignorant members of the public driving the ban because pitbulls look dangerous to them and banning dangerous dogs is common sense. I think it's well meaning but ignorant people wanting to ban schutzhund too ("well of course people shouldn't be allowed to train dogs how to attack people! That's just common sense!")

Although I imagine the Kennel Club won't move a muscle to help the sport out, I doubt they're behind attempts to ban it. Why would they bother? Schutzhund is no threat to them - most people couldn't care less about getting a dog with working titles unless they're actually going to work or seriously compete with it, and that's got to be less than a few % of dog owners.

JMO.

[Kavik]

I don't know, to me the schutzhund situation seems a bit like the pitbull situation, where you have well meaning but ignorant members of the public driving the ban because pitbulls look dangerous to them and banning dangerous dogs is common sense. I think it's well meaning but ignorant people wanting to ban schutzhund too ("well of course people shouldn't be allowed to train dogs how to attack people! That's just common sense!")

Although I imagine the Kennel Club won't move a muscle to help the sport out, I doubt they're behind attempts to ban it. Why would they bother? Schutzhund is no threat to them - most people couldn't care less about getting a dog with working titles unless they're actually going to work or seriously compete with it, and that's got to be less than a few % of dog owners.

JMO.

I agree. It would be great if people were more informed about the triathlon that is Schutzhund and the dedication that is involved in the training.

[Erny]

Hi Star.

I don't believe it is purely "ignorance" and a naive assumption that dogs biting on sleeves means dog aggro. Many people who don't understand it are, I admit, easily persuaded that's the case - I mean, in their minds, it is easily plausible. But instead of that naive assumption being quelled, it seems to have been promoted. I have had people coming to me from the very same breed and training groups that we speak of, telling me this is what they know as a result of being told. So I think the 'story' (myth) is driven from someone's and/or some org's agenda and in that respect, I believe that K9Nev is more on the button.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

I have had people coming to me from the very same breed and training groups that we speak of, telling me this is what they know as a result of being told. So I think the 'story' (myth) is driven from someone's and/or some org's agenda and in that respect, I believe that K9Nev is more on the button.

Oh really? Fair enough then. I've got to ask though... whose agenda? And why? It doesn't seem to me that schutzhund is much of a threat to the kennel club simply because the kennel club is much larger, much better known, and much better funded (well, it is over here, anyway - I presume it's the same in Oz?)

[K9Nev]

I don't know, to me the schutzhund situation seems a bit like the pitbull situation, where you have well meaning but ignorant members of the public driving the ban because pitbulls look dangerous to them and banning dangerous dogs is common sense. I think it's well meaning but ignorant people wanting to ban schutzhund too ("well of course people shouldn't be allowed to train dogs how to attack people! That's just common sense!")

Although I imagine the Kennel Club won't move a muscle to help the sport out, I doubt they're behind attempts to ban it. Why would they bother? Schutzhund is no threat to them - most people couldn't care less about getting a dog with working titles unless they're actually going to work or seriously compete with it, and that's got to be less than a few % of dog owners.

JMO.

I have been lectured in the past by a breed club committee person about Schutzhund involvement who was the most uneductated person I have ever spoken to about the sport. I was also shown the club policy that Schutzhund involvement can result in a membership ban or disciplinary action imposed by the executive. The "sleeve" I was told was a mere ploy to fool people that the dog was equipment focused where in fact they were man focused and could unpredicatbly bite anyone for the thrill of mounting an attack. "Our mission" is to promote the good in the breed not the bad I was told???

I drew my own conclusion from that

[Erny]

I have had people coming to me from the very same breed and training groups that we speak of, telling me this is what they know as a result of being told. So I think the 'story' (myth) is driven from someone's and/or some org's agenda and in that respect, I believe that K9Nev is more on the button.

Oh really? Fair enough then. I've got to ask though... whose agenda? And why? It doesn't seem to me that schutzhund is much of a threat to the kennel club simply because the kennel club is much larger, much better known, and much better funded (well, it is over here, anyway - I presume it's the same in Oz?)

I don't know the intricacies of it all as I'm not involved in the breed, but this is the somewhat simplified summary of how I understand it :

The FAI is the German "Mother Club" of GSD's. Their policies dictate that to be able to be recognised by them and to breed, the breeding stock needs to have successfully completed Level III (I think) in Schutzhund (conformation AND character assessment being intrinsically necessary to meet the FAI's standards). Many of the GSD's that are breeding stock and have been bred out here would not be able to meet the standards of this level of Schutzhund, and/or perhaps the people who own these dogs would not have the time to dedicate to such a refined and exact sport even if they were. The argument from here to the FAI has been, in the past, that Schutzhund Sport is illegal out here and on that basis the FAI should not expect or insist on passing the prescribed Schutzhund Level as the "character/temperament" assessment component of their policy. That's been a bit of untruth, I believe, as Schutzhund, especially back then, had not been proclaimed as being illegal here. But it would be easier to be able to by-pass the requirement if Schutzhund Character Assessment requirement if it was indeed made illegal.

This is the essence of it and every time it has come up here on DOL, there are many who rise to knock it on its head. I'm even likely to cop a ing for bringing it up here now. But it is the one explanation that makes so much sense. Otherwise, with all the petitioning; explaining; submissions; and so on and so forth, why has it been fraught with so much negativity? And why aren't the Breed Clubs involved, strongly in favour of it?

