How To Correct A "delicate" Dog?

[lovemesideways]

Just reading through this - you did not get your pup until 16 weeks and he is now 5.5 months so really that is not a very long time with you and it osund slike he had not had a lot of experience with the world before you. Do you know much of his up bringing until he came to you. Is it possible that someone was a little heavy handed with him?

I would be looking at building up the relationship with you so that he thinks you are the best person in the world as well as doing collar grab games as suggested by Agility Dogs. And at this stage I would not be physically placing him into position. Keep training upbeat, fun and reward heavily to build up value. If he misses something just give a no reward marker and try again. I would aim for lots of short session through the day with a high success rate. If you are not getting 80 - 90% success rate then lower the criteria so he can get it right and build confidence.

Good luck.

he was with his breeder for longer due to the mum getting ill, and there is no way she was heavy handed with him. I think its more likely that he never ever had anyone so much as raise there voice in his presence till he came to my place.

What ways would you suggest for continuing to build our relationship?

And what sort of Collar grabbing game

Just be careful with free shaping. Some dogs find it stressful. Erik LOVES it, but he's persistent and outgoing and drivey. Kivi is not persistent or drivey and he much prefers targeting. He gets very excited about targeting. Free shaping will see him lying on the ground whining and refusing to engage at all.

That's a good point. Rover my older boy is a huge fan of free shaping. He knows when its gonna happen and the tail starts wagging like mad!

Thanks everyone for all the comments !!!!!!!

[huski]

Just a question, what do you classify as happy, positive and drivey behaviour?

I'm not AD, but for me a dog who is happy, positive and drivey is working with serious enthusiasm. Tail up and wagging, eyes bright, excited, focused, responds to commands sharply and quickly.

This is Daisy working at her drive-iest;

She actually missed a few commands because I revved her up a bit too much, but that is easily fixed.

Edited June 5, 2010 by huski

[piper]

What ways would you suggest for continuing to build our relationship?

And what sort of Collar grabbing game

Thanks everyone for all the comments !!!!!!!

Relationship building - keep things fun and happy. The best things come from you. You could even hand feed for the majority of his food so that you build your own value to him.

Collar grabbing - have a handful of his favourite treats cut up small and start out with touch collar, feed, touch collar feed. Build up a positive association between hand coming towards him and food. As he gets excited about this build up to grabbing and holding his collar and feeding. Start to use sudden rushing movements as you do it and always follow up with high value rewards. I used to get my puppy classes to do this as it is handy for teaching a dog not to panic if you need to lunge and grab in an emergency situation.

[Danois]

My dog was like that - what I described as a 'soft' temperament. He was very good at shutting down and then avoidance.

But what he learnt was if he went into shut down then I would back off and leave him alone so he'd offer that behaviour to get out of what I was asking of him. So he was winning and it was undermining my leadership.

Diagnosis - he is a bastard!

He does not have a lot of drive and will do things sedately but solidly.

I really saw a change in him once I started doing a lot of clicker work with him (as part of training challenges we do in the dane thread). I was able to use the clicker to build up things and reshape behaviour. Previously I could not spray him with a spray bottle - he now lets me do it without issue.

He would run away and avoid if I tried to give him tablets - he now stands there and lets me open his mouth and put them in.

I also saw K9 Force.

[Agility Dogs]

Just a question, what do you classify as happy, positive and drivey behaviour?

I'm not AD, but for me a dog who is happy, positive and drivey is working with serious enthusiasm. Tail up and wagging, eyes bright, excited, focused, responds to commands sharply and quickly.

This is Daisy working at her drive-iest;

She actually missed a few commands because I revved her up a bit too much, but that is easily fixed.

Yep. That's what I'm looking for. A dog who really wants to play and really wants to be with me. If that means I only get 15 seconds every 10 minutes then I'm happy with that - as long as that is what I am getting.

At the moment I would rather a couple of missed hurdles at a million miles an hour than a perfect run that is so careful I have to fun slowly.

[Agility Dogs]

My dog was like that - what I described as a 'soft' temperament. He was very good at shutting down and then avoidance.

But what he learnt was if he went into shut down then I would back off and leave him alone so he'd offer that behaviour to get out of what I was asking of him. So he was winning and it was undermining my leadership.

Diagnosis - he is a bastard!

He does not have a lot of drive and will do things sedately but solidly.

I really saw a change in him once I started doing a lot of clicker work with him (as part of training challenges we do in the dane thread). I was able to use the clicker to build up things and reshape behaviour. Previously I could not spray him with a spray bottle - he now lets me do it without issue.

He would run away and avoid if I tried to give him tablets - he now stands there and lets me open his mouth and put them in.

I also saw K9 Force.

From what I've been told k9 Force's methods are very similar to what I've been shown of late. What you are describing is exactly what I experienced. Seriously - the only difference was that CK was labelled a BRAT! I think bastard is probably more appropriate. LOL.

WRT the shutting down with free shaping - I got a bit of that at first, but then I rewarded even the smallest inclination to return to work. ie: if he rolled on his back and stopped, then he would be rewarded for getting back onto his feet. (yes, this did happen at first). Now he just starts to offer behaviour when we start the game.

[huski]

Yep. That's what I'm looking for. A dog who really wants to play and really wants to be with me. If that means I only get 15 seconds every 10 minutes then I'm happy with that - as long as that is what I am getting.

