Help/advice Needed Please- Raising A Litter Of Puppies (mother Is Stra

[Pipsal]

I live in a remote area with no access to vet, etc. There are a lot of stray or very uncared for dogs around and one of them who started to show up at the local school every day - and that we showed some kindness to (only by talking to her, not feeding/patting etc), has found where we live and has dug a hole under the front gate. She then spends every night sleeping on or under our stairs....still not feeding her etc, but she's determined to try and make this home!

About 3 weeks ago she had a litter of puppies under a building, and my friend decided to take them and her home and keep her in the laundry for the first couple of weeks to give them a good start - most feeding dogs here are really starving, so we could give mum some food to keep her healthy. We are planning to take the pups in to a shelter or find homes for them as soon as they are weaned. They are now outside in a makeshift pen that allows mum to come and go but keeps pups safe.

Sorry for so much info - but I want to explain the situation before I get shot down as a backyard breeder! Anyway....on to my questions/concerns.... There are 5 puppies, all have grown heaps, and started opening their eyes at about 11 days old. They started moving around pretty much soon after this, and now they are 23 days old they are exploring, yapping, and playing - still a bit unsteady on their feet, but improving every day. They are starting to recognise me when I go in to them I think because they now come out and start licking my feet!

Problem 1. Mum dog has for the past few days decided to leave pups and go to the school for food (old habit, even though we are feeding her a lotQu) and social I think as she loves it there. Puppies are then left for up to 6hrs by themselves...is this too long without food for 21 day old pups? They are quite solid pups, not skinny at all (yet).

Problem 2. One pup was constantly crying this afternoon for hours on and off - mum dog was back but standing guard at the gate and not going in with the pups, so still not feeding them. I even took crying pup to her and she seemed to try and try to latch on but kept crying and moved from one nipple to the other without success it seemed. Does this mean she has stopped making milk? Could there be another problem?

Query 1. A couple of the pups were showing interest in mums dog biscuits yesterday - they would get a piece in their mouth then spit it out. I put out some puppy dry food mixed with water this afternoon, and surprisingly they all went straight into it quite intensely! They were lapping up the water I think, and maybe eating the little biscuits too because most of them gradually disappeared - and they didn't completely dissolve. Does this sound too early for just over 3 weeks old? If mum is not feeding them properly then we need to do something? Will this do? I have puppy dry biscuits, and a couple of cans of puppy chcken and rice soft food....I don't have access to a shop until the weekend at least so I hope this will do? Can I feed them too much- I took away what I put down because their bellies were getting pretty full and they were still eating?

Query 2. We wormed mum a couple of weeks before pups were due so don't seem to have worms problem yet - but when is it ok to give them worming treatment - and flea treatment? And mum too, can she have these things while she is feeding?

Thanks for any advice, etc!

[Parkeyre]

1.

Keep mum dog contained... a wandering dog can be a safety hazard, to herself and people.

2.

Could the pup be constipated? are they toileting on their own? hold the genetalia to mum and see if she will stimulate the pup.

you can do this gently with a warm cloth.

Q1. If you are worried, start supplimenting the pups with puppy formula, and you can mix this with arrowroot biscuits, or weetbix etc all crushed up and warmed.

Q2. Worming can start now.

ETA: worming, not weaning

Edited June 2, 2010 by Bonnie Parker

[SilverHaze]

And the pups should be wormed now as well.

[Kirislin]

Definitely start feeding the puppies now. A good quality puppy dry food softened with water and some fresh mince stirred through is ok. Of course if you haven't got that just use what you have, it's better than nothing. Yes, as previously mentioned they need to be wormed, so does their mum. You need to worm them every 2 weeks until they're 3 months old (I think, if I am wrong here someone will correct me.)

[kelpiekaye]

Good on you for helping this dog.

You can supplement feed the pups from now on. You can get puppy food. I hand reared two pups once and put them on solids at three weeks and they were fine. Good Luck

[Kirislin]

You might be able to buy some products on line, things like worm tabs and flea treatments, maybe even puppy dry food. Do you get mail delivered daily?

