Prey Diet

[Rileys mum]

I have made the decision, after some detailed research that I'm going to start feeding a prey model diet to my boy. I already basically have him on one ( feeding beef mince, chicken mince, lamb shanks, necks, chicken carcuses and turkey necks, along with liver, kidney and heart. I was just wondering if I need to be sourcing things like whole rabbits and other animals for him.

What do other raw feeders give their dogs?

[roses2905]

I have a few frozen whole rabbits here if you want them to try your dog/s on. My dogs dont like them and they are taking space up in my freezer.

Im northern suburbs.

[tyra20007]

I am a strict BARF feeder and believe that a dog needs to have balance when being fed raw.

I think that a percentage of vegetables and grain is essential. If you are working on the prey predication then it would mimic the dog eating the stomach contents of small animals such as rabbits who eat grasses and grains, some people argue that a dog discards the stomach but there are arguments for and against everything when it comes to feeding raw. I make a mix of beef mince, minced chicken frames, selective minced offal with a soaked (fermented) mix of the Vets All Natural which adds some whole grain to the diet - this does not get digested instead it stimulates and cleans the intestines and stimulates anal glands, feeding only protein can clag up on the walls and possibly cause problems later in life. I of course feed a lot of raw meaty bones and all my bones and meat are human grade as pet mince can be very much inferior IMO

Info on Vets All Natural http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/PDFS/CMIX.pdf

My dogs also get a live yogurt a couple of times a week and an egg on on other days 2 a week each - I have Dobermann so feed these according to wight of dog obviously. Mine get raw grated vegetables in the mix and plenty of fruit whenever it is available apple, melons, berries even oranges (sadly I cannot eat any fruit without 2 pools of drool appearing on my lap as my 2 both adore all fruit & it has never done them any harm) in the wild a dog would happily eat berries from a bush as fresh prey is not a daily occurance, also dogs will eat grass for many reasons to help digestion and for their gut as well as eating dirt to search for minerals to supplement - they do eat holistically and instinct tells them what they need.

I also add the following supplements to my dogs diets and they do really well on this:

http://www.greenpet.com.au/pet-shop/cart.p...;category_id=74 This is for misc greens.

http://www.greenpet.com.au/pet-shop/cart.p...;category_id=76 A great Omega 3 Blend Oil

http://www.petpepup.com.au/ingredients/ This is a probiotic good to keeping the gut in balance to aid digestion.

Information of the BARF diet

http://www.barfworld.com/index.shtml

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

I am more than happy to give out any information and answer any questions as I fully support people feeding raw (feel free to PM me)- although I personally do not agree with the Prey model when they do not believe in veges/grains/fruits.. but raw is better than processed any day in my opinion.. (warning people around here consider me to be a BARF Nazi LOL - Happy to wear that badge as my dogs are the proof that what I do is working very well thank you very much & the people I have helped to convert from processed to BARF would also atest to this - so Whatever LOL)

[Mas1981]

Tyra I am feeding quite similar to what you do except my dog is fed pet meat as I cannot afford to feed him human grade and I also do the VAN and give him veges etc. I have only just started feeding this way, we were on kibble.

[hopenfox]

I feed whole (furry) rabbits, sheep's heads, ox tongues & hearts, lamb necks, hearts, shanks and ribs, chicken (whole or parts), turkey (parts), pork ribs, hocks & roasts (some shoulder roasts can get quite cheap!),kangaroo (meaty chunks & tails), and goat & venison when I can find it and organs from any of these animal including liver, lungs, brains, kidney, etc.

The goal is to base the diet on whole prey, making up a whole animal over time. The larger the pieces the better so the dog can work on it, exercising his jaws and cleaning his teeth. Mince is used only if the price is impossible to pass up or the dog has no teeth. Or to use to stuff in Kongs.

To keep to a good percentage of 'mostly meat, some bone, some organs', I usually feed two meals of meat, then one with bone, then two of meat again. A large meal of a whole rabbit is usually two or three days worth of food, so I either feed nothing for those days or a small token meal like a couple of chicken hearts.

