Why Do People Cross Breed ?

[lanabanana]

5. Good point....the breeder of that particular mix, is actually a purebred breeder (I did call them a BYB breeder in my last post - but they do breed pures...could still be a BYB though). They breed pugs and have been doing so for a while I believe. So the parentage/family history was there, and I assume the knowledge of unknown genetic disorders. I don't knwo all the facts though as I just have second hand info from the buyer. I am not sure why they choose to cross with a griffon....IMO it was for cuteness factor only...I can't imagine any real purpose for that mix, or any way there would be improvements by mixing the two. Granted she is a gorgeous looking puppy....but I imagine she will have numerous issues (maybe not severe) as she gets older - but she may not and they have a really cute dog out of it (mind you she already snores so that doesn't say much for her super squashed face and how it will be as she ages).

I think I know the pug breeder - are they in the Sydney area? If so they aren't regarded as being reputable at all and I would definitely call them a BYB

I'm sure she is gorgeous - lets just hope she doesn't have any genetic time bombs waiting to go off

Re: snoring - she will probably be very loud as she ages my parents pug hardly every snuffles/snores although she is getting abit louder now that she is 11+

No not a breeder from Sydney...they are not in this country at all.

Sorry, I didn't stipulate that my friend (and hence the breeder) is in NZ as I didn't think it relevant info. She is a gorgeous wee dog and I agree, hopefully no genetic disorders to come. I have warned my freind about things to look out for after doing some research into each breed so she can be prepared. But I believe both parents have been checked for known disorders...if the breeders weren't lying that is.

Anyway, friends are happy with the wee lass. The breeder was really nice and very forthcoming according to my friend. She had already backed away from other litters due to breeders coming across as money hungry and dodgy etc. She is their first dog so I hope it all works out well for them, especially as they are already thinking about going back to the breeder for one of their pugs in the future.

[koalathebear]

My post above was in response to your post below stating "Our puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder". From your post I gather you don't fully understand what a backyard breeder is, so I posted some definitions to clarify what a backyard breeder is. It was not a criticism of your pup or of you procuring your dog from a backyard breeder, it was simply to correct your mistaken belief that your puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder, irrespective of whether any money changed hands.

Thanks for the clarification I shouldn't have been so defensive.

I guess I just feel bad at the thought of condemning the nice lady who sold us the puppy as one of those evil backyard breeders I keep have been reading about. I know that a responsible owner should have made sure her dog was desexed but I'm not aware of the circumstances surrounding why their dog was still intact. I am also aware that some might say that the owner should have taken the dogs to a shelter or rescue where potential owners would be vetted but part of me can't help thinking that she probably thought that she was taking responsibility for her actions.

First of all, she was the owner of the father and not the mother of the dogs but she had clearly taken on the responsibility of looking after, feeding and socialising the six pups with her children, cats and other dogs. When Elbie came to us, he already had very basic training and knew how to sit properly when waiting and asking for things. It's quite possible that the owner of the bitch had wanted to dump the puppies, which was why the seller ended up looking after all of them and also the mother as well during and after the pregnancy.

The seller could have taken the pups to a shelter or dumped them at the pound but for some reason she chose to look after them at her own cost for eight weeks before giving them away and also continuing to follow up on their progress after they had left her care. When we were driving there to get the pup, I had mentioned to my boyfriend that I intended to ask the seller why she hadn't had her dog desexed when the law (at least ACT law) has compulsory desexing unless you're a breeder/intending to show the dog etc but after meeting her, I decided not to ask that question ...

If we get another dog I'd very much like to get a rescue doggy but for now, I can see that accidents might sometimes happen and the puppies end up being the innocent victims.

[Steve]

Good heavens, if a breeder can do it all right and still make money over an extended period of time then all power to them. Since when is it a case of remain poverty stricken = an ethical breeder?

People cross breed because they can, there is a demand and just as anyone choosing to breed purebred dogs has the right in this country to do so because a minority of people - us - prefer purebred dogs thats not going to stop them.

