Why Do People Cross Breed ?

[poodlefan]

But I don't see why you would cross those 2 breeds

For some people, its simply because they own them.

[labsrule]

I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother?

Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from.

ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs.

Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer

If she has 10 pups.

I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc.

I don't have a problem with ethical breeders making a bit of money out of what they do, I know most ethical breeders who actually care about dogs will rescue so I have a lot of respect for them. I would happily give that extra bit for the cause of the dog/breed. I'm a curious person, I would like to know what the actual costs are for breeders, that's all.

i think that is their business and no one elses business. and i think its a bit rude to ask the question

Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer?

Are you for real? Have you not learned anything thru this site. You seem to have a problem with purebred breeders, so why don't you go elsewhere, after all this is Purebred Forum Why don't you direct your efforts and questions on the practice and earnings at the vile puppy farmers , after all they are only in it for the money, nothing else, pure and simple. The dogs health and welfare does not come into it at all

[labsrule]

I have a cousin who is currently studying vet science in a very reputable university. Their lecturer actually said that MOST cross-breeds are healthier than pure breeds. And the lecturer also said that is why Guide Dogs are usually Lab/GR cross. Then I asked my cousin whether they have data to prove it or not but my cousin said he is not sure about this.

From my point of view about this health issue is that: they probably won't know about generic health issues regarding a cross-breed(no past examples) so they assume that cross-breeds are "healthier".

ETA: They also assume that cross-breeding will lead to getting all the desired characteristics (EG non-shedding coats). I also ask my cousin what are the chances of getting more of the undesired characteristics and he told me "not high". I don't think cross-breeding will lead to getting desired characteristics because like humans, we are born the way we are, we don't have a choice.

Which state, which Guide Dogs is using the Lab/GR cross? as I have heard the opposite i.e. Lab more focussed, more stable and more trainable. Let me guess which Uni the Lecturer that made the INCORRECT statement about that MOST cross-breeds are healthier than pure breeds. Could it be the same Uni that hosted the puppyfarmers convention not too long ago

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother?

Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from.

ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs.

Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer

If she has 10 pups.

I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc.

I don't have a problem with ethical breeders making a bit of money out of what they do, I know most ethical breeders who actually care about dogs will rescue so I have a lot of respect for them. I would happily give that extra bit for the cause of the dog/breed. I'm a curious person, I would like to know what the actual costs are for breeders, that's all.

i think that is their business and no one elses business. and i think its a bit rude to ask the question

Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer?

Are you for real? Have you not learned anything thru this site. You seem to have a problem with purebred breeders, so why don't you go elsewhere, after all this is Purebred Forum Why don't you direct your efforts and questions on the practice and earnings at the vile puppy farmers , after all they are only in it for the money, nothing else, pure and simple. The dogs health and welfare does not come into it at all

i know this topic is doing my head in. i really think some of the posters are in the wrong forum as they really dont want to learn about pure bred dogs bred by ethical breeders. seems there is the start of breeder bashing happening (except if they are talking about puppy farmers!!!).

Edited June 4, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy

[MalteseLuna]

In answer to the OP

Why do people cross breed? Because there is demand for cross breed dogs - it is that simple.

Very true - however I think alot of the demand is because people don't understand that the 'x-doodle' puppy they are buying isn't a new 'rare' breed but rather a straight crossbreed. T

Why do they charge stupid amounts for cute little cross breeds? Because people will pay it - its that simple.

People pay it because there is a myth that purebred puppies are even more expensive (most people don't bother doing their own research) and because they believe they are getting some new fangled rare breed. If people realised more about where pet shop puppies come from they wouldn't want to buy the puppies.

I personally have no problem with breeding of any sort, pure or cross, providing the breeder is responsible and ethical and has all the relevant health checks done for the parents to lessen the likelihood of genetic disorders from either breed showing up in the pups.

Granted, hybrid viguer (sp) can and does happen, but also the opposite can happen where the pup takes on every bad health issue from both of the parents.

Hybrid vigor does not happen. Crossing two individuals of the SAME species does not create a hybrid.

