koalathebear Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 $6,000 are you serious? I can't see how any breeder can justify that kind of money for an 8 week old pup? Heh heh. As Janba correctly mentioned above, that sort of price for a kelpie is for a working kelpie. Article is here: Dog Lovers Pay $6K for Aussie kelpies I'm not actually sure how much a pure bred non-working kelpie goes for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 So what about when there are more than 4 pups in the litter? or 5 or 6 depending an health tests, vet bills etc. And you do need to take into account the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch etc. Providing the breeder is ethical and does the right thing with health tests, breeding for a better dog (whether conformation or working), breeder support why shouldn't they make a profit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 So what about when there are more than 4 pups in the litter? or 5 or 6 depending an health tests, vet bills etc. And you do need to take into account the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch etc. Providing the breeder is ethical and does the right thing with health tests, breeding for a better dog (whether conformation or working), breeder support why shouldn't they make a profit? I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicolatu Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) I have a cousin who is currently studying vet science in a very reputable university. Their lecturer actually said that MOST cross-breeds are healthier than pure breeds. And the lecturer also said that is why Guide Dogs are usually Lab/GR cross. Then I asked my cousin whether they have data to prove it or not but my cousin said he is not sure about this. From my point of view about this health issue is that: they probably won't know about generic health issues regarding a cross-breed(no past examples) so they assume that cross-breeds are "healthier". ETA: They also assume that cross-breeding will lead to getting all the desired characteristics (EG non-shedding coats). I also ask my cousin what are the chances of getting more of the undesired characteristics and he told me "not high". I don't think cross-breeding will lead to getting desired characteristics because like humans, we are born the way we are, we don't have a choice. Edited June 3, 2010 by nicolatu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissindra Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 ongoing costs can account for things like periodical health tests, many tests are only good for the year they are done and so need to be done repeatedly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Edited June 3, 2010 by Janba Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissindra Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 heres the thing - so many genetic problems that could otherwise be avoided or reduced % can be passed on unknowingly if you are using dogs whose genetic history is uncertain or unknown. When Joe blogs mates his little fluffer he got out of the trading post to the neighbours little fluffer they got from a friends accidental litter (father unknown presumed fence jumper) you have a whole host of possible genetic problems that a vet check showing both dogs to be healthy would not show up, and quite frankly most backyard breeders don't even bother with the vet check! A whole range of new issues can come about when crossing seperate breeds - extremely over or undershot jaws are a common one for example. You see these people advertising on free advertisement websites, looking for a partner for their lovely doggy - sometimes they have a breed in mind to cross with, sometimes they just want something of a similar size but there is never any mention of health checks or testing and we so often hear it is a case of "mate down the road had an entire dog so we got them together". The thought process doesn't go beyond get two entire dogs together and sell puppies, and breeding SHOULD be so much more than that if you give a shit about the pups you are bringing into the world. I don't like people who put so little thought into bringing lives into the world, be they crossbreeders or registered breeders - there are bad apples everywhere but I'm yet to meet one person who crossbreeds who does so in a way I would consider ethical. Even the vets will tell wonderful porkies to sell their "stock" those cav x beagles who will have all the good traits of the cavalier and the beagle and none of the percieved problems...well it often does not work like that and I'm tired of people being lied to by those out to make money who often DO know better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 $6,000 are you serious? I can't see how any breeder can justify that kind of money for an 8 week old pup? Heh heh. As Janba correctly mentioned above, that sort of price for a kelpie is for a working kelpie. Article is here: Dog Lovers Pay $6K for Aussie kelpies I'm not actually sure how much a pure bred non-working kelpie goes for To be honest, I think the cross bred kelpies are probably better working dogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 heres the thing - so many genetic problems that could otherwise be avoided or reduced % can be passed on unknowingly if you are using dogs whose genetic history is uncertain or unknown.When Joe blogs mates his little fluffer he got out of the trading post to the neighbours little fluffer they got from a friends accidental litter (father unknown presumed fence jumper) you have a whole host of possible genetic problems that a vet check showing both dogs to be healthy would not show up, and quite frankly most backyard breeders don't even bother with the vet check! A whole range of new issues can come about when crossing seperate breeds - extremely over or undershot jaws are a common one for example. You see