Regarding Breed Size And Coat Type.

[Esky the husky]

A while ago I was reading a thread about bull terriers with great interest.

I read something along the line of you can mate a normal sized bull terrier to a miniature bull terrier and then the puppies get registered as Mini Bull Terriers.

This got me wondering about all the dogs that come in a variety of sizes, poodles, schnauzers, dachshunds, xolos etc ..

Does the same apply to them? Or would the puppies from a mini poodle mated t a toy one be considered mutts?

Is the difference between a miniature dachshund and a standard dachshund the same as the difference between a can of coke and a 600ml bottle of coke?

Same drink different size.

Or is it like the difference between Coke and Pepsi? Totally separate unrelated drinks.?

And what about dogs with different coat types. Are long and short haired Chihuahuas the same thing, or does a variation in coat type make them a different cup of tea entirely?

(I'm not trying to poke fun at any breeders, I'm just asking these questions to satisfy my own curiosity

[Rysup]

It varies between breeds. Some size or coat variations can be intermated, some cannot. Sometimes its allowed for a period of time, maybe when numbers are getting low.

Poodles cannot be interbred. Each size is its own breed. Same for German Sptiz (Mittel) & (Klein). But Collie (Rough) & (Smooth) can cross over I believe. Chihuahua's can interbreed as well, and still be registered as their respective coat type.

[Gayle.]

Poodles cannot be interbred. Each size is its own breed.

That's interesting. So an oversized toy, is still a toy even if it's the size of a miniature poodle?

[Rysup]

Yep. Sure is!

I am sure though that way back when, they used to allow some size interbreeding, but not now, its closed books. If one size was to fall into disrepair, they may open the books up again and allow interbreeding then.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Rysup

[Dogsfevr]

schnauzers are there own breed ,no intermixing of sizes.

Dachshunds especially std longs can produce smooth/longs especially if heavily breed for US based dogs where interbreeding the coats is allowed.

I believe they are registered as there coat type

[Greytmate]

The three sized schnauzers have very different temperaments too. I will let a schnauzer person explain that more fully.

In breeds where interbreeding of coat type is allowed, you would expect the same consequences if you breed exclusively for coat type as you would if breeding exclusively for colour. Good conformation and temperament may deteriorate in those lines if all other qualities are being disregarded in favour of 'rare' colour or coat.

[Mim]

What about with Belgian Shepherds? My memory is telling me that two of the types can mix?

[Wazzat Xolo]

Good point, it seems sad that a small Xolo 25cm will compete against a 60cm Xolo but thats the way the cookie criumbles ! lol

The Xoloitzcuintle

Three sizes

Standard

Intermediate

Miniature

and two types

Hairless

Coated (not able to be shown in Australia)

No breeding bewteen the sizes

Hairless to hairless mating all puppies can be main registered

Hairless to Coated mating ONLY hairless puppies can be registered.

All sizes and both coated and hairless xoloitzcuintle should exhibit the same outline and characteristics.

If a miniature Xolo or Intermediate xolo grows too tall they can be reg as the next size up ( no downsizing)

If a Standard is too tall (over 62cm) then that is a DQ fault.

The ANKC has a much longer version of what I have just said

ANKC POLICY ON XOLOITZCUINTLE

(Approved 2010)

Group 7 – Non Sporting

Registration to commence immediately and showing to commence on the 1 July 2010

GENERAL INFORMATION

There are six (6) varieties of the Xoloitzcuintle – Miniature, Xoloitzcuintle Hairless – Miniature, Xoloitzcuintle Coated - Intermediate, Xoloitzcuintle Hairless - Intermediate, Xoloitzcuintle Coated – Standard Xoloitzcuintle Hairless and the Standard Xoloitzcuintle Coated. These are the names used for the purpose of registration and exhibiting.

The Federación Canófila Mexicana advise that each variety is to receive a set of challenge certificates and interbreeding between the breeds/Varieties is NOT allowed. Only the hairless dogs are eligible to be shown and Hairless dogs are eligible to be registered. Coated dogs are not eligible to be shown, but are eligible to be registered if they are the progeny of a Hairless to a Hairless breeding.

ANKC POLICY

The six (6) varieties/Breeds of Xoloitzcuintle Dogs shall be known as:

• Xoloitzcuintle Hairless Dog – Miniature.

• Xoloitzcuintle Coated Dog – Miniature (Not eligible to be shown).

• Xoloitzcuintle Hairless Dog – Intermediate.

• Xoloitzcuintle Coated Dog – Intermediate (Not eligible to be shown).

• Xoloitzcuintle Hairless Dog – Standard.

• Xoloitzcuintle Coated Dog – Standard (Not eligible to be shown).

Only the three [3] hairless varieties will be eligible to be shown and will receive a separate set of challenge certificates for each of these varieties.

Hairless dogs as described in the standard are eligible to be registered on the ANKC Main Pure Breed Register without conditions, or if the breeder decides the Limited Pure Breed Register.

Only coated dogs that are the progeny of a Hairless to a Hairless mating are eligible to be registered on the ANKC Main Pure Breed Register.

Any Coated dog resulting from Hairless to a Coated mating can only be registered on the ANKC Limited Register and Marked “Not to be upgraded and not eligible to be issued with an Export Certificate/Pedigree”.

Inter- breeding of the varieties/Breeds NOT is permitted.

Dogs are to be registered in accordance with their expected size and will be permitted to be reclassified if the dog is 2 cm above the size as per the Standard for dogs registered as a Miniature or Intermediate. Dogs that do not reach size as per the Standard are to be de-registered. For details on the how a Xoloitzcuintle can be reclassified refer to ANKC Regulations Part 6 Clause 9.20

Rationale: This notice is based on information supplied by the Mexican Kennel Club, the Country of Origin of the Breed and therefore the Controlling Body for the Breed.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Wazzat Xolo

[Christina]

Poodles cannot be interbred. Each size is its own breed.