Crossing two breeds can be very similar to playing genetic Russian roulette - you don't know what the puppy will get. For example the puppy may get a mix of features from each parent this could lead to fundamental anatomical machinery not fitting together properly i.e. wrong shaped knee caps with leg bones or very small mouth with too many/too large teeth.

I have a wee cross/hybrid which was accidentally bought from a back yard breeder. I initially thought it was an accidental mating, these things happen. It didn't bother me she was asking $220 for the pups as pups cost money to raise. We went and looked at the pups and selected our girl and I started asking the lady about vet visits and vaxs etc...she had done none of it. She hadn't flead them, wormed them or taken them for a vet visit at all (they were 8 weeks old). I was absolutely horrified. Anyway, this just firmed up our decision to take our baby home as we felt she needed to be taken somewhere safe (and she was so cute I had already fallen in love) and then we said to the lady, we will give you $180....thats when we realised she was a BYB because her response was "You are getting her cheap anyway because I usually charge $250" and then told us her two dogs (a foxy and a shih tzu) had had something like 3 or 4 litters. Now I can say I should have put the puppy back so as not to encourage BYBers...but I was already set on her, I felt she needed to come with us and if I didn't take her, someone else would have. I don't know what health issues she may end up with, if any, but now I know she is in a home where she will be looked after and get any treatment she needs. Thus far she is a healthy little girl (1 next week) and very robust, she is a gorgeous scruffy little dog and I am glad I got her - BYB or not.

I would have walked away when it became evident the lady hadn't taken the pups to the vet. Having had the heartache of thinking myself to be 'saving' a puppy from a similar situation only to have her die a week later from Parvo I would NEVER support a byb ever again. They don't care for the dogs and they don't deserve the label of 'breeder'. They just want money or are too lazy to care for their animals properly and de-sex them or take measures to avoid litters.

I understand then sentiment of wanting to save her - and you have which is a good thing, I bet she is a fantastic dog- but you (and I) have helped the cycle continue. When people continue buying these puppies and supporting the actions of byb's and pet stores they can keep breeding.

My parents bought a puppy from a pet store (Malt X Shih) about 10 years ago. For the first 5 years of her life she was healthy as can be and then her genetic luggage started catching up with her. She has/had terrible luxating patellas which have had to be corrected with surgery (costing $1000 per hind leg). Because of this she has bad arthritis in her back legs as well. When you compare her general health to my parents pug (from a responsible reputable breeder) it's much worse. The pug has yet to have had a serious health issue and is going strong at 11+ years.

My friend purchase last week a pug/griffon mix (very very cute) off what some might say is a BYB. However, they run health checks on both parents for things both breeds may have (I can't remember some of the names). They provide a list of breed traits for each breed and explain that the pup may be a mixture of two, or one or something different, they provide information around genetic disorders. They put them in contact with other pug/griffon owners and all pups were health checked and the list goes on. Pretty responsible if you ask me and I have no problem with cross breeders like that.

I don't understand this - what does the mixing make better about the puppy? Running health checks on the parents may help to a degree but at the same time the byb will have no knowledge of genetic diseases for which there are no tests (unlike purebred breeders which have more of this knowledge by benefit of parentage/family history).

I have more to say on this but can't seem to express it properly in words - my brain isn't functioning today!

[labsrule]

I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother?

Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from.

ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs.

Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer

If she has 10 pups.

I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc.

I don't have a problem with ethical breeders making a bit of money out of what they do, I know most ethical breeders who actually care about dogs will rescue so I have a lot of respect for them. I would happily give that extra bit for the cause of the dog/breed. I'm a curious person, I would like to know what the actual costs are for breeders, that's all.

i think that is their business and no one elses business. and i think its a bit rude to ask the question

Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer?

Are you for real? Have you not learned anything thru this site. You seem to have a problem with purebred breeders, so why don't you go elsewhere, after all this is Purebred Forum Why don't you direct your efforts and questions on the practice and earnings at the vile puppy farmers , after all they are only in it for the money, nothing else, pure and simple. The dogs health and welfare does not come into it at all

i know this topic is doing my head in. i really think some of the posters are in the wrong forum as they really dont want to learn about pure bred dogs bred by ethical breeders. seems there is the start of breeder bashing happening (except if they are talking about puppy farmers!!!).

