Arousal

[corvus]

Do you follow the drive theory arousal relationship in which drive creates arousal and the more arousal the better the performance? Or are you maybe more of an "inverted U curve" person, in which low and high arousal decrease performance, but moderate arousal increases it? Or do you have some other arousal theory you follow? How do you view arousal in training?

[Zug Zug]

I think for most dogs the middle zone works best.

I find with my own performance dog (12yo poodle x) that when she gets very excited she tends to forge and miss signals etc. but when she is moderately aroused/excited she is very quick and precise in her movements.

My lovely old bichon is very low on arousal much of the time and it can be hard to get much out of him performance-wise - but when he fires up he's still got it and he can be quite precise he just needs a bit of building up.

Had a good discussion about this with some newbies in my pet class a few weeks back, and we talked about using their voices and movements to raise or lower their dogs' arousal levels and bring them into that middle 'working' zone. It has made a huge difference to their handling and their dogs' focus, so that has been really good to see.

Most of these dogs are highly aroused, active older puppies between say 10 and 15 months. So in most cases we were talking about bringing them down a peg or two so they could concentrate. Would be interesting to try it with a class of slower dogs, and see if they got similar results.

[corvus]

Yay, someone answered! :D

I'm an inverted U-curve girl. But I wonder about Kivi, my low drive boy. Obviously with Erik if he gets too aroused everything goes out the window and he is very difficult to manage. I would almost say with Kivi that I couldn't get him too aroused. He does get too aroused from time to time, but nothing I can do can get his eyes to glaze over like that. With Erik, I am often trying to bring him down a bit. I've never had to bring Kivi down in training. I'm always trying to perk him up some more.

[Jigsaw]

Been doing some light reading on a rainy day have you Corvus?

If my dog is highly aroused I can get some really great work out of her, speedy drops, great attention, good heeling but it's no good trying to teach anything in this state and at the moment we can only work in short duration and with little distraction. When trying to teach her something new I prefer lower arousal as she is able to take in information more easily in this state.

[Black Bronson]

Do you follow the drive theory arousal relationship in which drive creates arousal and the more arousal the better the performance? Or are you maybe more of an "inverted U curve" person, in which low and high arousal decrease performance, but moderate arousal increases it? Or do you have some other arousal theory you follow? How do you view arousal in training?

Corvus............you are on the dog forum

Edited May 31, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Cosmolo]

In teaching phase- low level arousal. Training phase- medium and when i am proofing- high levels of arousal please.

[Vickie]

We were just talking about this on the weekend at a trial.

My girls are in their highest level of arousal right before they enter the ring. They look like they will be out of control, but somehow they focus once we start & use the drive to run. There are lots of dogs in agility who will be out of control if they are too aroused & lots at the other end of the scale who will hardly manage a trot unless they are worked up before the run.

Although I can never manage quite the same level as we get at a trial, I try to train for agility with as much arousal as possible. Even in the teaching stages I want them over the top. I simply reward what I want & ignore what I don't. I have had a few students who tell me when they come that they can't train with a ball or the dog cannot think. I always like to work through this with them & have done so with success & changed a few minds along the way.

I guess it depends what you are training. I can see that some behaviours would be difficult to get when the dogs are over the top. When I watch Pax train her dogs for obedience, they are in full drive & it seems to work brilliantly for her with some very flashy end results.

So I guess I am the odd one out. I want as much as I can get, all the time.

[Cosmolo]

Actually thats a good point Vickie. I agree with you that it depends what you're training. I am the same for agility- i was just thinking obedience before. Cosmo did her best agility runs when she was a total nut before it! And i have people as well who won't train with toys because the dog goes 'too silly' but their idea of too silly is very different to mine!!

[Vickie]

And i have people as well who won't train with toys because the dog goes 'too silly' but their idea of too silly is very different to mine!!

From my perspective, the sillier they are for a toy, the more they want it, and the more they want it, the more likely they are to work out what it takes to earn it .

I'm sure there are exceptions, like the collie rough we have here...I admit that I haven't put the time into her but she has as much toy drive as any dog I have ever seen, she is just not as quick on the uptake about earning it. I'm thinking about taking her to the "so your dog's not Lassie" seminar

[Cosmolo]

Agree. And lol at the Collie!

