Why Do People Cross Breed ?

[Jumabaar]

I don't understand when breeders talk about the ongoing costs of keeping the bitch.....isn't it the same as any other responsible dog owner? Or is there something special when it comes to breeding bitches? It costs me a crap load in food, toys, vet bills, etc to have my dogs so what extras are there for their mother?

Because the ongoing cost of the bitch is part of the cost of breeding a litter. You need to factor in things like entry fees for shows, trials etc that are part of proving your bitch is worth breeding from.

ETA the average pet isn't DNA tested as new tests become available, hip and elbow scored, yearly eye and other health tests etc that are carried out on breeding dogs.

Ok, so what are the costs for shows, etc per year? If the bitch has a littler of 10 pups each time she is bred that's a fair amount of money. I have always wondered about this so would be keen to know the answer

depends on which show and how many shows. There are also things like memberships, council fees for breeding licences ect that vary greatly from place to place. Also, the going rate for a puppy varies greatly between breeds and often within breeds. Some states have different requirements for selling pups such as mandatory microchipping.

You also might find the stud fees vary a really good dog might cost more to use, or you could be importing semen and have to cover storage fees ect. heck, you might be importing dogs for your breeding program and that runs to well over $10000 in most cases - perhaps you had to fly your dog to meet a stud in another state so add that cost on top too. You begin to see why for so many people this is considered a passionate hobby and not a business.

Ok, so if someone was selling pups for say $1500 each and there were 10 in the litter, and they had their own stud dog so no fee there. That would be a total of $15,000 per litter (according to regulations 1 per year). How would a breeder spend that much (minus expenses) in one year on showing, training, vet checks, etc.

In all honesty how many breeds that are likely to whelp ten in a litter are also breeds where your average pet pup is sold for $15000? For me to whelp a litter I

1) bought my foundation bitch

2) fed, vaccinated, wormed her

3) Payed miscilanous other vet bills

4) joined my State Canine controling body

5) applied for a prefix

6) traveled interstate 4 times to decied on stud dogs/got advice

7) Joined OB club, agility club, flyball club, herding club, tracking club inorder to show my dogs potential against set guidlines. Also then eneterd many different comps in these disciplins

8) Showed her weekly ($10.00 per show 2-3 shows per weekend)

9) Vet check for helth prior to mating

10) bloods to test for correct time of mating

11) Payed stud fees

12) Wormed, Vaccinaed, fed puppies

13) bought crate and puppy pen for puppies

14) forked out over $1000 on vet bills to save my own pup

That is the BARE minimum that I can think of off the top of my head that I had to pay for to produce ONE litter. They were Kelpies and I can let you know that the pups (only 5 in the litter) were sold for less than $1000.

Also while I was raising these pups I had to take time of from work (uni studnet so Thats quite hard for me to do!!) so technically I should also factor in a wage to the above cost as well!!

How many of these costs do the irresponsible breeders rack up? and yet sell their pups for far far more than I could even imagin.

To answer your question I am probably out of pocket will over the $15000 you belive I make in profit as a breeder. Over a number of litters I would expect that overhead to come down somewhat if I bred every year- but then profit would go back into importing new lines and even potentially into research into health problems within the breed. However since she will only have one more litter I doubt that it will make much difference because you have to pay it all again for the next generation!

Once again what do the irresponsible breeders contribute toward the health research- appart from affected dogs to study!!!!

Edited June 3, 2010 by woofenpup

[Kissindra]

dear lordy If I refused to bestow any worth on anyone who didn't wish to give me a blow by blow of their financials I'd find myself in quite a pickle - or without pickles entirely as the case may be - I don't pick where to get a dog from based solely on proffit or loss(actually quite a few people here wouldn't be able to tell you as they don't want to know how much they've managed to spend - good dogs in good homes is the proffit) I base it on the research I put in finding out about their dogs and the breed in general, I base it on their ethics, I base it on whether they do the right thing by their animals - a minority of registered breeders wouldn't make the cut but every puppy farmer would fail instantly

it isn't simply whether someone makes a proffit or a loss - it is whether making a proffit is the only focus to the detriment of all else.