Yeah know exactly what you mean, my patience has worn very thin with some of the posters and threads and they should bugger off and create their own crossbreed forum or join a puppyfarmers forum if they want to slag off purebred breeders

[lanabanana]

In answer to the OP

Why do people cross breed? Because there is demand for cross breed dogs - it is that simple.

Very true - however I think alot of the demand is because people don't understand that the 'x-doodle' puppy they are buying isn't a new 'rare' breed but rather a straight crossbreed. T

Why do they charge stupid amounts for cute little cross breeds? Because people will pay it - its that simple.

People pay it because there is a myth that purebred puppies are even more expensive (most people don't bother doing their own research) and because they believe they are getting some new fangled rare breed. If people realised more about where pet shop puppies come from they wouldn't want to buy the puppies.

I personally have no problem with breeding of any sort, pure or cross, providing the breeder is responsible and ethical and has all the relevant health checks done for the parents to lessen the likelihood of genetic disorders from either breed showing up in the pups.

Granted, hybrid viguer (sp) can and does happen, but also the opposite can happen where the pup takes on every bad health issue from both of the parents.

Hybrid vigor does not happen. Crossing two individuals of the SAME species does not create a hybrid.

Crossing two breeds can be very similar to playing genetic Russian roulette - you don't know what the puppy will get. For example the puppy may get a mix of features from each parent this could lead to fundamental anatomical machinery not fitting together properly i.e. wrong shaped knee caps with leg bones or very small mouth with too many/too large teeth.

I have a wee cross/hybrid which was accidentally bought from a back yard breeder. I initially thought it was an accidental mating, these things happen. It didn't bother me she was asking $220 for the pups as pups cost money to raise. We went and looked at the pups and selected our girl and I started asking the lady about vet visits and vaxs etc...she had done none of it. She hadn't flead them, wormed them or taken them for a vet visit at all (they were 8 weeks old). I was absolutely horrified. Anyway, this just firmed up our decision to take our baby home as we felt she needed to be taken somewhere safe (and she was so cute I had already fallen in love) and then we said to the lady, we will give you $180....thats when we realised she was a BYB because her response was "You are getting her cheap anyway because I usually charge $250" and then told us her two dogs (a foxy and a shih tzu) had had something like 3 or 4 litters. Now I can say I should have put the puppy back so as not to encourage BYBers...but I was already set on her, I felt she needed to come with us and if I didn't take her, someone else would have. I don't know what health issues she may end up with, if any, but now I know she is in a home where she will be looked after and get any treatment she needs. Thus far she is a healthy little girl (1 next week) and very robust, she is a gorgeous scruffy little dog and I am glad I got her - BYB or not.

I would have walked away when it became evident the lady hadn't taken the pups to the vet. Having had the heartache of thinking myself to be 'saving' a puppy from a similar situation only to have her die a week later from Parvo I would NEVER support a byb ever again. They don't care for the dogs and they don't deserve the label of 'breeder'. They just want money or are too lazy to care for their animals properly and de-sex them or take measures to avoid litters.

I understand then sentiment of wanting to save her - and you have which is a good thing, I bet she is a fantastic dog- but you (and I) have helped the cycle continue. When people continue buying these puppies and supporting the actions of byb's and pet stores they can keep breeding.

My parents bought a puppy from a pet store (Malt X Shih) about 10 years ago. For the first 5 years of her life she was healthy as can be and then her genetic luggage started catching up with her. She has/had terrible luxating patellas which have had to be corrected with surgery (costing $1000 per hind leg). Because of this she has bad arthritis in her back legs as well. When you compare her general health to my parents pug (from a responsible reputable breeder) it's much worse. The pug has yet to have had a serious health issue and is going strong at 11+ years.

My friend purchase last week a pug/griffon mix (very very cute) off what some might say is a BYB. However, they run health checks on both parents for things both breeds may have (I can't remember some of the names). They provide a list of breed traits for each breed and explain that the pup may be a mixture of two, or one or something different, they provide information around genetic disorders. They put them in contact with other pug/griffon owners and all pups were health checked and the list goes on. Pretty responsible if you ask me and I have no problem with cross breeders like that.