Edited June 12, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I'm kind of glad I stuck to the mallies.

[Erny]

Interesting thanks! So the kennel club *possibly* would prefer schutzhund to be illegal so there is no possibility that kennel club dogs will need to pass a schutzhund title to be recognised by the FAI?

Yes - that's how I understand it.

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I've had the reasons explained to me, but not being directly involved, I tend to forget some of these things and I would need to hand this over to someone who does fully appreciate the inner workings of the breeds and breed organisations to answer properly. But my guess is that the FAI is held in great esteem (should I say, "the ultimate"?) and to have a GSD acknowledged and recognised by it would be one of the higher marks of excellence reflecting on your breeding stock.

I think also there is some "Title" or trophy that GSD owner/breeders would be honoured to achieve, but that "Title" or trophy is under the auspice of the FAI and wouldn't be attainable if you didn't have the qualifying credentials behind you in the first place.

I guess. I'm sure I'm being too simplistic in my answer and stand to be corrected for it.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Erny

[Staranais]

But, how does that work - does the FAI actually hold any sway over the kennel club anyway - do Aussie breeders care if they are no longer recognised by the FAI? What would the consequences be if the FAI no longer recognised Aussie KC german shepherds?

I've had the reasons explained to me, but not being directly involved, I tend to forget some of these things and I would need to hand this over to someone who does fully appreciate the inner workings of the breeds and breed organisations to answer properly. But my guess is that the FAI is held in great esteem (should I say, "the ultimate"?) and to have a GSD acknowledged and recognised by it would be one of the higher marks of excellence reflecting on your breeding stock.

I guess. I'm sure I'm being too simplistic in my answer and stand to be corrected for it.

Perhaps I need to go bug the GSD people with my questions then (or maybe one will see this thread and explain?)

Thanks Erny!

[SkySoaringMagpie]

It's not just restricted to Schutzhund.

I have been showing a sighthound bred from country of origin hunting parents who are proven on traditional game. As is usual for show world, a few people have told me that I can't be sure she is pure and that hunting stock is unreliable for the show ring. Others have sledged her to judges forgetting I have friends around the place who will tell me what they are saying. Or perhaps they intend it to get back to me. Whatever, it's all a bit toxic. It's not just restricted to my breed either, other hound people who use COO or hunting stock cop it as well.

Plenty of show people won't lure course/earthdog/whatever so show people not supporting schutzhund is far from surprising. Often the excuse you will get re coursing is around injury, and it is true that you can get injuries coursing (lure or OFC) that will end a show career. And certainly, as you can't get an ANKC title and OFC is illegal it's also perhaps a little pointless to go to the effort and risk for no payoff. Still, it's hard not to wonder if people aren't missing an important examination of their stock.

[K9Nev]

I have had people coming to me from the very same breed and training groups that we speak of, telling me this is what they know as a result of being told. So I think the 'story' (myth) is driven from someone's and/or some org's agenda and in that respect, I believe that K9Nev is more on the button.

Oh really? Fair enough then. I've got to ask though... whose agenda? And why? It doesn't seem to me that schutzhund is much of a threat to the kennel club simply because the kennel club is much larger, much better known, and much better funded (well, it is over here, anyway - I presume it's the same in Oz?)

From what I understand of the situation Staranais, the breed clubs have an alliance with the world controlling body of some breeds and are required to comply with the standards and practices of the controlling body to register dogs recognised as that particular breed. If the controlling body revokes the breed club's rights to use their breed name, they can no longer formally register dogs under that breed and would need to create another dog breed as a consequence.

One particular breed that requires a Schutzhund title along with the relevent health and endurance tests to be eligible for breeding and shows, was given an exception from the working requirement in Australia on the basis that Schutzhund was illegal and not supported by the ANKC. When the controlling body found out that Schutzhund wasn't illegal at all, they placed the breed club on notice to comply with the full breeding requirements for the breed which meant, they were going to have to Schutzhund title breeding stock to qualify???.

Some how as the situation was unfolding between the controlling body and Australian breed club, Schutzhund was officially banned in Victoria by legislation which is the legislation that the breed club provided to the controlling body to secure their working ability exemption to continue their rights of reproducing the breed. I don't know this for a fact, but there is a strong suspicion of evidence that this breed club was the primary motivator in support that Schutzhund titled dogs were dangerous and provided a major influence for the Victorian government to ban bite related training activity.

The bottom line as I see it, is that if the breed club was forced to comply with the controlling bodies requirements, every breeder could only use titled dogs in their breeding practices otherwise their dogs could not be registered with the particular breed name. The "agenda" although there a quite a few imported titled males in this country, there are few if any titled bitches at all. What it would mean, is that they would need to either import some titled bitches to continue breeding, or grab a leash and head down to the Schutzhund club to do some serious training which most breeders I wouldln't image would want the added responsibility of training and titling their dogs, let alone uncover their former breeding stock's inability to comply with the breed standards when failling workability tests.

There would be massive repercussion and fallout across the breed if Schutzhund testing was made compulsory which I think is a great motivator to have the sport banned and gotten rid of before this situation has the potential to take place