these people advertising on free advertisement websites, looking for a partner for their lovely doggy - sometimes they have a breed in mind to cross with, sometimes they just want something of a similar size but there is never any mention of health checks or testing and we so often hear it is a case of "mate down the road had an entire dog so we got them together". The thought process doesn't go beyond get two entire dogs together and sell puppies, and breeding SHOULD be so much more than that if you give a shit about the pups you are bringing into the world. I don't like people who put so little thought into bringing lives into the world, be they crossbreeders or registered breeders - there are bad apples everywhere but I'm yet to meet one person who crossbreeds who does so in a way I would consider ethical. Even the vets will tell wonderful porkies to sell their "stock" those cav x beagles who will have all the good traits of the cavalier and the beagle and none of the percieved problems...well it often does not work like that and I'm tired of people being lied to by those out to make money who often DO know better. What about the ones that use two pedigree dogs of different breeds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissindra Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer depends on which show and how many shows. There are also things like memberships, council fees for breeding licences ect that vary greatly from place to place. Also, the going rate for a puppy varies greatly between breeds and often within breeds. Some states have different requirements for selling pups such as mandatory microchipping. You also might find the stud fees vary a really good dog might cost more to use, or you could be importing semen and have to cover storage fees ect. heck, you might be importing dogs for your breeding program and that runs to well over $10000 in most cases - perhaps you had to fly your dog to meet a stud in another state so add that cost on top too. You begin to see why for so many people this is considered a passionate hobby and not a business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissindra Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 heres the thing - so many genetic problems that could otherwise be avoided or reduced % can be passed on unknowingly if you are using dogs whose genetic history is uncertain or unknown.When Joe blogs mates his little fluffer he got out of the trading post to the neighbours little fluffer they got from a friends accidental litter (father unknown presumed fence jumper) you have a whole host of possible genetic problems that a vet check showing both dogs to be healthy would not show up, and quite frankly most backyard breeders don't even bother with the vet check! A whole range of new issues can come about when crossing seperate breeds - extremely over or undershot jaws are a common one for example. You see these people advertising on free advertisement websites, looking for a partner for their lovely doggy - sometimes they have a breed in mind to cross with, sometimes they just want something of a similar size but there is never any mention of health checks or testing and we so often hear it is a case of "mate down the road had an entire dog so we got them together". The thought process doesn't go beyond get two entire dogs together and sell puppies, and breeding SHOULD be so much more than that if you give a shit about the pups you are bringing into the world. I don't like people who put so little thought into bringing lives into the world, be they crossbreeders or registered breeders - there are bad apples everywhere but I'm yet to meet one person who crossbreeds who does so in a way I would consider ethical. Even the vets will tell wonderful porkies to sell their "stock" those cav x beagles who will have all the good traits of the cavalier and the beagle and none of the percieved problems...well it often does not work like that and I'm tired of people being lied to by those out to make money who often DO know better. What about the ones that use two pedigree dogs of different breeds? see bolded points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer If she has 10 pups. I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that. You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janba Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 To be honest, I think the cross bred kelpies are probably better working dogs And your experience with working dogs is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer depends on which show and how many shows. There are also things like memberships, council fees for breeding licences ect that vary greatly from place to place. Also, the going rate for a puppy varies greatly between breeds and often within breeds. Some states have different requirements for selling pups such as mandatory microchipping. You also might find the stud fees vary a really good dog might cost more to use, or you could be importing semen and have to cover storage fees ect. heck, you might be importing dogs for your breeding program and that runs to well over $10000 in most cases - perhaps you had to fly your dog to meet a stud in another state so add that cost on top too. You begin to see why for so many people this is considered a passionate hobby and not a business. Ok, so if someone was selling pups for say $1500 each and there were 10 in the litter, and they had their own stud dog so no fee there. That would be a total of $15,000 per litter (according to regulations 1 per year). How would a breeder spend that much (minus expenses) in one year on showing, training, vet checks, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer If she has 10 pups. I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that. You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc. I don't have a problem with ethical breeders making a bit of