I don't understand this - what does the mixing make better about the puppy? Running health checks on the parents may help to a degree but at the same time the byb will have no knowledge of genetic diseases for which there are no tests (unlike purebred breeders which have more of this knowledge by benefit of parentage/family history).

I have more to say on this but can't seem to express it properly in words - my brain isn't functioning today!

Some great points, I haven't learnt to split quote yet so I will just number by quote:

1. Agree. Some people I am sure are aware they are a cross - but like others, think they are going to get the best of both breeds mixed into one.

2. Personally, I find the price to be pretty equal round the board. Sometimes pure is more, sometimes cross is more but it all averages out to be the same. at the end of the day, if someone wants that particular dog, regardless of breed/cross, they are going to pay for it no matter the cost.

3. OK so technically it wouldn't be Hybrid Vigour as they are the same breed, but using the term loosely as applied to in-species breeding, people think (and it can happen) that the cross breeding dilutes the genes that carry the genetic disorders...they dont think about the fact that it can highlight them making it worse. Wording is probably not the best there - I am not a breeder nor a geneticist but I am sure you get the gist of what I am trying to get at. I totally agree about the roulette - which I think I alluded to in my original post.

4. I probably should have walked away...however, I have purchased or obtained for free many a mutt (accidental breeding) without them having had a vet visit prior to purchasing so that wasn't a big issue to me. Needless to say she went to the vet the day after we got her and had a full check up. In regards to Parvo, my dog (who died when we got her here) obtained parvo after she had had all her puppy shots and she had had regular vet visits since birth so there are no garantees. Encouragement for BYB is a toughy...at the end of the day, someone is going to purchase those pups and I think it's better that someone who maybe has an idea of the issues that may occur in the future (and is prepared that that may happen) rather than some poor unsuspecting gullible who wants a cute puppy (and has no idea and dumps them when they become a problem).

5. Good point....the breeder of that particular mix, is actually a purebred breeder (I did call them a BYB breeder in my last post - but they do breed pures...could still be a BYB though). They breed pugs and have been doing so for a while I believe. So the parentage/family history was there, and I assume the knowledge of unknown genetic disorders. I don't knwo all the facts though as I just have second hand info from the buyer. I am not sure why they choose to cross with a griffon....IMO it was for cuteness factor only...I can't imagine any real purpose for that mix, or any way there would be improvements by mixing the two. Granted she is a gorgeous looking puppy....but I imagine she will have numerous issues (maybe not severe) as she gets older - but she may not and they have a really cute dog out of it (mind you she already snores so that doesn't say much for her super squashed face and how it will be as she ages).

Edited June 4, 2010 by lanabanana

[teekay]

In answer to the OP

Why do people cross breed? Because there is demand for cross breed dogs - it is that simple.

Why do they charge stupid amounts for cute little cross breeds? Because people will pay it - its that simple.

I personally have no problem with breeding of any sort, pure or cross, providing the breeder is responsible and ethical and has all the relevant health checks done for the parents to lessen the likelihood of genetic disorders from either breed showing up in the pups.

Granted, hybrid viguer (sp) can and does happen, but also the opposite can happen where the pup takes on every bad health issue from both of the parents.

I have a wee cross/hybrid which was accidentally bought from a back yard breeder. I initially thought it was an accidental mating, these things happen. It didn't bother me she was asking $220 for the pups as pups cost money to raise. We went and looked at the pups and selected our girl and I started asking the lady about vet visits and vaxs etc...she had done none of it. She hadn't flead them, wormed them or taken them for a vet visit at all (they were 8 weeks old). I was absolutely horrified. Anyway, this just firmed up our decision to take our baby home as we felt she needed to be taken somewhere safe (and she was so cute I had already fallen in love) and then we said to the lady, we will give you $180....thats when we realised she was a BYB because her response was "You are getting her cheap anyway because I usually charge $250" and then told us her two dogs (a foxy and a shih tzu) had had something like 3 or 4 litters. Now I can say I should have put the puppy back so as not to encourage BYBers...but I was already set on her, I felt she needed to come with us and if I didn't take her, someone else would have. I don't know what health issues she may end up with, if any, but now I know she is in a home where she will be looked after and get any treatment she needs. Thus far she is a healthy little girl (1 next week) and very robust, she is a gorgeous scruffy little dog and I am glad I got her - BYB or not.