Certainly there will be people making a proffit, and more power to them if they manage it while maintaining sound ethics and sound practises. I daresay it doesn't happen overnight and is a result of years of hard work and NOT making a proffit, or indeed plain old good luck with matings all going to plan and good litter sizes. I imagine there are breeds more likely to make a proffit than others for a variety of factors, and if the demand is there and you don't stint on the important parts I'll cheer you on as you spend your proffits but cut corners, treat animals like crap, breed with no reguard to the future, sell puppies to anyone with enough cash, lie to puppy buyers and treat your animals as disposable stock first and foremost and I'll cheerfully hope you choke on your wads of cash :D

Edited June 3, 2010 by Kissindra

[Wazzat Xolo]

Apart from Labradoodles, spoodles etc.. Why do people feel the need to cross breed?

I find it disturbing to see strange mixes which are done on purpose, eg Roti x poodle, pug x cav etc, etc

And why did they start crossing maltese with shih tzu ? :D :D

(I should add, I know the reasons why they cross labs with poodles, don't agree with it.)

Forgive me if I word things badly.

In the USA they have Ugly Dog Comps which carry a lot of prize money!! As the hairless breeds can be known for their unique looks and often lack of, or primitive looking teeth, the lure of the hairless dog to breed with another dog to win these comps is sometimes all too much!

Its pure greed on this account and so many Xolos and cresteds end up in pounds and shelters as a result. I have already had people in Australia calling and emailing me with oversized cresteds asking if they are a Xolo lol

The almighty $$ is an evil thing at times!

[Kissindra]

Apart from Labradoodles, spoodles etc.. Why do people feel the need to cross breed?

I find it disturbing to see strange mixes which are done on purpose, eg Roti x poodle, pug x cav etc, etc

And why did they start crossing maltese with shih tzu ? :D :D

(I should add, I know the reasons why they cross labs with poodles, don't agree with it.)

Forgive me if I word things badly.

In the USA they have Ugly Dog Comps which carry a lot of prize money!! As the hairless breeds can be known for their unique looks and often lack of, or primitive looking teeth, the lure of the hairless dog to breed with another dog to win these comps is sometimes all too much!

Its pure greed on this account and so many Xolos and cresteds end up in pounds and shelters as a result. I have already had people in Australia calling and emailing me with oversized cresteds asking if they are a Xolo lol

The almighty $$ is an evil thing at times!

I do recall watching one year and seeing a woman say she was entering the son of a former winner - an unfortunate dog with health problems and an unknown history Made me quite sad to think on it. But then, there are those minority breeding crap to chase show ribbons too - human nature, what a joy! It's why doing you research when purchasing a pup is so important.

[Wazzat Xolo]

Furballs

The actual costs to breders I can state mine up front, as I dont like to hide things!!

I have only half read the thread so forgive me if I have answered wrongly or missed your point.

I can state a cost to a breeder in terms of a new breed being established in this country, I will never recoup any money spent, even if I bred for many years as establishing a breed and educating the public costs, costs.

Apart from the original costs of the male and two females ( bare min for a breed to even start)

there are the import, quarantine fees, vet fees, paperwork, breeder calls, legal fees etc.

Then there is the (as others have stated )

Health Tests, hips, elbows, eyes, DNA , vet check ups, suitable vehicle, suitable kennel runs, breed club fees, entry fees, world wide club fees, International Phone calls

\Showing fees, education to the public, education to judges, prep of paperwork and Breed Power Points, associated costs with maunfacture of above and distribution.

Plus all the interstate travel to showcase the breed for others to see, entry fees, hotel fees, loss of income for myself and husband due to travel. Paid fees to look after other dogs at home.

I am sure there is a lot more, not to mention the 12 months I have taken off work, to try to establish the breed and allocation of time to training, education. ( no income, yet still expenditure).

After all this I am still only a tip of an iceberg as I have to do the whole process again for a diffferent size.

AND on top of that when the bitch I have does have puppies ( assuming they are suitable show quality puppies) they will be on a lease basis to establish the breed in all states, so thats me still out of pocket as I have to pay a Insurance plan on these dogs too!!

Now lets add all this up I stopped once I got to $60,000

I dont suppose in a litter of four I could ask $15,000 a pup now could I ??

Nah that would not even cover the base costs! lol

Breeders do not make $$ they do it beacuse they love the breed and are proud to part of something that is so enjoyable and ingrained in them its almost a feeling I cant describe. I am lucky in that I have the experience of many great breeders who guide me in my breed and a few gurus here in Australia that have been very helpful. I feel for the cross bred breeders as they will never have the feeling of satisfaction that a pure bred breeder gets and the constant knowledge in that they are doing the best for their chosen breed.

