How To Correct A "delicate" Dog?

[lovemesideways]

So my Labrador Riddick is about 5 and a 1/2 months, and hes just such a wuss!

We where out today, and I was doing a bit of training, so I gave him the hand signal, and told him to "down". He just looked at me.. and did nothing.

The way I've been taught is that, if you tell you dog to do something, and they don't do it, you make them.

So I gently tugged his collar to put him in a down position. (and I do mean gently, like 1 finger pressure)

And you would seriously think that I had just Screamed at him and beaten him the way he acts. He pins his ears back, tail tucks under, crouches down. So I released him and he slinks around, keeping a close eye on me. If I step towards him suddenly at this point and reach out like I'm going to grab his collar he Cowers.

I tried to just ignored this, had a bit of play, then went back into training. His recall was good (though ears still pinned back), then I asked him to "down" again with hand signal. and he pins his ears back, tucks his tail under, and looks basically scared for his life.

Hes just so "delicate". I don't know how I can correct him ignoring a command (he knows what down + hand signal means), if even a tiny tug makes him cower.

I really have no idea.

I wonder if its related to the fact that he greets everyone in the world the same way, except me. He runs up, super happy tail-body-wag, if its my mum he'll Race towards her.

If I'm there, he'll trot up, maybe wag his tail a little bit. And thats it.

He greets complete strangers with the whole body-wag, but to me, nothing.

I don't know why.

I'm the one doing all his training, he spend most of his time with me, I feed him at night and give him any treats he gets.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i have a dog that can get upset at my tone of voice. the breed, Boston Terriers, are known to be sensitive to this.

i needed to totally change the way i trained BUT it did make it much easier to let her know when i was displeased, which wasnt often.

because she gets so upset she tries to please so often gets it right. however she is at the moment going through a really stubborn stage so when i say drop and she doesnt, i give her the evil eye and she drops..easy peasy!!!

i would reduce the training for a day and let him settle, then stop feeling sorry for him cause that is what he is picking up on and then start training again practising the evil eye and soft voiced oi's.

[Vickie]

How are you rewarding him when he gets stuff right?

Do you have kids that you yell at sometimes? or a partner or sibling?

My dogs run for cover when I get angry with my kids but luckily it doesn't affect our training relationship. I can certainly see how it could with some dogs though. Do you ever lose your temper with him?

Have you tried clicker training him? It may be a better way to communicate with him for a while as there is no voice or physical touching required.

[huski]

Where did you have him? Was it somewhere new or somewhere with a higher level of distraction than where you normally train? Is it possible that his down command has just not been proofed enough?

If my dog doesn't respond to a command I question why first - how well does she know the command? Is it that she missed it or is it that I haven't proofed it enough under heavy distraction? I teach her that missing a command or not complying with a command means she will not get her reward. How I correct a missed command would depend on why I think she missed it. It would be highly unusual (i.e. never as far as I can remember) that my dog intentionally blows off a command when she's really switched on. It would be far more likely that it was because she was distracted/lacking drive, didn't really understand the command etc. Do you have a no reward marker?

Edited June 4, 2010 by huski

[Erny]

Also, think about whether you (inadvertently or otherwise) reinforce your dog for the extreme submission she seems to be exhibiting, at other times. For example : She greets you in full submission and you tell her she is a good girl, as you bend down to give her a belly rub. Get the picture?

Sometimes this reinforced behaviour changes from what it originally began as (ie submission) and then becomes a learnt response that dogs use to avoid things. That doesn't mean she is being naughty, it just means she's learnt that it works for her. So then it becomes a matter of being calm, being assertive, but gentling her through her misunderstandings so that you can begin to reward her for the more confident behaviour and the command responses that you want.

Perhaps it's a bit about your training technique too - that's not a criticism, it's just that there could be a different way of managing things that is a bit clearer to your dog (if she is confused). Or maybe a different technique would be helpful to her. If she knows "drop" then perhaps if you work on building drive and then using that drive to train in, her confidence will grow and her command responses will be enhanced. That's just one other way, as an example.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Erny

[TerraNik]

I never physically force my dogs to do anything, even if they have ignored a cue (though it is extremely rare). If that happens, I ignore them or put them away (if they are a trained adult dog with good proofing).