However, I would not recommend purchasing from a BYB.

My friend purchase last week a pug/griffon mix (very very cute) off what some might say is a BYB. However, they run health checks on both parents for things both breeds may have (I can't remember some of the names). They provide a list of breed traits for each breed and explain that the pup may be a mixture of two, or one or something different, they provide information around genetic disorders. They put them in contact with other pug/griffon owners and all pups were health checked and the list goes on. Pretty responsible if you ask me and I have no problem with cross breeders like that.

At the end of the day, any breeder, pure or cross, can be responsible or irresponsible so research should definitely be done into the breeder of choise regardless of what is being bred - if that makes sense.

Gone off on a big fat waffle.....

Excellent post, i agree completely. I have nothing but respect for responsible registered breeders but do believe there are responsible cross breeders out there. Unfortunately they are very few and far between, which is the problem.

I bought Jenna from what I now realise was probably a puppy farm. I feel terrible about it and angry too. She is the most gorgeous, stunning, good natured, sweet dog and I was thinking the other day. If, god forbid, anything should happen to her I would dearly love another GR x Samoyed, like her. I wouldn't be able to, though, as the only places that seem to have this crossbreed appear to be puppy farms. If only puppy farms could be outlawed, pet shops banned from selling live animals and more regulation of breeding and owning dogs, brought into place. Maybe, just maybe crossbreeds could be bred responsibly and people would have more choice. I know I'm probably hoping for a miracle but I can dream

Oh and slightly OT but I think a big reason why people buy crosses and 'pure' from pet shops, internet, Trading post etc is because it's 'easy'. I think the process of contacting a registered breeder and being 'vetted' to buy a puppy does put alot of people off. I'm not saying it's wrong to vet potential owners, not at all, but it will put off some people and they turn to the more readily available pups.

[teekay]

Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer?

I cannot honestly believe you asked that question.

[corvus]

And from what I gather the good, ethical pure breed, breeders are dropping out and will this affect gene pools?

So where would people source pups from if this were to happen?

The gene pool is already questionable if you listen to some folks. I would guess that people would go back to doing what they did before breeds. "I want a medium-sized dog that can do x y and z... I shall breed one." Dogs were purpose-bred long before there were breeds. Both my breeds are quite old in type, but the Vallhund standard has only just been accepted in the US, and the Lapphund standard is only some 40 years old if I remember correctly. Vallhunds were around in the time of the vikings by all accounts. At that, I have a cuddly, "broken" Lapphund that I question would even pass his herding instinct test, but certain Lapphund lines produce pups like him, so are they even the same breed? Considering there's so much variation in temperament and look among lines within purebreeds, the process of breeding for purpose is still alive.

It is very distressing when you have a healthy breed with a small gene pool and you know for a fact that someone is merrily breeding a small population with, say, 3 foundation dogs among themselves and producing puppies that can barely be called that breed and are troubled with health and temperament problems. Not only is it cruel to the products of that inbreeding program (if you can call it a program), but it's basically poisoning the small gene pool and seriously undermining all the good work people who have been carefully breeding to preserve health and type have been doing.

[wuffles]

Our puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder - I think there must have been accidental puppies because the owner didn't desex their (male) dog but you raise an interesting question. I see why you wouldn't take a free puppy from a backyard breeder because it's further encouraging the practice to continue but what about the fate of those puppies? Don't they need rescue, too?

To me that's a backyard breeder, albeit on a smaller scale than some and not the same as puppy farms. Someone else would take the free puppy if I didn't, so I don't feel they need rescue. If people thought that it would be too hard to rehome accidental litters, there would probably be less of them.

If the owner was going to do something like shoot them if they didn't find homes, I'd do my best to get them into rescue and they would all be desexed before going to new, thoroughly vetted homes.

[Shmurps]

And from what I gather the good, ethical pure breed, breeders are dropping out and will this affect gene pools?

So where would people source pups from if this were to happen?