Its not about the money and never has been to the professionals, just ask the oldies!

Better to find a good home than the almighty $$

J

[Paulp]

I have a cousin who is currently studying vet science in a very reputable university. Their lecturer actually said that MOST cross-breeds are healthier than pure breeds. And the lecturer also said that is why Guide Dogs are usually Lab/GR cross. Then I asked my cousin whether they have data to prove it or not but my cousin said he is not sure about this.

I talked to someone from guide dogs vic about this a while back and she said that the lab/GR was in favour because of their even temperament and that it only works for a first generation cross from pure bred parents.

[Baileys mum]

This is in reply to furballs enquiry regarding breeders costs,sorry if it is OT.

I've just bred my first litter, & I can say I will not be making a profit from my litter of 8.

After paying for my dogs vic membership, my prefix (including payment for prefix exam ) health checks on my dogs, vet fees including vaccinations, check ups, ultrasounds, check up after whelping. Extra food for my bitch during pregnancy & lactation.Then I had to buy my whelping box,towels, vet bed, medical/whelping supplies,syringes, bottles, milk replacer, heat pads, puppy pens,ect...

Then I had to worm the pups, vaccinate/vet check them, pay registration fees for them, pay for their food, pay to advertise them.

The price of my puppies also includes a puppy pack, that includes 7 days worth of food, a puppy blanket, some toys & treats for the puppy, a collar & lead & a puppy care & training book, photos of the sire & mother of the pup & a photo of the litter. (About $85.00 value) per puppy pack.

There is so many other miscellaneous costs, but these are the main things I can think of at the moment.

The point is after adding all the costs up, I will pretty much just about break even, I will be keeping one of the pups, so you could say I have benefited from this breeding as I am gaining a beautiful pup from it.

I didn't breed to make money from it any way,I think for most reputable breeders it isn't even about the money, I did it for the love of my breed, It kind of annoys me when I tell people my bitch had 8 puppies& the first thing they say is "wow isn't she a purebred? your going to make a fortune selling all those puppies, when in reality after all your exspenses you actually don't.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Baileys mum

[D & D]

dear lordy If I refused to bestow any worth on anyone who didn't wish to give me a blow by blow of their financials I'd find myself in quite a pickle - or without pickles entirely as the case may be - I don't pick where to get a dog from based solely on proffit or loss(actually quite a few people here wouldn't be able to tell you as they don't want to know how much they've managed to spend - good dogs in good homes is the proffit) I base it on the research I put in finding out about their dogs and the breed in general, I base it on their ethics, I base it on whether they do the right thing by their animals - a minority of registered breeders wouldn't make the cut but every puppy farmer would fail instantly

it isn't simply whether someone makes a proffit or a loss - it is whether making a proffit is the only focus to the detriment of all else.

Certainly there will be people making a proffit, and more power to them if they manage it while maintaining sound ethics and sound practises. I daresay it doesn't happen overnight and is a result of years of hard work and NOT making a proffit, or indeed plain old good luck with matings all going to plan and good litter sizes. I imagine there are breeds more likely to make a proffit than others for a variety of factors, and if the demand is there and you don't stint on the important parts I'll cheer you on as you spend your proffits but cut corners, treat animals like crap, breed with no reguard to the future, sell puppies to anyone with enough cash, lie to puppy buyers and treat your animals as disposable stock first and foremost and I'll cheerfully hope you choke on your wads of cash :D

+1. Well said.

Furballs, I think you will find that an ethical breeder who does make a profit, will pump all of that profit (and a heck of a lot more) back into their lines. Sometimes it will be for their next litter, or campaigning the keeper from their last litter, or importing, or all the other things that come with being ethical.

[corvus]

ETA: They also assume that cross-breeding will lead to getting all the desired characteristics (EG non-shedding coats).

In the past, it has. That's how purebreeds came about. The problem is it was a dedicated activity and took many generations. Cross-breeding DD is more haphazard in general.

It concerns me that apparently dogs are so riddled with genetic health problems that you can't cross a healthy dog with a healthy dog and expect healthy puppies. What does that bode for domestic dogs as a species?

[Ellie]

"Why is it rude to ask the question? Do breeders have something to hide? Why then should I not buy my next pup from a puppy farmer?"

Furballs, if you do a google search on puppy farmers and have a look at how these establishments keep their breeding bitches and puppies, perhaps that may help you to decide where to buy your next dog.