For a puppy who may not understand a cue or is too distracted, I give them the benefit of the doubt and ask again. If they still ignore the cue I know that I haven't trained it well enough for that environment or that I'm not rewarding them enough.

I agree with Vickie - I would try to use a technique that does not require physical direction.

[lovemesideways]

i have a dog that can get upset at my tone of voice. the breed, Boston Terriers, are known to be sensitive to this.

i needed to totally change the way i trained BUT it did make it much easier to let her know when i was displeased, which wasnt often.

because she gets so upset she tries to please so often gets it right. however she is at the moment going through a really stubborn stage so when i say drop and she doesnt, i give her the evil eye and she drops..easy peasy!!!

i would reduce the training for a day and let him settle, then stop feeling sorry for him cause that is what he is picking up on and then start training again practising the evil eye and soft voiced oi's.

I think you're right about him picking up on me feeling sorry. I just feel like a evil human being, He cowers! I've never had a dog cower from me before .

How did you change the way you train?

How are you rewarding him when he gets stuff right?

Do you have kids that you yell at sometimes? or a partner or sibling?

My dogs run for cover when I get angry with my kids but luckily it doesn't affect our training relationship. I can certainly see how it could with some dogs though. Do you ever lose your temper with him?

Have you tried clicker training him? It may be a better way to communicate with him for a while as there is no voice or physical touching required.

When He gets something right I'll mark it with "Yes!" or a clicker, and then a treat.

Never lost my temper with him, I've gotten frustrated but whenever that happens I'll just end whatever I'm doing and walk away.

and no yelling in our household. (no kids either!)

We do clicker training but I also spend time just using my voice as a marker.

Where did you have him? Was it somewhere new or somewhere with a higher level of distraction than where you normally train? Is it possible that his down command has just not been proofed enough?

If my dog doesn't respond to a command I question why first - how well does she know the command? Is it that she missed it or is it that I haven't proofed it enough under heavy distraction? I teach her that missing a command or not complying with a command means she will not get her reward. How I correct a missed command would depend on why I think she missed it. It would be highly unusual (i.e. never as far as I can remember) that my dog intentionally blows off a command when she's really switched on. It would be far more likely that it was because she was distracted/lacking drive, didn't really understand the command etc. Do you have a no reward marker?

We where out at the park in the rain. But he has done quite a bit of training in the park and also in the rain, so not a new situation for him.

He wasn't really "into" the training. He would at that point have preferred being off lead for a romp around.

And I yes I have NRM.

[Mas1981]

I say 'too bad' when Mason does not follow a command and I walk away, if i have treats with a high reward value i find him zooming into heel position ready to try and do the exercise again. This seems to work for him, I just say it in an even tone, I dont shout or say it loudly or anything.

[huski]

We where out at the park in the rain. But he has done quite a bit of training in the park and also in the rain, so not a new situation for him.

He wasn't really "into" the training. He would at that point have preferred being off lead for a romp around.

And I yes I have NRM.

So not a new situation for him, but he was heavily distracted and probably a bit disinterested? What does he do if you give him a NRM?

[lovemesideways]

Also, think about whether you (inadvertently or otherwise) reinforce your dog for the extreme submission she seems to be exhibiting, at other times. For example : She greets you in full submission and you tell her she is a good girl, as you bend down to give her a belly rub. Get the picture?

Sometimes this reinforced behaviour changes from what it originally began as (ie submission) and then becomes a learnt response that dogs use to avoid things. That doesn't mean she is being naughty, it just means she's learnt that it works for her. So then it becomes a matter of being calm, being assertive, but gentling her through her misunderstandings so that you can begin to reward her for the more confident behaviour and the command responses that you want.

Perhaps it's a bit about your training technique too - that's not a criticism, it's just that there could be a different way of managing things that is a bit clearer to your dog (if she is confused). Or maybe a different technique would be helpful to her. If she knows "drop" then perhaps if you work on building drive and then using that drive to train in, her confidence will grow and her command responses will be enhanced. That's just one other way, as an example.