That's interesting. So an oversized toy, is still a toy even if it's the size of a miniature poodle?

Correct, & must be registered as a toy. In Europe they have Dwarf size, which is in between toy & miniature size, which is a sensible way to go as a toy thats over size by say 1 inch is hardly a miniature size anyway.

Funny how the rules are variable according to the breed of dog. The cats I breed are siamese, oriental & balinese. All 3 can be interbred & registered. It makes it very interesting. Outcome of variety in litters is somewhat predictatable for colour & coat according to & depending on pedigree but still throws some suprises.

[Alyosha]

What about with Belgian Shepherds? My memory is telling me that two of the types can mix?

I'm no Belgian expert but as far as I know Groens and Tervs can interbreed, but not the other two.

[SkySoaringMagpie]

And what about dogs with different coat types. Are long and short haired Chihuahuas the same thing, or does a variation in coat type make them a different cup of tea entirely?

In Salukis the feathered and smooth are the same dog - you can get feathered and smooth in the same litter, the pups are registered as salukis, are shown together in the same classes - a smooth dog can (and usually does here in the West) have one feathered parent.

If people are interested in more information about smooths the latest issue of Saluki Insights has a smooth feature: www.salukiinsights.com

[SparkyTansy]

Weimaraners and Weimaraner Longhairs can be interbred. You can have LH and SH in the same litter. They are registered as either weimaraner or weimaraner longhair and are shown separately...

The reason they are allowed to be interbred is because of the very few LH there are in Australia. The ratio is still very small and yet they are trying to change this. Hopefully they won't be successful....

With the Intermixing selection, not sure 100% but I remember reading that there were some unusual problems in the US with weims when they tried to breed out the LH completely. LH are a disqualifying fault in the US and not shown.

[cassie]

I find it interesting that some different coat types can come from the same litter (Weims for example, thanks SparkyTansy) but are then registered as seperate varieties and shown seperately. Why is this? In my own breed Saints, rough (loong) coats and smooth (short) coats can and do come in the same litter, but all are registered as Saint Bernards and all are shown together, there are no seperate classes. Why is it different for some breeds? Sure makes things a bit confusing.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Try the Xoloitzcuintle

IE a coated puppy from two Hairless parents can be registered.

A coated puppy from a Coated and hairless parent cant be registered.

The miniature and the standard are shown against each other for BOB!

[cassie]

Try the Xoloitzcuintle

IE a coated puppy from two Hairless parents can be registered.

A coated puppy from a Coated and hairless parent cant be registered.

Now that is hard to get your head around! :rolleyes: Why can a coated pup from two hairless parents be registered?

[shortstep]

Border collies come in both smooth and rough and both coats are crossed around the world, in kennel clubs and working registries.

Rough is recessive and smooth is dominate.

Only exception is the ANKC where they only accept rough coat. Which is very odd as the smooth coat is by far and away the most common and functional coat for the real working border collies in Australia.

ANKC also only accepts Tri colour on black dogs, when the whole world knows and accepts it appears on all colours and there is no reason on earth to care if a dog of any colour is tri. ANKC also does not accept many of the other colours found in the breed and are registered world wide wide.

Edited June 7, 2010 by shortstep

[Wazzat Xolo]

Try the Xoloitzcuintle

IE a coated puppy from two Hairless parents can be registered.

A coated puppy from a Coated and hairless parent cant be registered.

Now that is hard to get your head around! Why can a coated pup from two hairless parents be registered?

The official reason is (" FCM which is the Federacion Canofila Mexicana aka Mexican Kennel Club say its ok)

FCM accepted the coated as part of the breed for BREEDING purpose only. Breed clubs allow coateds to be shown UNOFFICIALLY! In some countries they are shown, but there is a minority of countries that are willing to go against the breed standard and give them titles.

E.G Russia and France...

In Russia you can't breed a coated xolo, to a hairless nor a coated. You can show them at specialties, and they can get the club championship, but that's it!

France, you can show your coated xolo and get the title.

I guess not all countries follow the FCI or the country of origin,

The Peruvian Hairless which is a totally different dog states the coated Peruvians as a fault and it cannot be shown, from resaerch the peruvian coats can be long, short, wavy, curly, they appear to be not as uniform as the Xolo, but then again the Peruvian pedigree does not appear to be as stable as the Xolo either, one of the reasons I did not research this breed further due to the muddled pedigrees in some.

[Diva]

What about with Belgian Shepherds? My memory is telling me that two of the types can mix?

I believe the rule on inter-variety breedings for Belgians has been different at different times and in different countries, as some of the varieties have had small gene pools at some points in history.

Currently in Australia inter-variety breeding is not allowed, except with specific permission from the ANKC and that is only to be given with serious and strong evidence of the benefit.

Even with such permisson only the following breedings can be approved. Progeny are then registered according to their variety (eg coat colour and length)

Groenendael x Tervueren

Tervueren x Malinois

Laekenois x Malinois

Edited June 7, 2010 by Diva

[Esky the husky]

Wow, this is all so interesting!

I guess there are really no hard and fast rules then.

[nobul]

The reason for the interbreeding of the bull terrier and miniature was a health one, to try and lessen the PLL situation and increase the gene pool of the breed, as bull terriers do not have heriditory PLL. As of October last year the gene responsible was discovered and we can now DNA test for it, interbreeding in this country is to continue until i think 2013?

The ANKC has made this decision and was not one taken lightly. UK , NZKC and other kennel clubs around the world have also made the same decision.

Interbreeding between varietys is not common and only few breeds are allowable by the ANKC