I get most of my meat from supermarkets & butchers and keep an eye out for marked down or 'on special' meats. Many of the items you have to ask specifically for, since they aren't always on display.

The rabbits come from a ferreter who advertised in the local paper ($8 a pair, skinned or not) and I do get some unwanted meat from some friends who slaughter their own animals.

[SBT101]

I am a strict BARF feeder and believe that a dog needs to have balance when being fed raw.

I think that a percentage of vegetables and grain is essential. If you are working on the prey predication then it would mimic the dog eating the stomach contents of small animals such as rabbits who eat grasses and grains, some people argue that a dog discards the stomach but there are arguments for and against everything when it comes to feeding raw. I make a mix of beef mince, minced chicken frames, selective minced offal with a soaked (fermented) mix of the Vets All Natural which adds some whole grain to the diet - this does not get digested instead it stimulates and cleans the intestines and stimulates anal glands, feeding only protein can clag up on the walls and possibly cause problems later in life. I of course feed a lot of raw meaty bones and all my bones and meat are human grade as pet mince can be very much inferior IMO

Info on Vets All Natural http://www.vetsallnatural.com.au/PDFS/CMIX.pdf

My dogs also get a live yogurt a couple of times a week and an egg on on other days 2 a week each - I have Dobermann so feed these according to wight of dog obviously. Mine get raw grated vegetables in the mix and plenty of fruit whenever it is available apple, melons, berries even oranges (sadly I cannot eat any fruit without 2 pools of drool appearing on my lap as my 2 both adore all fruit & it has never done them any harm) in the wild a dog would happily eat berries from a bush as fresh prey is not a daily occurance, also dogs will eat grass for many reasons to help digestion and for their gut as well as eating dirt to search for minerals to supplement - they do eat holistically and instinct tells them what they need.

I also add the following supplements to my dogs diets and they do really well on this:

http://www.greenpet.com.au/pet-shop/cart.p...;category_id=74 This is for misc greens.

http://www.greenpet.com.au/pet-shop/cart.p...;category_id=76 A great Omega 3 Blend Oil

http://www.petpepup.com.au/ingredients/ This is a probiotic good to keeping the gut in balance to aid digestion.

Information of the BARF diet

http://www.barfworld.com/index.shtml

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm

I am more than happy to give out any information and answer any questions as I fully support people feeding raw (feel free to PM me)- although I personally do not agree with the Prey model when they do not believe in veges/grains/fruits.. but raw is better than processed any day in my opinion.. (warning people around here consider me to be a BARF Nazi LOL - Happy to wear that badge as my dogs are the proof that what I do is working very well thank you very much & the people I have helped to convert from processed to BARF would also atest to this - so Whatever LOL)

Tyra, I tried to PM you but wouldn't allow me too. Need some advice???

[Aso]

I feed whole (furry) rabbits, sheep's heads, ox tongues & hearts, lamb necks, hearts, shanks and ribs, chicken (whole or parts), turkey (parts), pork ribs, hocks & roasts (some shoulder roasts can get quite cheap!),kangaroo (meaty chunks & tails), and goat & venison when I can find it and organs from any of these animal including liver, lungs, brains, kidney, etc.

The goal is to base the diet on whole prey, making up a whole animal over time. The larger the pieces the better so the dog can work on it, exercising his jaws and cleaning his teeth. Mince is used only if the price is impossible to pass up or the dog has no teeth. Or to use to stuff in Kongs.

To keep to a good percentage of 'mostly meat, some bone, some organs', I usually feed two meals of meat, then one with bone, then two of meat again. A large meal of a whole rabbit is usually two or three days worth of food, so I either feed nothing for those days or a small token meal like a couple of chicken hearts.

I get most of my meat from supermarkets & butchers and keep an eye out for marked down or 'on special' meats. Many of the items you have to ask specifically for, since they aren't always on display.