I understand what you mean, and I don't believe I ever reward him for acting like that. Inadvertently or otherwise

He get a pat when he greets people (which was another issue, he was afraid of people when I got him at 16 weeks), but that greeting is just a general submissive, head down, tail/body wag. He would roll on his back when I got him, and its never been rewarded so he no longer does it.

The only time he actually acts like that seems to be when he gets "forced" to do something like this. Even though the force used is nothing at all.

Its like he doesn't understand whats going on so he shuts down. Going into this extreme avoidance.

What ways would you suggest for building drive?

I'm thinking maybe I need to take a few steps back, and go back into proofing this at home. To make sure he 100% knows what down means.

[lovemesideways]

We where out at the park in the rain. But he has done quite a bit of training in the park and also in the rain, so not a new situation for him.

He wasn't really "into" the training. He would at that point have preferred being off lead for a romp around.

And I yes I have NRM.

So not a new situation for him, but he was heavily distracted and probably a bit disinterested? What does he do if you give him a NRM?

I would say the distraction wasn't that high, nobody was nearby, so only the rain, and we have worked there at different times with no problem at all. But definitely a little disinterested.

If I say his NRM his ears twitch back and he'll stop what hes doing.

If you so much as raise your voice. He does the same pinned ears, tail tuck, "dear god you've beaten me" look.

Edit to add, maybe I could have some clarification on a NRM? To make sure I'm thinking what you're thinking

Edited June 4, 2010 by lovemesideways

[lovemesideways]

I say 'too bad' when Mason does not follow a command and I walk away, if i have treats with a high reward value i find him zooming into heel position ready to try and do the exercise again. This seems to work for him, I just say it in an even tone, I dont shout or say it loudly or anything.

I've done this, Shrugged and said "Oh well" nice even voice. Walked to the other end of the park. When I turned around he was staying in the position he was in, waiting for me to release him or call him or something. So I called him, and he came galloping up and sat in front of me..

[huski]

I would say the distraction wasn't that high, nobody was nearby, so only the rain, and we have worked there at different times with no problem at all. But definitely a little disinterested.

If I say his NRM his ears twitch back and he'll stop what hes doing.

If you so much as raise your voice. He does the same pinned ears, tail tuck, "dear god you've beaten me" look.

If my dog is a flat or disinterested I do everything I can to pick them up, I would rather have a dog working 110% for basic things over a short period of time rather than have my dog work for less than that for longer - if that makes sense?

Edit to add, maybe I could have some clarification on a NRM? To make sure I'm thinking what you're thinking

I mean what vocal cue you give to tell the dog 'oops, try again'. If I tell Daisy 'no' then she tries something else i.e. if she comes to heel crooked, I say no and she moves her bum in.

[Aidan3]

Some of us train some dogs entirely without corrections at all. Keep reading, keep learning, keep asking questions. If your dog is working for the reinforcer, there is no need to tell him when he has done something wrong, but you do need to learn how to break things down into tiny little pieces.

For very soft dogs and trainers who are not experienced at free shaping, I suggest you incorporate some target training.

[Agility Dogs]

Also, think about whether you (inadvertently or otherwise) reinforce your dog for the extreme submission she seems to be exhibiting, at other times. For example : She greets you in full submission and you tell her she is a good girl, as you bend down to give her a belly rub. Get the picture?

Oh yes......

My boy is VERY much like this, or at least he was until it was pointed out to me. Now he does what I tell him before getting to do anything else - I don't necessarily force him to do something, but we will keep at the task until I get something resembling it (an effort of some sort), then we move onto something really rewarding. Some dogs give you the finger by running off, others do it by being 'naughty', my boy did it by 'shutting down'.

First thing I did (under the guidance of a very experienced trainer) was to look for any physical problems with my vet - we found low calcium was an issue - and then set about putting rules in place for him. Not rules to control him, rules to unleash him. He is ONLY rewarded for positive, happy and drivey behaviour, everything else is met with indifference. BUT he is not allowed to shut down. If he does we continue at the task at hand until I get something from him. BUT at the start of the project he spent a lot of time in his crate and only worked for VERY short periods before going away again.

Now he will work for ages before even looking like quitting.