Purebred breeders breed less than 10% of puppies bred in this country each year and it doesnt matter what side of the fence you sit on you can make an argument to justify what you do.

What you breed or why you breed it or even if you make truck loads of money isnt counted. What is counted is the things a person is prepared not

to compromise on to ensure that every puppy has the chance of the best life with the best family.

I breed Maremmas and most of my dogs work - without them my stud Dorper sheep some of which are worth tens of thousands of dollars would be plagued by foxes and crows.My lambs would be lucky to survive their first week of life. Put simply I cant live without them. During lambing season I get calls from farmers who offer me thousands of dollars for my dogs some of which wouldbe happy to only take them for a few months and then return them.the difference for me is that the year before I got the Maremmas we lost 200 lambs since the Maremmas Ive lost none. How much is a working Maremma worth ? If I have one which a farmer is prepared to pay $5000 for which takes it away from where its working for me should I say no and put a lesser price on it so I remain ethical?

A working Kelpie - papered or not that is good at what it does easily replaces 2 men when it comes to handling mobs of sheep. $6000 is cheap.

[ncarter]

Hybrid vigour of course

off topic but can someone point me in the direction of a good thread on de-bunking the hybrid vigour argument. I seem to recall reading something about it being a theory that is more applicable to plants than animals.

[furballs]

"Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer?"

Furballs, if you do a google search on puppy farmers and have a look at how these establishments keep their breeding bitches and puppies, perhaps that may help you to decide where to buy your next dog.

Have done this to death, I would never buy from a puppy farmer, my question was based on why the average person with no knowledge of the difference between breeders and puppy farmers would choose a breeder rather than a puppy farmer.

[J...]

off topic but can someone point me in the direction of a good thread on de-bunking the hybrid vigour argument. I seem to recall reading something about it being a theory that is more applicable to plants than animals.

It's relevant to production animals - you get increased production, fertility and growth benefits with cross-bred cattle. Probably the same benefits in cross bred sheep.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Hybrid vigour of course

off topic but can someone point me in the direction of a good thread on de-bunking the hybrid vigour argument. I seem to recall reading something about it being a theory that is more applicable to plants than animals.

Nic I think jdavis ( hope thats still their name ??) may have had a really good thread or post in this a while back ( may be wrong but the names rings a bell with the thread topic ??)

[ncarter]

thanks Wazzat. Do you know if JDavis started the thread?

[ILK]

I didn't read the entire thread, but my answer to your question is ignorance & stupidity.

I have an employee who informed me that she had the cutest two dogs ever so she would breed them to make cute pups.

She isn't in it for the money, she is just a silly girly girl (40 yr old woman) who wants to make the cutest puppies ever. Naturally I rained on her parade and gave her the facts, but she will never get it. She is just plain stupid when it comes to her dogs and cutesy rules over all else.

To top it off when I asked her where she got her pooches from, one was from pets paradise, the other from a backyard breeder

Unfortunately there will always be education needed in this area. It is inevitable that there will always be $$ hungry or stupid people out there.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Hybrid vigour of course

off topic but can someone point me in the direction of a good thread on de-bunking the hybrid vigour argument. I seem to recall reading something about it being a theory that is more applicable to plants than animals.

Sorry Nic it was Jed.......... but I recall from memory ( I am old) that Jdavis has spome knwoledge on this through her work with primates ??

Title: Some Practical Solutions to Welfare Problems in Dog Breeding

Authors: P D McGreevy & F W Nichols - 1999

Summary : This paper reviews the history of the establishment of dog breeds summarises current health and welfare problems, and makes suggestiongs about outcrossing and introducing new blood into established breeds. Also information on F1 hybrids, and hybrid vigour

Link: http://www.terrierman.com/mcgreevey-some-p...og-breeding.pdf

This post has been edited by Jed: 6th Feb 2010 - 07:49 PM

[nickojoy]

Some definitions of backyard breeders:

• An owner whose pet may have an unplanned litter by accident, or who breeds on purpose. Common reasons cited include: making extra money
  
• A person who casually breeds purebred dogs with little or no regard to the breed standard, genetically linked defects or temperament.
  