The rabbits come from a ferreter who advertised in the local paper ($8 a pair, skinned or not) and I do get some unwanted meat from some friends who slaughter their own animals.

Hi Hopenfox,

I was wondering if you fed the raw meaty diet to your dogs when they were a pup? We're picking up our Bordeaux puppy in a few weeks and have been researching food for the little (not so little!) fella and are quite keen to start him on the raw meaty diet as prescribed by Tom Lonsdale in his books. This is the diet which made the most sense to us and we're quite keen to hear about first hand experiences. Any practical tips will be greatly appreciated. Tonka's on Pro Plan at the moment and I'm keen to change his diet as soon as we get home. I'm taking time off work so I can supervise him and we will be monitoring his progress very, very carefully. We can't wait for the little fella to arrive !!

[hopenfox]

Hi Hopenfox,

I was wondering if you fed the raw meaty diet to your dogs when they were a pup? We're picking up our Bordeaux puppy in a few weeks and have been researching food for the little (not so little!) fella and are quite keen to start him on the raw meaty diet as prescribed by Tom Lonsdale in his books. This is the diet which made the most sense to us and we're quite keen to hear about first hand experiences. Any practical tips will be greatly appreciated. Tonka's on Pro Plan at the moment and I'm keen to change his diet as soon as we get home. I'm taking time off work so I can supervise him and we will be monitoring his progress very, very carefully. We can't wait for the little fella to arrive !!

Hi Aso,

Great to hear you'll be feeding your new pup raw meaty bones! Unfortunately, I discovered this natural way of feeding when Hope and Fox were adults and I adopted Link when he was 10 months old already, so I haven't yet had the chance to start a young pup on RMBs. Though I do intend to feed all future pups this way.

I believe it is quite simple though - puppies are fed the same way as adults, except the food is divided into smaller meals and fed more often (aprox. 3% of expected ideal adult weight fed daily).

It's usually recommended to start with one protein source (chicken is most often recommended because it has plenty of edible bones), then after a few days, add in something else, then when that's digested fine, ad another kind of meat, and so on.

For a pup as large as yours, I would probably start with feeding whole or half chickens! Some people I've heard like to put down huge chunks of meat, let their pup eat his fill, then remove what's left to the fridge and offer it again at the next meal time, and again until its gone.

Anyway, I'm sure some others will pop in with their experiences raising puppies on RMBs (also called RAW or Prey Model). You could also join the yahoo rawmeatybones group or the rawfeeding group, both of which are filled with many experienced people feeding their dog's and pups this way. This diet guide by Tom Lonsdale could be helpful too.

Hope that helps!

hopenfox

P.S. http://www.rawfeddogs.net/ has lots of good information too - I particularly love the Recipes page!

[Nekhbet]

I wouldnt be putting a breed that needs slow sustained growth like a bordeaux on a prey model diet. An adult is one thing a growing pup is another. I would stick to what your breeder recommends otherwise you could be seeing problems like pano or accelerated growth. Our modern dogs are not wolves, many breeds have a different growth pattern that doesnt always benefit.

[Staranais]

I too would be careful. At the very least, I'd clear it with my breeder first, and only proceed if they give you the go ahead. They might even have a diet plan for you to follow that they have used successfully. And if the breeder isn't very happy with prey model, you can still do a good quality commercial & give some meat or RMB every day for teeth cleaning purposes, and move to the full raw diet when your dog is mature.

Raw diets can be great, and generally I'm all for them. But it's easy to mistakenly feed too much Ca or too much protein with a homemade diet, and both these mistakes are particularly likely to cause serious issues in growing giant breed dogs. Just be careful.

[perfect partners]

I wouldnt be putting a breed that needs slow sustained growth like a bordeaux on a prey model diet. An adult is one thing a growing pup is another. I would stick to what your breeder recommends otherwise you could be seeing problems like pano or accelerated growth. Our modern dogs are not wolves, many breeds have a different growth pattern that doesnt always benefit.