The other thing is that you could spend a LOT of time reinforcing having his collar grabbed. I went from CK cowering when I did it to now being really revved up because it's often the start of a game.

Something I found REALLY increased CK's confidence if free shaping. We started with something very simple like two feet in a box and have now moved to walking backwards up stairs. It has taught him that it is OK to fail and try again and if you do try again you get a nice big reward for your troubles.

He isn't quite where I want him, but we are well on the way.

To this:

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

i have a dog that can get upset at my tone of voice. the breed, Boston Terriers, are known to be sensitive to this.

i needed to totally change the way i trained BUT it did make it much easier to let her know when i was displeased, which wasnt often.

because she gets so upset she tries to please so often gets it right. however she is at the moment going through a really stubborn stage so when i say drop and she doesnt, i give her the evil eye and she drops..easy peasy!!!

i would reduce the training for a day and let him settle, then stop feeling sorry for him cause that is what he is picking up on and then start training again practising the evil eye and soft voiced oi's.

I think you're right about him picking up on me feeling sorry. I just feel like a evil human being, He cowers! I've never had a dog cower from me before .

How did you change the way you train?

How are you rewarding him when he gets stuff right?

Do you have kids that you yell at sometimes? or a partner or sibling?

My dogs run for cover when I get angry with my kids but luckily it doesn't affect our training relationship. I can certainly see how it could with some dogs though. Do you ever lose your temper with him?

Have you tried clicker training him? It may be a better way to communicate with him for a while as there is no voice or physical touching required.

When He gets something right I'll mark it with "Yes!" or a clicker, and then a treat.

Never lost my temper with him, I've gotten frustrated but whenever that happens I'll just end whatever I'm doing and walk away.

and no yelling in our household. (no kids either!)

We do clicker training but I also spend time just using my voice as a marker.

Where did you have him? Was it somewhere new or somewhere with a higher level of distraction than where you normally train? Is it possible that his down command has just not been proofed enough?

If my dog doesn't respond to a command I question why first - how well does she know the command? Is it that she missed it or is it that I haven't proofed it enough under heavy distraction? I teach her that missing a command or not complying with a command means she will not get her reward. How I correct a missed command would depend on why I think she missed it. It would be highly unusual (i.e. never as far as I can remember) that my dog intentionally blows off a command when she's really switched on. It would be far more likely that it was because she was distracted/lacking drive, didn't really understand the command etc. Do you have a no reward marker?

We where out at the park in the rain. But he has done quite a bit of training in the park and also in the rain, so not a new situation for him.

He wasn't really "into" the training. He would at that point have preferred being off lead for a romp around.

And I yes I have NRM.

i am an assertive person and most dogs woud see me as the leader so i had to be very careful that i didnt over use this. by that i mean i had to be very aware of my body language and tone of voice.

i started getting Jaxx to feel confident that she knew what i wanted. i went back to basics. what surprised me was that if i excitedly praised her it caused the same reaction so i had to change that and i now calmly parise with a subdued "good girl".

once i became more calm in my approach she seemed to get that everything was ok. she is also quite stubborn, for instance she knows drop but sometimes she will only go half down as she is looking at me. now if she is in a drop whilst i am preparing her dinner and she is watching from the kitchen door, i say nothing but i stop preparing her dinner and look at her. she then drops and i start preparing her dinner again. so i tend to be very gentle with her.

training was all about me understanding my training style and trial and error with what works for her.

she is now much more confident and never crouches or recoils from me.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[corvus]

I'm with TerraNik all the way.

I was surprised, Erik's downs are quite good and he does them reliably in a whole lot of situations, but the other day I asked for one before letting him out the door to lick Kivi's bowl when Kivi had finished his dinner. He just looked at me like I was mad. Are you serious? I don't have to down to go out the door unless you're on the other side of it. That's the rule. I basically had to use the old signal from puppy days with my hand right on the floor. He's okay with it now, though. Sometimes dogs are pretty discriminating. More so than we are.

I find that it's very rare for Erik to blow off a cue he knows. If I've done my job right he has such a good reward history for it that something would have to be wrong for him to not do it when asked. In this case, it was sheer confusion, I think. I'd changed a long-standing rule on him all of a sudden. Kivi is a more independent dog, but he's even more reliable as a general rule.