money out of what they do, I know most ethical breeders who actually care about dogs will rescue so I have a lot of respect for them. I would happily give that extra bit for the cause of the dog/breed. I'm a curious person, I would like to know what the actual costs are for breeders, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaxx'sBuddy Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 (edited) I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer If she has 10 pups. I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that. You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc. I don't have a problem with ethical breeders making a bit of money out of what they do, I know most ethical breeders who actually care about dogs will rescue so I have a lot of respect for them. I would happily give that extra bit for the cause of the dog/breed. I'm a curious person, I would like to know what the actual costs are for breeders, that's all. i think that is their business and no one elses business. and i think its a bit rude to ask the question Edited June 3, 2010 by Jaxx'sBuddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kissindra Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer depends on which show and how many shows. There are also things like memberships, council fees for breeding licences ect that vary greatly from place to place. Also, the going rate for a puppy varies greatly between breeds and often within breeds. Some states have different requirements for selling pups such as mandatory microchipping. You also might find the stud fees vary a really good dog might cost more to use, or you could be importing semen and have to cover storage fees ect. heck, you might be importing dogs for your breeding program and that runs to well over $10000 in most cases - perhaps you had to fly your dog to meet a stud in another state so add that cost on top too. You begin to see why for so many people this is considered a passionate hobby and not a business. Ok, so if someone was selling pups for say $1500 each and there were 10 in the litter, and they had their own stud dog so no fee there. That would be a total of $15,000 per litter (according to regulations 1 per year). How would a breeder spend that much (minus expenses) in one year on showing, training, vet checks, etc. any number of scenarios really, they could have multiple dogs to feed and house, perhaps they have needed to upgrade kennel facilities if they house their dogs in kennels - maybe they have to pay kennel hands a wage. Heck maybe they spent that much on a dog trailer or campervan to get to shows I have ONE show dog, he's a puppy - we've probably spent around $15000 upgrading to a bigger car, moving to a property with a yard, and buying all sorts of crap related to going to shows like gazebos, camping equipment ect. And I'm not a breeder :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer depends on which show and how many shows. There are also things like memberships, council fees for breeding licences ect that vary greatly from place to place. Also, the going rate for a puppy varies greatly between breeds and often within breeds. Some states have different requirements for selling pups such as mandatory microchipping. You also might find the stud fees vary a really good dog might cost more to use, or you could be importing semen and have to cover storage fees ect. heck, you might be importing dogs for your breeding program and that runs to well over $10000 in most cases - perhaps you had to fly your dog to meet a stud in another state so add that cost on top too. You begin to see why for so many people this is considered a passionate hobby and not a business. Ok, so if someone was selling pups for say $1500 each and there were 10 in the litter, and they had their own stud dog so no fee there. That would be a total of $15,000 per litter (according to regulations 1 per year). How would a breeder spend that much (minus expenses) in one year on showing, training, vet checks, etc. any number of scenarios really, they could have multiple dogs to feed and house, perhaps they have needed to upgrade kennel facilities if they house their dogs in kennels - maybe they have to pay kennel hands a wage. Heck maybe they spent that much on a dog trailer or campervan to get to shows I have ONE show dog, he's a puppy - we've probably spent around $15000 upgrading to a bigger car, moving to a property with a yard, and buying all sorts of crap related to going to shows like gazebos, camping equipment ect. And I'm not a breeder :D Exactly, I will buy a bigger car, etc, etc because I choose to have a certain breed of dog :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furballs Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother? Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from. ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs. Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer If she has 10 pups. I spend about $1000 a year on trial entry fees, training fees etc plus the time it takes but it is my hobby. Also I only trial about once a month not show every weekend. I don't show so you would need a show person to answer that. You seem to have a problem with the fact that someone may make a profit from breeding a litter. They also take a huge risk of loosing the bitch, the pups etc. I don't have a problem with ethical breeders making a bit of money out of what they do, I know most ethical breeders who actually care about dogs will rescue so I have a lot of respect for them. I would happily give that extra bit for the cause of the dog/breed. I'm a curious person, I would like to know what the actual costs are for breeders, that's all. i think that is their business and no one elses business. and i think its a bit rude to ask the question Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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