[Crisovar]

To be honest, I think the cross bred kelpies are probably better working dogs

And your experience with working dogs is?

Probably on par with my experiences as an astronaut

[wuffles]

In any case, much as I love the look of the pure breed doggies (I would love to have a shiba inu!), I can't imagine ever spending so much money on buying a pedigree dog when there are so many other less fortunate dogs in need of a home. It's not that we're stingy either ... even raising a mongrel puppy becomes very expensive after all the vaccinations, desexing, puppy classes, obedience ... and the squillions and squillions of treats and dog toys

I paid $800 for my purebred working breed, both parents completely health tested (hips/elbows, eyes, genetic disorders). I'm pretty sure my breeder made no profit whatsoever from her litter.

My mutt was $250 from rescue and he came desexed, vaccinated, with basic training. I would NEVER buy from a backyard breeder when there are so many beautiful dogs in rescue. I wouldn't even take one for free!

I think a lot of dogs are crossed because they "look cuter" and "special" to the Average Joe wanting to buy a dog. Even if you read the threads on this forum about 'what dog should I get', most of them discount the best breed for them due to looks. Maltese x shihtzu are fluffy little things with sweet features. Pug x whatever I personally find not so attractive, but so many people I know think their funny looks are really cute.

[koalathebear]

My mutt was $250 from rescue and he came desexed, vaccinated, with basic training. I would NEVER buy from a backyard breeder when there are so many beautiful dogs in rescue. I wouldn't even take one for free!

Our puppy wasn't from a backyard breeder - I think there must have been accidental puppies because the owner didn't desex their (male) dog but you raise an interesting question. I see why you wouldn't take a free puppy from a backyard breeder because it's further encouraging the practice to continue but what about the fate of those puppies? Don't they need rescue, too?

[Shmurps]

I guess I live in hope that one day the horrid puppy farm factory will no longer exist and pet shops will no longer be able to sell pups.

And from what I gather the good, ethical pure breed, breeders are dropping out and will this affect gene pools?

So where would people source pups from if this were to happen?

[MalteseLuna]

I have a cousin who is currently studying vet science in a very reputable university. Their lecturer actually said that MOST cross-breeds are healthier than pure breeds. And the lecturer also said that is why Guide Dogs are usually Lab/GR cross. Then I asked my cousin whether they have data to prove it or not but my cousin said he is not sure about this.

I talked to someone from guide dogs vic about this a while back and she said that the lab/GR was in favour because of their even temperament and that it only works for a first generation cross from pure bred parents.

I have yet to see an obviously cross bred guide dog - my auntie used to be heavily involved in Guide Dogs NSW. She used to foster puppies. I see Guide Dogs occasionally and they always look like purebred Labs or GR. It's fairly obvious generally if it's a cross. Why would the cross have a more even temperament than a pure lab or GR both of which are renowned for having excellent temperaments? Just because a lecturer or vet from a respected university says something does not mean it's true

There is absolutely NO evidence that cross-breeds are healthier because nobody has actually done any research on this matter (to my knowledge). Diseases in Purebreds are clearly documented however nobody has a database of cross-breds with health information this is why the myth started. The number of crossbreds I know of who have health problems is larger that the number of purebreds I know of who have health problems. The myth of hybrid vigour is strong however not really valid. Breeding 2 unhealthy/poorly bred animals together whether from the same breed or different breeds doesn't automatically create a magical super healthy puppy. They are still the same species so they aren't hybrids anyway.

The whole purebreds are more expensive is completely untrue. Pet store cross-breds are routinely sold for $1500 to $3000 dollars whilst a purebred Maltese from a reputable breeder may cost $900-$1200 dollars. Most purebred puppies are less expensive that pet store animals because reputable breeders aren't trying to make a profit whilst pet stores are.

[Jaxx'sBuddy]

furballs if you dont like what breeders charge and dont like pure bred dogs then you are on the wrong forum.

[poodlefan]

The whole purebreds are more expensive is completely untrue. Pet store cross-breds are routinely sold for $1500 to $3000 dollars whilst a purebred Maltese from a reputable breeder may cost $900-$1200 dollars. Most purebred puppies are less expensive that pet store animals because reputable breeders aren't trying to make a profit whilst pet stores are.

Standard mark up on a pet shop pup is more than double what they pay for them.