[lovemesideways]

Also, think about whether you (inadvertently or otherwise) reinforce your dog for the extreme submission she seems to be exhibiting, at other times. For example : She greets you in full submission and you tell her she is a good girl, as you bend down to give her a belly rub. Get the picture?

Oh yes......

My boy is VERY much like this, or at least he was until it was pointed out to me. Now he does what I tell him before getting to do anything else - I don't necessarily force him to do something, but we will keep at the task until I get something resembling it (an effort of some sort), then we move onto something really rewarding. Some dogs give you the finger by running off, others do it by being 'naughty', my boy did it by 'shutting down'.

First thing I did (under the guidance of a very experienced trainer) was to look for any physical problems with my vet - we found low calcium was an issue - and then set about putting rules in place for him. Not rules to control him, rules to unleash him. He is ONLY rewarded for positive, happy and drivey behaviour, everything else is met with indifference. BUT he is not allowed to shut down. If he does we continue at the task at hand until I get something from him. BUT at the start of the project he spent a lot of time in his crate and only worked for VERY short periods before going away again.

Now he will work for ages before even looking like quitting.

The other thing is that you could spend a LOT of time reinforcing having his collar grabbed. I went from CK cowering when I did it to now being really revved up because it's often the start of a game.

Something I found REALLY increased CK's confidence if free shaping. We started with something very simple like two feet in a box and have now moved to walking backwards up stairs. It has taught him that it is OK to fail and try again and if you do try again you get a nice big reward for your troubles.

He isn't quite where I want him, but we are well on the way.

To this:

Thanks for this post, I found it really helpful!

Just a question, what do you classify as happy, positive and drivey behaviour?

I've been observing everything hes been doing and trying to watch for any kind of overly submissive action. The only thing I've see is when I was giving him a good rub, he was lying down in front of me, and he rolled onto his back, so I stopped patting, waited for him to get up again, and then continued patting.

I'm really going to have to rethink the way I'm going to train my boy. I've never had a dog to train that needed this kind of touch

They say "you don't get the dog you think you want, you get the dog you need"

Definitely going to be starting on more freeshaping tomorrow.

i am an assertive person and most dogs woud see me as the leader so i had to be very careful that i didnt over use this. by that i mean i had to be very aware of my body language and tone of voice.

i started getting Jaxx to feel confident that she knew what i wanted. i went back to basics. what surprised me was that if i excitedly praised her it caused the same reaction so i had to change that and i now calmly parise with a subdued "good girl".

once i became more calm in my approach she seemed to get that everything was ok. she is also quite stubborn, for instance she knows drop but sometimes she will only go half down as she is looking at me. now if she is in a drop whilst i am preparing her dinner and she is watching from the kitchen door, i say nothing but i stop preparing her dinner and look at her. she then drops and i start preparing her dinner again. so i tend to be very gentle with her.

training was all about me understanding my training style and trial and error with what works for her.

she is now much more confident and never crouches or recoils from me.

Thanks for this

I'm naturally very calm and assertive. I don't have a problem with this. I think I'm going to have to learn to be more relaxed and less full on.

[piper]

Just reading through this - you did not get your pup until 16 weeks and he is now 5.5 months so really that is not a very long time with you and it osund slike he had not had a lot of experience with the world before you. Do you know much of his up bringing until he came to you. Is it possible that someone was a little heavy handed with him?

I would be looking at building up the relationship with you so that he thinks you are the best person in the world as well as doing collar grab games as suggested by Agility Dogs. And at this stage I would not be physically placing him into position. Keep training upbeat, fun and reward heavily to build up value. If he misses something just give a no reward marker and try again. I would aim for lots of short session through the day with a high success rate. If you are not getting 80 - 90% success rate then lower the criteria so he can get it right and build confidence.

Good luck.

[corvus]

Just be careful with free shaping. Some dogs find it stressful. Erik LOVES it, but he's persistent and outgoing and drivey. Kivi is not persistent or drivey and he much prefers targeting. He gets very excited about targeting. Free shaping will see him lying on the ground whining and refusing to engage at all.