• Somebody who owns and breeds dogs for the purpose of resale with out proving through showing, and health checks, that the dog is worthy of being bred
  

These so called breeders sell mature dogs (after 6 litters) that are only given attention during feed or kennel cleaning time would need a lot of time with humans to educate them about the way of life a dog should have, including inside, baths, walkies, kids, training etc....

But we still have in your way of saying a BYB and Puppy farms being run by registered breeders. These breeders do not health test the dogs and will sell every pup on main register, they will also advertise as "show quality" even though the pups are not born or are one week of age, how the heck can you tell if they are show quality when you have no idea how they have developed?? Several different breeds of litters on the ground at one time, and today I saw on one particular breeders site 7 litters of the same breed how can a couple give enough attention to every pup in those litters?

Top dollar is being spent on these pups, because the general public are not aware of the health risks involved in every breed.

[Dame Aussie]

I think people just do it because they honestly don't see anything wrong with it. A lot of people who are not very knowledgeable about dogs would compare it to people of different races breeding, yes we know that's silly, not everyone does though.

Also a lot of people just want to breed their dog because they think it's the best dog ever. They don't understand about bettering a breed or the health tests that should be done, they just want a pup just like their beloved dog

I think a lot of BYB's really don't mean any harm and just don't realise the issues with what they're doing.

Education is the key.

ETA: spelling!!

Edited June 4, 2010 by Aussie3

[furballs]

Some people seem to be taking offense to me asking questions. I haven't accused breeders of doing anything wrong, this thread is about why people cross breed so I think it's fair to ask what costs are incurred by registered breeders as opposed to Designer breeders. I have been told that I should go elsewhere because people perceive me as being opposed to breeders for asking simple questions. Do you also suggest that I start aquiring my dogs from BYB and/or puppy farmers because I don't agree with everything you say? With some breeders being this arrogant it's no wonder people choose to aquire pups from other sources.

It's a fact that not all registered breeders are in it for the good of the breed. I don't know anyone who breeds designer dogs but perhaps there are those who believe they are doing the right thing just as some of you purebreeders do.

And yes this sight is for purebred dogs, so if I own pedigree, papered dogs I should be allowed an opinion on here the same as anyone else, but I say something that a long term member doesn't want me to say, all of a sudden I'm not welcome on this forum.

[Dame Aussie]

Good heavens, if a breeder can do it all right and still make money over an extended period of time then all power to them. Since when is it a case of remain poverty stricken = an ethical breeder?

People cross breed because they can, there is a demand and just as anyone choosing to breed purebred dogs has the right in this country to do so because a minority of people - us - prefer purebred dogs thats not going to stop them.

Purebred breeders breed less than 10% of puppies bred in this country each year and it doesnt matter what side of the fence you sit on you can make an argument to justify what you do.

What you breed or why you breed it or even if you make truck loads of money isnt counted. What is counted is the things a person is prepared not

to compromise on to ensure that every puppy has the chance of the best life with the best family.

I breed Maremmas and most of my dogs work - without them my stud Dorper sheep some of which are worth tens of thousands of dollars would be plagued by foxes and crows.My lambs would be lucky to survive their first week of life. Put simply I cant live without them. During lambing season I get calls from farmers who offer me thousands of dollars for my dogs some of which wouldbe happy to only take them for a few months and then return them.the difference for me is that the year before I got the Maremmas we lost 200 lambs since the Maremmas Ive lost none. How much is a working Maremma worth ? If I have one which a farmer is prepared to pay $5000 for which takes it away from where its working for me should I say no and put a lesser price on it so I remain ethical?

A working Kelpie - papered or not that is good at what it does easily replaces 2 men when it comes to handling mobs of sheep. $6000 is cheap.

Excellent point Steve

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Some people seem to be taking offense to me asking questions. I haven't accused breeders of doing anything wrong, this thread is about why people cross breed so I think it's fair to ask what costs are incurred by registered breeders as opposed to Designer breeders. I have been told that I should go elsewhere because people perceive me as being opposed to breeders for asking simple questions. Do you also suggest that I start aquiring my dogs from BYB and/or puppy farmers because I don't agree with everything you say? With some breeders being this arrogant it's no wonder people choose to aquire pups from other sources.