[corvus]

My girls are in their highest level of arousal right before they enter the ring. They look like they will be out of control, but somehow they focus once we start & use the drive to run.

Most likely because I've been stumbling along with my first high drive dog and making mistakes along the way, but I found with Erik that to begin with he wasn't capable of nearly the control in high arousal that he's capable of now. He had some self-control issues, and I was trying to teach him self-control in pace with his climbing arousal. Sometimes in the beginning I misjudged it and ended up with bruises on my leg. That was good for teaching me to pay closer attention to his behaviour. Nowadays I sometimes think he's going to explode if he stays at that level of arousal for long, and if I left him to it himself he would, but if I give him something to do he's fine. He can and does learn in that state, but only because he's learnt to keep thinking through the arousal. I can clicker train him when he's like that, but for some things he seems to need to slow down and think more carefully. I find that when he's really aroused he will throw himself into things with more physicality than usual, so if I'm trying to get him to do less active things he'll be throwing in rolls and spins just to try to use up some of that mobilised energy, I guess.

[Vickie]

Most likely because I've been stumbling along with my first high drive dog and making mistakes along the way, but I found with Erik that to begin with he wasn't capable of nearly the control in high arousal that he's capable of now. He had some self-control issues, and I was trying to teach him self-control in pace with his climbing arousal. Sometimes in the beginning I misjudged it and ended up with bruises on my leg. That was good for teaching me to pay closer attention to his behaviour. Nowadays I sometimes think he's going to explode if he stays at that level of arousal for long, and if I left him to it himself he would, but if I give him something to do he's fine. He can and does learn in that state, but only because he's learnt to keep thinking through the arousal. I can clicker train him when he's like that, but for some things he seems to need to slow down and think more carefully. I find that when he's really aroused he will throw himself into things with more physicality than usual, so if I'm trying to get him to do less active things he'll be throwing in rolls and spins just to try to use up some of that mobilised energy, I guess.

I'm a bit confused reading this. Are you putting him into drive? Can you take him back out?

I would only ever want my dogs in this state so that we can use it. We don't really have an issue of them "exploding if they stay there for too long" as we are using it to train & practise behaviours. Once training/practise stops, it is over. They are NEVER allowed to use their teeth on me.

I am not saying this is the case with you, but I do see people getting their dogs aroused for training and asking for too much before rewarding. What is acually happening is that there is a whole range of behaviours going on, not all of which I would want to reward. A number of these dogs are a little out of control, I think partly becasue they are calling some of the shots. I want my dogs excited to the point they are trembling with anticipation, there is a routine to tell them they need to focus, they are not asked for a behaviour until I see them focussed, once the behaviour is done, they are rewarded. The reward seems to work as kind of a release for them & helps to bring them back down. And we start again. Does that make sense?

[corvus]

I'm a bit confused reading this. Are you putting him into drive? Can you take him back out?

What happened earlier was that he was going into drive, getting over-aroused and when I wanted to leave the game he'd lose it and nip me. It happened about 2 or 3 times. That's not his fault. That was my crappy handling. I don't think that's happened in the last 6 months, and he's 11 months now. My point was, now I can pretty much go out and get him as revved as I like and then teach him something new with a clicker (provided it's something active and exciting) or through some other means and he'll be fine. If I say that's that I'm not gonna get chomped even if he's at the same level of arousal (or higher) that months ago would have seen him come unravelled. He's got a lot more focus and self-control, now, and I don't think that's only because he's older. On the other hand, Erik gets aroused by a lot of things and obviously I would rather he wasn't tearing out of the house barking every 5 minutes because he's so wired he has to do something. Teaching him to calm down around environmental stimuli has been a good deal harder than teaching him self-control in tug games. Back in March he was doing pre-agility and he was so excited about the environment (which was new to him) and all the dogs running around that he did get pretty insane. It was train with him manically so he could do something with all that energy or watch his frustration go through the roof and have him barking hysterically. I was amazed but relieved that I could at least keep his attention as long as I was willing to run him through his tricks and teach him new stuff. That ain't a permanent management solution, but I'm okay doing it and gradually gravitating to doing quiet, low energy activities between running. If I'd thought I was going to do agility with him I would have done more work preparing him for that environment. But he is improving. He was sitting quietly on his bed while the guys mowed the lawns last week, and I've got him doing an itsy bit of lying on his mat when I'm training Kivi. Baby steps.