The gene pool is already questionable if you listen to some folks. I would guess that people would go back to doing what they did before breeds. "I want a medium-sized dog that can do x y and z... I shall breed one." Dogs were purpose-bred long before there were breeds. Both my breeds are quite old in type, but the Vallhund standard has only just been accepted in the US, and the Lapphund standard is only some 40 years old if I remember correctly. Vallhunds were around in the time of the vikings by all accounts. At that, I have a cuddly, "broken" Lapphund that I question would even pass his herding instinct test, but certain Lapphund lines produce pups like him, so are they even the same breed? Considering there's so much variation in temperament and look among lines within purebreeds, the process of breeding for purpose is still alive.

It is very distressing when you have a healthy breed with a small gene pool and you know for a fact that someone is merrily breeding a small population with, say, 3 foundation dogs among themselves and producing puppies that can barely be called that breed and are troubled with health and temperament problems. Not only is it cruel to the products of that inbreeding program (if you can call it a program), but it's basically poisoning the small gene pool and seriously undermining all the good work people who have been carefully breeding to preserve health and type have been doing.

The gene pool worries me. You just have to look at the greyhounds. They have a big gene pool and hardly any health problems.

Do you think there would / could be a way to educate people who would like to breed to do it properly.

I think there would be some byb that have no idea but would probably be interested in learning

Maybe a program for for people to learn and have mentors.

[nicolatu]

I have a cousin who is currently studying vet science in a very reputable university. Their lecturer actually said that MOST cross-breeds are healthier than pure breeds. And the lecturer also said that is why Guide Dogs are usually Lab/GR cross. Then I asked my cousin whether they have data to prove it or not but my cousin said he is not sure about this.

I talked to someone from guide dogs vic about this a while back and she said that the lab/GR was in favour because of their even temperament and that it only works for a first generation cross from pure bred parents.

I have yet to see an obviously cross bred guide dog - my auntie used to be heavily involved in Guide Dogs NSW. She used to foster puppies. I see Guide Dogs occasionally and they always look like purebred Labs or GR. It's fairly obvious generally if it's a cross. Why would the cross have a more even temperament than a pure lab or GR both of which are renowned for having excellent temperaments? Just because a lecturer or vet from a respected university says something does not mean it's true

There is absolutely NO evidence that cross-breeds are healthier because nobody has actually done any research on this matter (to my knowledge). Diseases in Purebreds are clearly documented however nobody has a database of cross-breds with health information this is why the myth started. The number of crossbreds I know of who have health problems is larger that the number of purebreds I know of who have health problems. The myth of hybrid vigour is strong however not really valid. Breeding 2 unhealthy/poorly bred animals together whether from the same breed or different breeds doesn't automatically create a magical super healthy puppy. They are still the same species so they aren't hybrids anyway.

The whole purebreds are more expensive is completely untrue. Pet store cross-breds are routinely sold for $1500 to $3000 dollars whilst a purebred Maltese from a reputable breeder may cost $900-$1200 dollars. Most purebred puppies are less expensive that pet store animals because reputable breeders aren't trying to make a profit whilst pet stores are.

I did not said it was true. I was quoting what the lecturer said. Besides, I also think that cross-breds are unpredictable.

[W Sibs]

People cross breed because $$

After talking to my boyfriend and his friends about dogs... I discovered they don't know much. They all believe that cross breed dogs are much more healthier because that's what people tell them. If they want a puppy, they don't know about registered breeders and if they do, they don't know how or what to ask breeders, and they definitely do not want to wait. It's easy to go to a pet store or look online for a puppy.

They generally have no idea what it really takes to look after a dog... they don't even know things like Puppy School. They think puppies will get toilet training after they go out of puppy phase, they automatically know how to sit. It's ok for them to bark at other dogs and people...

They all think I'm a crazy dog lady because how my time I invest in my dogs... they laugh when I tell them i take Emmy to puppy school etc.

They don't care about blood lines, where the puppy is from, what their parents are like... they just want a cute puppy.

And they are silly enough to fork out crap load of money for one.

Anyone who's greedy for money will prey on these people.

Edited June 4, 2010 by CW EW

[labsrule]

My mutt was $250 from rescue and he came desexed, vaccinated, with basic training. I would NEVER buy from a backyard breeder when there are so many beautiful dogs in rescue. I wouldn't even take one for free!