And yes, good on you for helping mum and babies. Can you afford to get them all desexed, including mum. I wonder if there's financial help somewhere for stuff like that, it would be a pity if she just gets pregnant again but I can understand the cost might be prohibitive for you.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Kirislin

[shortstep]

Good on you for helping this mother and her pups.

I agree with the above post, keep mom home, and worm the pups every 10-14 days and do try to get this done ASAP (worms will cause stomach upset, colic and loose stools).

I start my pups on food at 3-4 weeks. I get at the grocery a box of infants rice cereal. I cook a small amount of dark meat chicken and mush it up. Mix up the cereal with warm water (not too thick the more water you use the more hydrated the pups will be which is good) and mix in a small amount of chicken. Put mom away so she does not eat it. I spread the mush on a big flat plate and sit on the floor with the babies. I put them on the edge of the plate, usually they will start right off licking it up, if not put a bit in their mouths.

After they have finished let mom clean up the plate and the pups. I feed once the first day, 2 x's the second day and 3 times the 3rd day. If mom stops nursing I increase to 4 X a day on day 4. If they are not drinking well, I get rice milk and warm it slightly, they like this and it also has some nutritional value. Do not use cows milk.

In about a week you can start them on your puppy biscuits. At first soak them in water to soften and mix a few in with the mush recipe above, slowly each meal add more biscuits and less mush and slowly stop soaking them. By 5 weeks they can be on dry biscuits, feed 3-4 times a day.

You will need to look into how you can get them vaccinated when they are older (around 7 weeks, perhaps there is a visiting vet?

Edited June 1, 2010 by shortstep

[badboyz]

Pipal, well soaked puppy food is a perfectly suitable diet for the baby pups. It can be mushed up like a porridge so they do not choke on the hard bits, until they have their teeth and get the hang of chewing. I would not recommend you adding extras like baby cereal or weetbix or arrowroot - it is not necessary and they will get more than enough cereals from the puppy dry food. Do not add milk either - again unnecessary. A little raw mince would be a welcome addition. Natural yoghurt would also be very beneficial.

Worm them now and again in a couple of weeks. Pups (and mum too) should be vet checked and vaccinated at about 7 wks.

Good on you for taking them in and I agree it would be far better if you can manage to keep mum & pups safely in your yard.

Pics would be most welcome.

Edited June 2, 2010 by badboyz

[Pipsal]

Thanks for your replies and encouragement! In response to various comments/suggestions:

Firstly, I fed the puppies the dry puppy biscuits with water 3 times today and they finished it all. Mum fed them a little a couple of times too.

We tried to keep mum in the yard, and brought her back from the school (because she took off early in the morning), and blocked the hole under the gate. She stayed there until we got home from work, but in the afternoon she wanted to chase/bark at trail bikes/horses/people that went past and pulled away our blockade and got out under the fence - she hangs around out the front then. Then later this evening I blocked it so she couldn't move it, and I went outside to check on them as it is getting quite cold at night, and she's siting on the other side of the fence looking at me. She must have jumped it, cos I can't see how else she did it, and then wouldn't jump to get back in...needless to say for tonight anyway, I have now left the gate open again tonight because she generally settles by now and the pups need her warmth so I don't want her to get stuck outside. We will have to look at what else we can do tomorrow.

As for desexing, I can't afford to get all the pups done! We were planning to take them into the nearest town (2hrs drive) and give them to a shelter to find homes for. We are also putting the word out around our community area. With mum, we would love to have her done as this is the 3rd litter in the 18mths I've known of her in town! But we need to find someone to take her on permanently as we are not in a position to. We will pay for it, and have even thought about having it done and then letting her keep on living as she has been (because believe it or not I think she has a pretty good life here - she loves running around town and visiting people, going to the school where the kids feed her, etc). I don't know that I could see her being happy confined in a surburban environment... Anyway, our concern about this is that by having her desexed she might loose some of that 'survival' instinct - she's very clever and knows where and who to go to for whatever she needs....some people have said that she would loose that and need to have a home to survive? Any ideas on this?