There are breeders of Newfoundlands (and I'm sure other large and giant breeds) that are feeding their dogs and pups on raw food - there are details on the websites of Bearscamp Newfoundlands and Moonribbon Newfoundlands. There is also a Newfoundland breeder, Kymythy Schultz who has written a book called 'Natural Nutrition for Dogs and Cats - The Ultimate Diet'.

[Nekhbet]

I didnt say raw foods were bad I said prey model diet - based simply on meats, bones and organs. If you read the websites of the newf breeders they feed BARF which has veges in there too. The Omas Pride frozen BARF diet is 20% vegetables and 70-80% ground meat/bone as well as other natural vitaminous additives.

If breeders want to do it, that is fine they have the knowledge of their breed. But the average dog owner can get it very wrong quickly and in a giant breed if you are not confident as to the 1) proper rations for your breed and 2) the actual percentages of the constituents of your ingredients you could be getting it wrong to the detriment of the dog. I would never whoel heartedly recommend to anyone to feed a giant breed or even some large breeds on solely raw diets in the growing phase unless you are happy to take the responsibility and are under the guidence of a suitably quilified expert of giant breeds and raw diets. I would rather see a pup be on a natural, premium kibble with some raw added throughout the growing phase.

[sandgrubber]

Confused. If it's prey model shouldn't the diet include fur and feathers as well as meat and bone. I'm about to begin a major gopher trapping exercise (I'm in California now and there are zillions of gophers everywhere). Can't figure out whether it's ok to feed the gophers to the dogs. (A gopher is larger than a mouse but smaller than an adult rat).

[Nekhbet]

that was the original idea sandgrubber. Prey was a US idea from people who had access to fresh roadkill or hunted animals on a regular basis. It recommended leave the animal whole which in essence, decreased the total digestible pure protein in comparison to what some people call 'prey' with butcher bought meats and organs. Fur, feathers etc also increase the fibre content of the gut helping things pass through quite quickly too I can attest to that

my lot are getting deer legs for dinner, hoof, hair, bone and all. They got the rib cage yesterday trimmed of most of the meat. I threw a bit of skin for them to play with and eat, rottie devoured half a doe ribcage as well as about a square foot of skin and hair. Thats a prey diet right there.

[Aso]

We are definitely doing as much research as we possibly can and will be consulting with others who have fed their giant babies a raw diet. We understand that this is not a conventional way of feeding our canine family members but we will do what is best for our baby, and not what is popular.

We are looking very closely at Tom Lonsdale's recommendation of the RMB which makes a lot of sense to us in comparison to any kibble type food available in the market. He recommends a natural diet of raw meaty bones for puppies, including fish, offal, "table scraps" ... which would mainly be suitable vegies & fruits blended for easier digestion. We have informed our breeder of our choice to feed raw and they are ok with it, they know we will never jeopardise our boy's health and they will always be informed of his progress.

We are getting unbelievably helpful information through this forum alone which we are very thankful for! It's great to see that raw feeding is getting very popular with amazing results.

[Ravyk]

I have made the decision, after some detailed research that I'm going to start feeding a prey model diet to my boy. I already basically have him on one ( feeding beef mince, chicken mince, lamb shanks, necks, chicken carcuses and turkey necks, along with liver, kidney and heart. I was just wondering if I need to be sourcing things like whole rabbits and other animals for him.

What do other raw feeders give their dogs?

Your best bet is to either check out the central markets-I know you can buy meats from a butcher there that most places don't sell. Not sure about rabbits though, but I know they stock wild goat [which is extremely delicious to eat!] at $6-$10 a kilo [human grade meat]. Or befriend a farmer who shoots rabbits on his property.

I have a few frozen whole rabbits here if you want them to try your dog/s on. My dogs dont like them and they are taking space up in my freezer.

Im northern suburbs.

Roses, if Rileys mum doesn't take the rabbits, would I please be able to grab one or two for my dogs to try?