Our puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder - I think there must have been accidental puppies because the owner didn't desex their (male) dog but you raise an interesting question. I see why you wouldn't take a free puppy from a backyard breeder because it's further encouraging the practice to continue but what about the fate of those puppies? Don't they need rescue, too?

Some definitions of backyard breeders:

• An owner whose pet may have an unplanned litter by accident, or who breeds on purpose. Common reasons cited include: making extra money
  
• A person who casually breeds purebred dogs with little or no regard to the breed standard, genetically linked defects or temperament.
  
• Somebody who owns and breeds dogs for the purpose of resale with out proving through showing, and health checks, that the dog is worthy of being bred
  

[Baileys mum]

I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother?

Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from.

ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs.

Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer

If she has 10 pups.

I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that.

You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc.

I don't have a problem with ethical breeders making a bit of money out of what they do, I know most ethical breeders who actually care about dogs will rescue so I have a lot of respect for them. I would happily give that extra bit for the cause of the dog/breed. I'm a curious person, I would like to know what the actual costs are for breeders, that's all.

i think that is their business and no one elses business. and i think its a bit rude to ask the question

Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer?

Are you for real? Have you not learned anything thru this site. You seem to have a problem with purebred breeders, so why don't you go elsewhere, after all this is Purebred Forum Why don't you direct your efforts and questions on the practice and earnings at the vile puppy farmers , after all they are only in it for the money, nothing else, pure and simple. The dogs health and welfare does not come into it at all

i know this topic is doing my head in. i really think some of the posters are in the wrong forum as they really dont want to learn about pure bred dogs bred by ethical breeders. seems there is the start of breeder bashing happening (except if they are talking about puppy farmers!!!).

Yeah know exactly what you mean, my patience has worn very thin with some of the posters and threads and they should bugger off and create their own crossbreed forum or join a puppyfarmers forum if they want to slag off purebred breeders :p

I agree!!

[Cosmolo]

Who cares if ethical, responsible breeders make money from the sale? Provided it does not impact the care, health testing etc of the dogs their breeding from, whats the problem?

Just because we are dealing with animals doesn't mean people should do things for free. I see it all the time as a trainer, vets and vet nurses see it too and breeders sem to be copping it more and more.

The love, ethics, skill and care provided is not eroded by the fact that someone makes a profit- unless it was never really there in the first place.

[koalathebear]

Some definitions of backyard breeders:

• An owner whose pet may have an unplanned litter by accident, or who breeds on purpose. Common reasons cited include: making extra money
  
• A person who casually breeds purebred dogs with little or no regard to the breed standard, genetically linked defects or temperament.
  
• Somebody who owns and breeds dogs for the purpose of resale with out proving through showing, and health checks, that the dog is worthy of being bred
  

Our puppy and his brothers and sisters were being given away for free ... although we did have to drive for an hour to Goulburn to pick him up. I very much regret posting now because clearly some people disapprove of where we got our puppy ... but we weren't deliberately trying to do the wrong thing. We hadn't even considered getting a dog until a few years later but we had grown attached to a dog at the local pound - unfortunately it wasn't possible to get him and at around that time, we saw the ad for the kelpie/bc puppies. We had read a lot saying that the kelpie/border collie cross can be a lovely combination.

The seller was very friendly, emailed a few days after we picked up our puppy to find out if he was going all right and gave us a lot of helpful advice about settling him in when he was crying at night as well as details of what he had been eating, what he might be missing from his old home etc. Clearly she was very anxious to make sure the puppy went to a good home and given that she'd just given us our puppy for free, she was under no obligation to help out. We sent her a lot of pictures of our puppy and videos, too which her son loved.

I am not anti pure-bred dogs at all, nor am I critical of breeders of pure bred dogs it's just that my first dog was a labrador/border collie and he was very lovable and my current puppy is also wonderful despite his mixed blood. It doesn't mean that I want to set up or join a forum solely for cross-breeds. I realise that this is a pure bred dog forum but the forum members have been generally been very welcoming of all dog owners regardless of the parentage of the doggies and I've received a lot of advice here which was much appreciated. We never would have bought our puppy from a puppy mill or a pet shop but having considered the home where we bought our puppy, we concluded that the litter was a genuine mistake and the puppies that were being given away were of the age and type for which we had been looking ...