It's a fact that not all registered breeders are in it for the good of the breed. I don't know anyone who breeds designer dogs but perhaps there are those who believe they are doing the right thing just as some of you purebreeders do.

And yes this sight is for purebred dogs, so if I own pedigree, papered dogs I should be allowed an opinion on here the same as anyone else, but I say something that a long term member doesn't want me to say, all of a sudden I'm not welcome on this forum.

yep it is a pure bred forum and your line of questions and attitude would be better placed in another forum that has cross breds as its focus IMO

[furballs]

Some people seem to be taking offense to me asking questions. I haven't accused breeders of doing anything wrong, this thread is about why people cross breed so I think it's fair to ask what costs are incurred by registered breeders as opposed to Designer breeders. I have been told that I should go elsewhere because people perceive me as being opposed to breeders for asking simple questions. Do you also suggest that I start aquiring my dogs from BYB and/or puppy farmers because I don't agree with everything you say? With some breeders being this arrogant it's no wonder people choose to aquire pups from other sources.

It's a fact that not all registered breeders are in it for the good of the breed. I don't know anyone who breeds designer dogs but perhaps there are those who believe they are doing the right thing just as some of you purebreeders do.

And yes this sight is for purebred dogs, so if I own pedigree, papered dogs I should be allowed an opinion on here the same as anyone else, but I say something that a long term member doesn't want me to say, all of a sudden I'm not welcome on this forum.

yep it is a pure bred forum and your line of questions and attitude would be better placed in another forum that has cross breds as its focus IMO

So you people can judge others as you please but when someone asks a question that you don't like they should go elsewhere?

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Some people seem to be taking offense to me asking questions. I haven't accused breeders of doing anything wrong, this thread is about why people cross breed so I think it's fair to ask what costs are incurred by registered breeders as opposed to Designer breeders. I have been told that I should go elsewhere because people perceive me as being opposed to breeders for asking simple questions. Do you also suggest that I start aquiring my dogs from BYB and/or puppy farmers because I don't agree with everything you say? With some breeders being this arrogant it's no wonder people choose to aquire pups from other sources.

It's a fact that not all registered breeders are in it for the good of the breed. I don't know anyone who breeds designer dogs but perhaps there are those who believe they are doing the right thing just as some of you purebreeders do.

And yes this sight is for purebred dogs, so if I own pedigree, papered dogs I should be allowed an opinion on here the same as anyone else, but I say something that a long term member doesn't want me to say, all of a sudden I'm not welcome on this forum.

yep it is a pure bred forum and your line of questions and attitude would be better placed in another forum that has cross breds as its focus IMO

So you people can judge others as you please but when someone asks a question that you don't like they should go elsewhere?

yes when the questions, subject and attitude are against the forum rules and intent

[furballs]

Some people seem to be taking offense to me asking questions. I haven't accused breeders of doing anything wrong, this thread is about why people cross breed so I think it's fair to ask what costs are incurred by registered breeders as opposed to Designer breeders. I have been told that I should go elsewhere because people perceive me as being opposed to breeders for asking simple questions. Do you also suggest that I start aquiring my dogs from BYB and/or puppy farmers because I don't agree with everything you say? With some breeders being this arrogant it's no wonder people choose to aquire pups from other sources.

It's a fact that not all registered breeders are in it for the good of the breed. I don't know anyone who breeds designer dogs but perhaps there are those who believe they are doing the right thing just as some of you purebreeders do.

And yes this sight is for purebred dogs, so if I own pedigree, papered dogs I should be allowed an opinion on here the same as anyone else, but I say something that a long term member doesn't want me to say, all of a sudden I'm not welcome on this forum.

yep it is a pure bred forum and your line of questions and attitude would be better placed in another forum that has cross breds as its focus IMO

So you people can judge others as you please but when someone asks a question that you don't like they should go elsewhere?

yes when the questions, subject and attitude are against the forum rules and intent

Can you explain what you mean by the above comment

[Adnil444]

We don't have a REAL education program in Australia to educate people. And there are still vets out there that do not push desexing enough for cross breed dogs and even pets.