I am not saying this is the case with you, but I do see people getting their dogs aroused for training and asking for too much before rewarding. What is acually happening is that there is a whole range of behaviours going on, not all of which I would want to reward. A number of these dogs are a little out of control, I think partly becasue they are calling some of the shots. I want my dogs excited to the point they are trembling with anticipation, there is a routine to tell them they need to focus, they are not asked for a behaviour until I see them focussed, once the behaviour is done, they are rewarded. The reward seems to work as kind of a release for them & helps to bring them back down. And we start again. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes sense, thanks. I think I do sometimes ask for too much before rewarding. That's another time that arousal comes into play in training. If I don't reward enough at high arousal, I get frustration expressed with high energy activities, like barking and jumping. If I don't reward enough at lower arousal I seem to get lower arousal and confusion. Don't know if Erik is calling shots in your opinion. I bet he thinks he is, but he is under pretty strict NILIF purely in the interests of not spending most of my time unteaching him things he's taught himself in trying to get what he wants. It's easier to keep up with him if I can give him a framework to guide his decisions.

[Kavik]

I'm a bit confused reading this. Are you putting him into drive? Can you take him back out?

What happened earlier was that he was going into drive, getting over-aroused and when I wanted to leave the game he'd lose it and nip me. It happened about 2 or 3 times. That's not his fault. That was my crappy handling. I don't think that's happened in the last 6 months, and he's 11 months now. My point was, now I can pretty much go out and get him as revved as I like and then teach him something new with a clicker (provided it's something active and exciting) or through some other means and he'll be fine. If I say that's that I'm not gonna get chomped even if he's at the same level of arousal (or higher) that months ago would have seen him come unravelled. He's got a lot more focus and self-control, now, and I don't think that's only because he's older. On the other hand, Erik gets aroused by a lot of things and obviously I would rather he wasn't tearing out of the house barking every 5 minutes because he's so wired he has to do something. Teaching him to calm down around environmental stimuli has been a good deal harder than teaching him self-control in tug games. Back in March he was doing pre-agility and he was so excited about the environment (which was new to him) and all the dogs running around that he did get pretty insane. It was train with him manically so he could do something with all that energy or watch his frustration go through the roof and have him barking hysterically. I was amazed but relieved that I could at least keep his attention as long as I was willing to run him through his tricks and teach him new stuff. That ain't a permanent management solution, but I'm okay doing it and gradually gravitating to doing quiet, low energy activities between running. If I'd thought I was going to do agility with him I would have done more work preparing him for that environment. But he is improving. He was sitting quietly on his bed while the guys mowed the lawns last week, and I've got him doing an itsy bit of lying on his mat when I'm training Kivi. Baby steps.

I am not saying this is the case with you, but I do see people getting their dogs aroused for training and asking for too much before rewarding. What is acually happening is that there is a whole range of behaviours going on, not all of which I would want to reward. A number of these dogs are a little out of control, I think partly becasue they are calling some of the shots. I want my dogs excited to the point they are trembling with anticipation, there is a routine to tell them they need to focus, they are not asked for a behaviour until I see them focussed, once the behaviour is done, they are rewarded. The reward seems to work as kind of a release for them & helps to bring them back down. And we start again. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes sense, thanks. I think I do sometimes ask for too much before rewarding. That's another time that arousal comes into play in training. If I don't reward enough at high arousal, I get frustration expressed with high energy activities, like barking and jumping. If I don't reward enough at lower arousal I seem to get lower arousal and confusion. Don't know if Erik is calling shots in your opinion. I bet he thinks he is, but he is under pretty strict NILIF purely in the interests of not spending most of my time unteaching him things he's taught himself in trying to get what he wants. It's easier to keep up with him if I can give him a framework to guide his decisions.