[labsrule]

Some definitions of backyard breeders:

• An owner whose pet may have an unplanned litter by accident, or who breeds on purpose. Common reasons cited include: making extra money
  
• A person who casually breeds purebred dogs with little or no regard to the breed standard, genetically linked defects or temperament.
  
• Somebody who owns and breeds dogs for the purpose of resale with out proving through showing, and health checks, that the dog is worthy of being bred
  

Our puppy and his brothers and sisters were being given away for free ... although we did have to drive for an hour to Goulburn to pick him up. I very much regret posting now because clearly some people disapprove of where we got our puppy ... but we weren't deliberately trying to do the wrong thing. We hadn't even considered getting a dog until a few years later but we had grown attached to a dog at the local pound - unfortunately it wasn't possible to get him and at around that time, we saw the ad for the kelpie/bc puppies. We had read a lot saying that the kelpie/border collie cross can be a lovely combination.

The seller was very friendly, emailed a few days after we picked up our puppy to find out if he was going all right and gave us a lot of helpful advice about settling him in when he was crying at night as well as details of what he had been eating, what he might be missing from his old home etc. Clearly she was very anxious to make sure the puppy went to a good home and given that she'd just given us our puppy for free, she was under no obligation to help out. We sent her a lot of pictures of our puppy and videos, too which her son loved.

I am not anti pure-bred dogs at all, nor am I critical of breeders of pure bred dogs it's just that my first dog was a labrador/border collie and he was very lovable and my current puppy is also wonderful despite his mixed blood. It doesn't mean that I want to set up or join a forum solely for cross-breeds. I realise that this is a pure bred dog forum but the forum members have been generally been very welcoming of all dog owners regardless of the parentage of the doggies and I've received a lot of advice here which was much appreciated. We never would have bought our puppy from a puppy mill or a pet shop but having considered the home where we bought our puppy, we concluded that the litter was a genuine mistake and the puppies that were being given away were of the age and type for which we had been looking ...

My post above was in response to your post below stating "Our puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder". From your post I gather you don't fully understand what a backyard breeder is, so I posted some definitions to clarify what a backyard breeder is. It was not a criticism of your pup or of you procuring your dog from a backyard breeder, it was simply to correct your mistaken belief that your puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder, irrespective of whether any money changed hands.

Our puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder - I think there must have been accidental puppies because the owner didn't desex their (male) dog but you raise an interesting question. I see why you wouldn't take a free puppy from a backyard breeder because it's further encouraging the practice to continue but what about the fate of those puppies? Don't they need rescue, too?

Some definitions of backyard breeders:

• An owner whose pet may have an unplanned litter by accident, or who breeds on purpose. Common reasons cited include: making extra money
  
• A person who casually breeds purebred dogs with little or no regard to the breed standard, genetically linked defects or temperament.
  
• Somebody who owns and breeds dogs for the purpose of resale with out proving through showing, and health checks, that the dog is worthy of being bred
  

[MalteseLuna]

5. Good point....the breeder of that particular mix, is actually a purebred breeder (I did call them a BYB breeder in my last post - but they do breed pures...could still be a BYB though). They breed pugs and have been doing so for a while I believe. So the parentage/family history was there, and I assume the knowledge of unknown genetic disorders. I don't knwo all the facts though as I just have second hand info from the buyer. I am not sure why they choose to cross with a griffon....IMO it was for cuteness factor only...I can't imagine any real purpose for that mix, or any way there would be improvements by mixing the two. Granted she is a gorgeous looking puppy....but I imagine she will have numerous issues (maybe not severe) as she gets older - but she may not and they have a really cute dog out of it (mind you she already snores so that doesn't say much for her super squashed face and how it will be as she ages).

I think I know the pug breeder - are they in the Sydney area? If so they aren't regarded as being reputable at all and I would definitely call them a BYB

I'm sure she is gorgeous - lets just hope she doesn't have any genetic time bombs waiting to go off

Re: snoring - she will probably be very loud as she ages my parents pug hardly every snuffles/snores although she is getting abit louder now that she is 11+