If you don't like expensive purebreds, don't buy one. Don't pay for known ancestry, an increased degree of predictability of what your adult dog will be, health testing for known inheritable conditions or careful raising of the pup until you get it at 8 weeks of age. Don't pay for lifetime support from someone knowledgeable about the breed and puppies.

None of that is clearly worth anything now is it? There are plenty of breeds where pups sell for under $1,000. Worked out over the life of the dog, you pay more for Foxtel.

If you wouldn't buy a car cobbled together in a backyard by someone with no mechanical knowledge and from whatever parts are lying around, why on earth would you want a dog made that way?

And anyone who can't see the problem of buying from a puppy farmer (who often are as expensive as registered breeders) either doesn't understand what the term entails or clearly doesn't give a rats arse about animal welfare.

Edited June 4, 2010 by poodlefan

[MalteseLuna]

The whole purebreds are more expensive is completely untrue. Pet store cross-breds are routinely sold for $1500 to $3000 dollars whilst a purebred Maltese from a reputable breeder may cost $900-$1200 dollars. Most purebred puppies are less expensive that pet store animals because reputable breeders aren't trying to make a profit whilst pet stores are.

Standard mark up on a pet shop pup is more than double what they pay for them.

If you don't like expensive purebreds, don't buy one. Don't pay for known ancestry, an increased degree of predictability of what your adult dog will be, health testing for known inheritable conditions or careful raising of the pup until you get it at 8 weeks of age. Don't pay for lifetime support from someone knowledgeable about the breed and puppies.

None of that is clearly worth anything now is it? :p There are plenty of breeds where pups sell for under $1,000. Worked out over the life of the dog, you pay more for Foxtel.

If you wouldn't buy a car cobbled together in a backyard by someone with no mechanical knowledge and from whatever parts are lying around, why on earth would you want a dog made that way?

And anyone who can't see the problem of buying from a puppy farmer (who often are as expensive as registered breeders) either doesn't understand what the term entails or clearly doesn't give a rats arse about animal welfare.

Exactly

[lanabanana]

In answer to the OP

Why do people cross breed? Because there is demand for cross breed dogs - it is that simple.

Why do they charge stupid amounts for cute little cross breeds? Because people will pay it - its that simple.

I personally have no problem with breeding of any sort, pure or cross, providing the breeder is responsible and ethical and has all the relevant health checks done for the parents to lessen the likelihood of genetic disorders from either breed showing up in the pups.

Granted, hybrid viguer (sp) can and does happen, but also the opposite can happen where the pup takes on every bad health issue from both of the parents.

I have a wee cross/hybrid which was accidentally bought from a back yard breeder. I initially thought it was an accidental mating, these things happen. It didn't bother me she was asking $220 for the pups as pups cost money to raise. We went and looked at the pups and selected our girl and I started asking the lady about vet visits and vaxs etc...she had done none of it. She hadn't flead them, wormed them or taken them for a vet visit at all (they were 8 weeks old). I was absolutely horrified. Anyway, this just firmed up our decision to take our baby home as we felt she needed to be taken somewhere safe (and she was so cute I had already fallen in love) and then we said to the lady, we will give you $180....thats when we realised she was a BYB because her response was "You are getting her cheap anyway because I usually charge $250" and then told us her two dogs (a foxy and a shih tzu) had had something like 3 or 4 litters. Now I can say I should have put the puppy back so as not to encourage BYBers...but I was already set on her, I felt she needed to come with us and if I didn't take her, someone else would have. I don't know what health issues she may end up with, if any, but now I know she is in a home where she will be looked after and get any treatment she needs. Thus far she is a healthy little girl (1 next week) and very robust, she is a gorgeous scruffy little dog and I am glad I got her - BYB or not.

However, I would not recommend purchasing from a BYB.

My friend purchase last week a pug/griffon mix (very very cute) off what some might say is a BYB. However, they run health checks on both parents for things both breeds may have (I can't remember some of the names). They provide a list of breed traits for each breed and explain that the pup may be a mixture of two, or one or something different, they provide information around genetic disorders. They put them in contact with other pug/griffon owners and all pups were health checked and the list goes on. Pretty responsible if you ask me and I have no problem with cross breeders like that.

At the end of the day, any breeder, pure or cross, can be responsible or irresponsible so research should definitely be done into the breeder of choise regardless of what is being bred - if that makes sense.

Gone off on a big fat waffle.....

[Shmurps]

But I don't see why you would cross those 2 breeds