I'd like to meet Eric, he sounds like a hoot

Kaos has plenty of drive but I don't get reactions like nipping when training!

About staying calm in highly stimulating environments like agility - I have found that having a place that is their own quiet space does help immensely. I use a crate, but you can use a mat if you want. They know to calm down in there. When I bring Kaos out to work he knows it is work time and is ready to go and focussed, but he relaxes in his crate when we have to wait for the little dogs to have their turn. I wish I had utilised them more when training my other dogs!

When out and waiting for his turn, sometimes Kaos will get a bit pushy and barky - but this doesn't worry me, and like you we do some little tricks to warm up and keep him busy until our turn.

[corvus]

Yeah, Erik's a handful, but he's SO much fun. He made me realise why people like working breeds. I wasn't entirely prepared for a lot of the mischief he gets up to, but I'm glad I went for "the tiger" as he was described to me by his breeder rather than the mellow guy. I get a real kick out of the way he just throws himself into things. Of course, it's not so fun when he's throwing himself into ripping up the carpet or opening the kitchen cupboards to get things out to chew on. Can't be lazy, that's for sure.

Thanks for the tip about quiet places. I've been teaching Erik to stay on his mat in lieu of crates because the mat is less annoying to lug from room to room. Sounds like I should really step that up and start incorporating it in more things.

[Vickie]

About staying calm in highly stimulating environments like agility - I have found that having a place that is their own quiet space does help immensely. I use a crate, but you can use a mat if you want. They know to calm down in there.

I don't think they/(mine anyway) actually "know" to be calm in their crates. Mine need to be crated too out of sight of the rings. I think it's more a case of not seeing or hearing what is going on than actually being trained to be calm there. I think they are calm b/c there is no expectation that they are about to perform. I have never taught them to be calm at home, they just are because I am not initiating anything with them.

They can be calm on lead a certain distance away if there is no expectation that they will be entering the ring...but walking them (especially Trim) past the ring is near impossible without them trying to drag me into it. People always think they are stimulated solely by the other dogs running, but I think they are actually stimulated more by the commands the other handler is giving in the ring. Trim once finished a course with me, jumped 2 ring ropes and had done about 4 obstacles by the time the person in the other ring realised she was running my dog & not her own .

Edited June 2, 2010 by Vickie

[Vickie]

Yeah, that makes sense, thanks. I think I do sometimes ask for too much before rewarding. That's another time that arousal comes into play in training. If I don't reward enough at high arousal, I get frustration expressed with high energy activities, like barking and jumping. If I don't reward enough at lower arousal I seem to get lower arousal and confusion. Don't know if Erik is calling shots in your opinion. I bet he thinks he is, but he is under pretty strict NILIF purely in the interests of not spending most of my time unteaching him things he's taught himself in trying to get what he wants. It's easier to keep up with him if I can give him a framework to guide his decisions.

It sounds like you could be rewarding more things than you are intending to. That is the danger of not rewarding enough...often people are rewarding not just what they are asking but also rewarding/or allowing some other self rewarding behaviours at the same time.

[Kavik]

About staying calm in highly stimulating environments like agility - I have found that having a place that is their own quiet space does help immensely. I use a crate, but you can use a mat if you want. They know to calm down in there.

I don't think they/(mine anyway) actually "know" to be calm in their crates. Mine need to be crated too out of sight of the rings. I think it's more a case of not seeing or hearing what is going on than actually being trained to be calm there. I think they are calm b/c there is no expectation that they are about to perform. I have never taught them to be calm at home, they just are because I am not initiating anything with them.

They can be calm on lead a certain distance away if there is no expectation that they will be entering the ring...but walking them (especially Trim) past the ring is near impossible without them trying to drag me into it. People always think they are stimulated solely by the other dogs running, but I think they are actually stimulated more by the commands the other handler is giving in the ring. Trim once finished a course with me, jumped 2 ring ropes and had done about 4 obstacles by the time the person in the other ring realised she was running my dog & not her own .

Kaos is pretty good in his crate May be different when I have another dog and am running two though, I'm sure that creates its own set of training issues to deal with! At home when I am training them, the others are behind a fence and do bark when I work one, so I would have to work on that for sure!

Trim is hillarious