Worming was already on the agenda, but there is no shop within 2hrs drive so it has to wait for someone's run in this weekend. I looked at a supermarket last weekend but couldn't find anything that listed puppies this young which is why I asked about it - can anyone recommend what type to get/where to get it? Mail comes most days here, but it might be quicker to get it on the weekend as we're probably too late to get it before this weekend. Also, what about flea treatments?

3 of the pups I have seen toileting. I'm not sure about the other 2....and I'm a little concerned because their bellies are quite 'full' and rounded. Does this mean they may not be toileting yet? I held both pups up to mum as someone suggested and she did lick them a bit, I am hoping this does something - will check tomorrow though. I know it could be worms, but wouldn't they all have that? Because 3 of them are fine. I think the pup that was crying a lot yesterday is just a whinger....I think she can see the best because she was following me this afternoon and then sitting between my feet almost for comfort when mum wasn't around. The 2 that have swollen bellies are not moving around as much as the others - they almost seem more immature/less developed, and they are more unsteady on their feet...I was away when their eyes opened etc but I know that the 2 pups that are the most active/alert now were first.

Have attached some pics for badboyz and anyone else who is interested (kelpiekay might be too cos i think mum dog is large part kelpie...).

[stef_83]

im a little confused....... u took her in or a friend took her in? and if she is a stray how do u know this is her 3rd litter?

a u able to confind her in a dog run? or make the pen sides higher so she cant her out? that might help stopping her from getting out.

also not desexing her so she can survive as a stray??? dont u think desexing her and rehoming her on a secure large property would be better?

desexing might help with stopping her from wandering.

i dont know much bout these things so dont quote me

good luck

edited to add not trying to accuse of anything i am literally just confused

Edited June 2, 2010 by stef_83

[mumof3]

Pipsal

Can I ask, are you in an Aboriginal community, settlement or town camp? Much of what you say rings bells of familiarity (about isolation and lots of unloved and not desexed dogs running around). And is this bitch a camp bitch? If so, I admire your attempt to make things a little better and wish you all the very best. If she is a camp bitch, you will have a hard time containing her, and trying to will only distress her, personally, I wouldn't try (because I understand the nature of being in a town camp). Perhaps nearby station people may consider giving the puppies a home, or other government employees like teachers, police, council etc. Anyway, good luck. I am also in an isolated area in NW QLD.

[Loving my Oldies]

I have nothing to add that would help you as I don't know anything about bringing up puppies . I just wanted to add my thanks to how you are caring for all the dogs and hope you can find them all great homes. You sure seem to have a great big heart.

Good luck.

[Pipsal]

mumof3...you have to experience it to really understand don't you! Yes, I am in a remote Aboriginal community.

And to clear some stuff up, my friends and I are government workers and our accommodation is all next to each other. The dog has formed an 'attachment' with myself and a couple of colleagues and has been sleeping in my front yard (getting under gate) the whole year so far, except when we put an old dog bed out the front of the other girls place - so the dog would sit on my steps until I went to bed at night and then go sleep there while she was pregnant - but we still didn't feed her because we were trying not to encourage it. The pups started out for first week in my friends laundry (she had the pups under a building near another colleague's place so we knew where to find her, but she wouldn't come out to eat or anything because other dogs were hanging around which is why we took them back to our place), and they have now ended up in my yard for the past 2 weeks, and from now on by the looks....we are both still taking care of them, but now they are here I seem to be doing more which is why I'm asking questions.