$4millon was raised by Pedigree to help with the adoption program, none of that is going towards a education program.

The RSPCA should also be running a desexing program... they make a BUCKET load of money a year.

All for education..but if people have it in their heads to breed then they're not going to desex. If you cannot afford to have a dog desexed then you shouldn't own a dog. In the scheme of things desexing isn't a huge expense.

So you are telling me that a 70 year old lady that can not afford to desex her dog that she has because there is no one else around can not own a dog because she can not afford to desex because she is on a pension?

Desexing is a huge expense in the year 2010, over $200 for the average dog/bitch. That is someone's shopping for the week, rent, petrol, bills.... My house payments have gone up by $500 a month in 5 months.

Now explain to me why someone that can not afford to desex their animal shouldn't own a dog?

Because if that dog gets pregnant then the $200+ for desexing will seem like a pittance. Also what if she can't find suitable homes for the pups? Will she dump them, will she send them to the pound where they could end up being pts? The list goes on. To me and most others, desexing is a part of owning a dog (or cat). The cycle of unwanted dogs and puppies continues. If you can't afford that basic cost, then perhaps you may need to look at another pet. If she wants a dog, then the rescue organisations sell them relatively cheaply and all vaccinations and desexing is taken care of.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

Some people seem to be taking offense to me asking questions. I haven't accused breeders of doing anything wrong, this thread is about why people cross breed so I think it's fair to ask what costs are incurred by registered breeders as opposed to Designer breeders. I have been told that I should go elsewhere because people perceive me as being opposed to breeders for asking simple questions. Do you also suggest that I start aquiring my dogs from BYB and/or puppy farmers because I don't agree with everything you say? With some breeders being this arrogant it's no wonder people choose to aquire pups from other sources.

It's a fact that not all registered breeders are in it for the good of the breed. I don't know anyone who breeds designer dogs but perhaps there are those who believe they are doing the right thing just as some of you purebreeders do.

And yes this sight is for purebred dogs, so if I own pedigree, papered dogs I should be allowed an opinion on here the same as anyone else, but I say something that a long term member doesn't want me to say, all of a sudden I'm not welcome on this forum.

yep it is a pure bred forum and your line of questions and attitude would be better placed in another forum that has cross breds as its focus IMO

So you people can judge others as you please but when someone asks a question that you don't like they should go elsewhere?

yes when the questions, subject and attitude are against the forum rules and intent

Can you explain what you mean by the above comment

from here which you should have read before posting http://www.dolforums.com.au/forumrules.html

This site is for pure bred dog discussion

The primary purpose of this forum is to promote and discuss pure bred dogs (as recognised by the ANKC) so we ask you respect our aim when visiting here. If you own a cross breed dog, you are also welcome here, but we ask that you refer to it by it's proper name (eg a pug-x or cavalier-x instead of the designer term 'pugalier').

Do not make comments that are likely to start or perpetuate an argument.

This is not related to just having a difference of opinion.

No promotion of cross breeds / designer dogs

This site has nothing against cross breeds (most of us have had one at some stage in our life), however we are against the promotion of them as being superior to the purebred dog and people cashing in on the 'designer dog' craze.

We also ask that you refrain from unnecessary designer dog discussion. (ie discussion that has no real purpose other than to express dismay at the latest 'cross breed' you saw (or read about)). Sure, we all know they are out there, but we prefer to concentrate on discussing the pure bred dog (ANKC recognised breeds).

No denigration of pure bred dogs

Speaks for itself. If you don't think pure bred dogs make the perfect pets, then maybe this forum is not for you.

No denigration of responsible, registered breeders and breeding practices

Our site has a lot of breeders with a lot of knowledge to share. We will not tolerate members who denigrate (however subtle) responsible breeders and breeding practices.