At the moment I would rather a couple of missed hurdles at a million miles an hour than a perfect run that is so careful I have to fun slowly.

I too would rather short bursts of 110% than less than that for a longer period of time

[sas]

I never physically force my dogs to do anything, even if they have ignored a cue (though it is extremely rare). If that happens, I ignore them or put them away (if they are a trained adult dog with good proofing).

For a puppy who may not understand a cue or is too distracted, I give them the benefit of the doubt and ask again. If they still ignore the cue I know that I haven't trained it well enough for that environment or that I'm not rewarding them enough.

I agree with Vickie - I would try to use a technique that does not require physical direction.

Me neither......you just need a Dane to teach you that there's no point trying to force a dog to do something....try and force a Dane to drop

Realisticaly if they don't do a command I have trained them in then I'm led to believe

A) They don't fully understand the command

B) The command isn't proofed yet in different environments

C) My command wasn't clear enough

D) The dog doesn't have enough drive to do it

This is an old video, it's of my then 7 year old Dane who is drivey:

She's very different to my boy who need high rewards and constant feedback.

Edited June 5, 2010 by sas

[huski]

This is an old video, it's of my then 7 year old Dane who is drivey:

She's very different to my boy who need high rewards and constant feedback.

Wow Sas she's awesome! Fastest Dane I've ever seen!!

[sas]

Just a question, what do you classify as happy, positive and drivey behaviour?

I'm not AD, but for me a dog who is happy, positive and drivey is working with serious enthusiasm. Tail up and wagging, eyes bright, excited, focused, responds to commands sharply and quickly.

This is Daisy working at her drive-iest;

She actually missed a few commands because I revved her up a bit too much, but that is easily fixed.

What a lovely girl, I bet you're super proud of her.

Edited June 5, 2010 by sas

[sas]

This is an old video, it's of my then 7 year old Dane who is drivey:

She's very different to my boy who need high rewards and constant feedback.

Wow Sas she's awesome! Fastest Dane I've ever seen!!

Yeah she's a nut bag, that was the only type of training we could get her to respond to and although I don't train her anymore, her previous drive training comes right back when I try it with her.

[huski]

What a lovely girl, I bet you're super proud of her.

Thanks Sas, yes very proud of my little beag

Yeah she's a nut bag, that was the only type of training we could get her to respond to and although I don't train her anymore, her previous drive training comes right back when I try it with her.

Her enthusiasm is awesome! Do you see many Danes with that speediness/drive?

Edited June 5, 2010 by huski

[sas]

What a lovely girl, I bet you're super proud of her.

Thanks Sas, yes very proud of my little beag

Yeah she's a nut bag, that was the only type of training we could get her to respond to and although I don't train her anymore, her previous drive training comes right back when I try it with her.

Her enthusiasm is awesome! Do you see many Danes with that speediness/drive?

Yes and No. They are more than capable of it, sadly some people use the breed name as an excuse for slow lazy behaviour, they were bred for their drive as they needed it to do the jobs required of them.

Some are completely void of obvious drive though LOL

Edited June 5, 2010 by sas

[Cosmolo]

Great videos!! I have 2 danes (from the same breeder, owned by the same person) at advanced training who really are terrific- not quite as quick as your girl Sas, but pretty impressive all the same. They sure can do it!

Targetting and then free shaping is great to build confidence for many dogs

[lovemesideways]

Wow love the drive of your dogs guys!

So how can I get my slow deliberate lab to be that hyped up and fast ? I have never seen him like that. I'll get a really intense focus, and a slow thinking movement. Hes very deliberate with what he does.

What ways are there to build his drive?

I want him to be calm and relaxed, but would like to be able to jump into training and for him to get excited and drivey!

[huski]

Wow love the drive of your dogs guys!

So how can I get my slow deliberate lab to be that hyped up and fast ? I have never seen him like that. I'll get a really intense focus, and a slow thinking movement. Hes very deliberate with what he does.

What ways are there to build his drive?

I want him to be calm and relaxed, but would like to be able to jump into training and for him to get excited and drivey!

I did K9 Pro's training in drive package, which has been great for Daisy and I I know there are some good DVDs out there too, I've heard the Ian Balabanov ones are supposed to be a good introduction to drive building.

[corvus]

I think it depends on how naturally drivey your dog is. There are arguments that you can't build drive in an adult dog and that you can only build it a finite amount in a puppy, which is pre-determined by their genetics.

[huski]

I think it depends on how naturally drivey your dog is. There are arguments that you can't build drive in an adult dog and that you can only build it a finite amount in a puppy, which is pre-determined by their genetics.

Sure, you have to work with what you've got genetically but I started drive training with a two year old dog who isn't particularly high drive and we've made great progress. I'd like anyone who argues you can't build drive in an adult dog to meet her and then try to tell me it won't work She will never have as much drive as a working line Mal but we do ok.

Edited June 6, 2010 by huski

[corvus]

Well, the argument goes you can build plenty of anticipation for a drive reward in an adult dog. Considering drive building in a puppy also incorporates a lot of building of anticipation, it does look the same for the most part. The difference is that the effects of anticipation are arousal, whereas the effects of building drive is.... more drive.

Jury's still out in all the discussions I've had, though.

[lovemesideways]

I don't know how much prey drive Riddick has, I've seen a bird fly past his nose and he sneezed... that was it

But he will go crazy for food!! True labrador.

Any suggestions on DVDs?