I know this sounds cruel, and again, it is hard to understand if you haven't been here, and I can tell you that we are really struggling with trying not to get too attached to this dog but she's making it very difficult (and I think she knows it)! Given the situation/community we live in we are *trying* to not take her in as such which is why we are letting her come and go as she has always done, but have the pups safe so they can't get out but mum can get in. Technically she is not a stray I guess - I know who owns her, and that is how I have known her long enough to have 3 litters. She seemed to be a very loved and cared for dog and has a beautiful nature, but towards the end of last year she stopped going home and started sleeping under a building - we can only guess as to why, but she's a smart dog and something unpleasant must have happened to her (not at all uncommon here unfortunately). We have been to see her 'previous' owners and told them we have the puppies, and they said they don't want anything to do with them....when we asked about the mother dog the comment was "she doesn't come here any more".

We will try and devise some sort of solution to the fence tomorrow, but we have limited resources until we go shopping, and even then I know she will hate it (mostly when we are not around, if someone is there she's fine). Part of the reason we can't take her on permanently is that we're from Brisbane and going back there at some point, and I think it would be cruel for her to end up there - which is why we considered desexing her and leaving her here if we can't find a home for her....we ARE trying to find a home for her btw, every government employee and some of the caring locals have been asked, but nothing yet.

[Kirislin]

I am guessing the pups with big tummies have a heavy worm burden. The sooner they are wormed the better. Since you have internet access you can buy vet products such as worming tablets and flea treatments online. http://www.vetnpetdirect.com.au/dog-supplies-vet-meds this might be the easist way for you.

I think if you could desex her it would be good. I doubt it would affect her instinct to survive. I think alot of animal welfare groups do this to the feral populations in other countries and quite possibly in Australia too. At least she wont keep adding to the sad and sorry dog population already there that probably sees alot of dogs die. I wonder if the vet might even consider doing it as a welfare case and hopefully charging you less to spey her.

Good luck with it.

[Ciara]

I agree with all the mumof3 has said, you're doing all the right things and I think if you get her desexed and vaccinated, give her all the vet treatment you can before you go (shots etc), and then if you can't find her a home, she would most likely move on and just hang around the community she is used to and lived her whole life in. Moving her might be quite stressful.

A member of my family once had all the town dogs come to live in his yard because he decided to feed them one day.... and they ended up all digging huge holes and dens in his yard and turned it into their own night time potholed camp of their own!

Best of luck finding her a home if you can

Here is a link that might be useful, not sure where you are if east west or north but if you can contact this lady she might have some advice or options?

Desert Dogs

[mumof3]

mumof3...you have to experience it to really understand don't you! Yes, I am in a remote Aboriginal community.

Yep, it really is another world. In so many, many ways. Never lived in one, but have good friends who lived at Port Keats / Wadeye for about 5 years. We had a holiday there, and at Ngukurr in Arnhem Land. Plus we lived and worked throughout the Territory on cattle stations in the nineties. Well, good on you. Hope you find the solutions you are looking for. Someone mentioned vaccination. I wouldn't bother. Somewhere between natural immunity (a vet once counselled me not to bother vaccinating a mature dog because he likely would have some immunity having got to 5 years of age without vaccination), and the idea that sooner or later animals will die, and are unlikely to be humanely pts, I just don't think it would be worth the money. Can't imagine desexing her would be of negative impact, if you can get it done (tricky when the vet is a long way away, perhaps he does a run now and then). The bitch is unlikely to have been travelled in a car, except maybe in a ute, or piled in the back of a unregistered vehicle with about 10 'lations...., so be prepared if you take her to the vet, that the journey may be traumatic for her. Perhaps you can have a word to the next people to occupy the house, make it quite clear that the house comes with a resident... Life is hard for animals in these communities, good luck helping this animal have a happier ending. Remember though, that her idea of happy ending, and yours might be quite different. Try not to impose your ideals onto this dog who really does come from another world.

Enjoy the rest of your stay. Take some art work home with you. I regret not picking up some nice artwork direct from the artist for about $70 for an A3 sized original unframed painting. I've seen much lesser work sell for hundreds of dollars in touristy galleries. Hope you get to see the good side, as well as the bad side, of community life.