Chronic Puller! Help!

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

lanabanana

I watched a whole bunch of dogs today that I know have titles in obedience competition on and off lead, and they were all happily pulling away on lead from A to B. So training may mean nothing, context is everything. Ie these dogs know not to pull in the competition arena when they are getting a certain set up, and signals from the boss, but in the absence of this, and with a permissive boss - they do their own thing, which is lunge in whichever direction they want to go.

So my dog is very good at loose lead walking in a flat collar but only so long as I'm paying attention and keeping the treats on tap. But after getting her a harness - she actually got better in the flat collar as well. It wears off after a while and I put the harness back on to remind her.

As far as the uber excitement goes, you just need to have the patience to wait it out and then get the dog to do what you want. Eg when I arrive at park or beach, my dog is usually very excited, but she knows she's not getting a run or meet and greet until she does what I tell her, eg usually a come here and a sit. She's actually started backing up to me and sitting in the "correct position" to encourage me to let her off the lead. That's called "offering a behaviour" in hopes of getting a reward (eg release or treat).

I hope you find a front attach (clip) harness that works for you, or some system that gives you power and control and the patience to use your dog's excitement and desire to your advantage.

So - before dog gets on lead - he must show some self control, like a nice sit. Before you open the front door (or side gate) to go out, nice calm sit. Before he gets off lead - same. And practice heaps of recall on lead ie if he gets close to the end of the lead, tell him to "come" and reel him in if necessary and treat on arrival - repeat lots.

There's some great stuff on the Ian Dunbar site DogstarDaily or search youtube for Ian Dunbar.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/training/155

[Cosmolo]

Secret kei- I can't say what i would use on a dog likely to redirect as this has been my whole point- it depends on the dog, on the handler and the situation and each part needs to be assessed before making a decision. And again- thats what i meant with regards to the tool vs technique, management etc. If someone uses a headcollar uses a technique that only manages the behaviour- thats not the fault of the tool, just as with a check, prong etc.

[corvus]

Now, I can't remember the posters name but they have a dog called Erik, you said about arousal etc etc. Yea, I totally think it is that, he is just so excited to be out there (you can get him home and go out again 5 minutes later and he will still be just as excited about it) which means he wants to go go go. How will a clicker help in this situation and do I get him used to it for other stuff first? (I have read a bit about clickers but I am cincerned it may be hard to use and control dog at same time???

That was me.

Erik already had a long history with the clicker when I started using it in this fashion, although it didn't take long at all to get him keen on it at the start. This particular use of it came out of the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. That is a great book for owners of dogs that easily get aroused or distracted. When I started using it Erik was back when he was in this nutty phase where he would react to lots of things and had a ridiculously short attention span and complete inability to focus. He's also a small dog, only around 10kg, so it's not like he can pull me over or anything. I found that it generally worked quite reliably. It only took about 2 or 3 repetitions to get him looking over for a click in the presence of another dog without any prompting, and once I'd got that far I could start asking for heels and releasing after two steps so he could look at the dog again, then back, click, heel for three steps, click, release and so on. He's a very quick learner, though, and he'd also had a little self-control training that may or may not have helped. The trick is to keep them under threshold, which means they have to be able to notice the clicker and respond to it. Not sure where your boy is on that front. I found that even with Erik at his absolute worst it was rare for him to be so gone that he didn't hear a click. And I use a pretty quiet one. But Erik is a very aware dog and can be surprisingly switched on to his surroundings at very high levels of arousal. My other dog is harder despite being much more laid back. He has his

Aidan knows a lot more about using clickers to teach loose leash walking than I do. I've only used it to deal with distractions when the dogs are on leash. Aidan, aren't you based in Hobart yourself? If he already knows heel, though, it sounds like you've got something good to work with. Having foundation behaviours like that made it a lot easier with my dogs. It's much easier to strengthen a known behaviour than teach one from scratch IME. I think my next dog will be taught LLW with a clicker. Aidan teaches the dog that tension on the leash is a cue to return to the handler for a treat.

I don't find it hard to handle a dog on leash, treats, and a clicker all at once. The treats live in the treat pouce, the leash is in one hand, and the clicker around my wrist. I have one with a nice raised button, which makes it easy to click it even if I'm holding something else in the same hand as the clicker.

[lanabanana]

lanabanana

I watched a whole bunch of dogs today that I know have titles in obedience competition on and off lead, and they were all happily pulling away on lead from A to B. So training may mean nothing, context is everything. Ie these dogs know not to pull in the competition arena when they are getting a certain set up, and signals from the boss, but in the absence of this, and with a permissive boss - they do their own thing, which is lunge in whichever direction they want to go.

So my dog is very good at loose lead walking in a flat collar but only so long as I'm paying attention and keeping the treats on tap. But after getting her a harness - she actually got better in the flat collar as well. It wears off after a while and I put the harness back on to remind her.

As far as the uber excitement goes, you just need to have the patience to wait it out and then get the dog to do what you want. Eg when I arrive at park or beach, my dog is usually very excited, but she knows she's not getting a run or meet and greet until she does what I tell her, eg usually a come here and a sit. She's actually started backing up to me and sitting in the "correct position" to encourage me to let her off the lead. That's called "offering a behaviour" in hopes of getting a reward (eg release or treat).

I hope you find a front attach (clip) harness that works for you, or some system that gives you power and control and the patience to use your dog's excitement and desire to your advantage.

So - before dog gets on lead - he must show some self control, like a nice sit. Before you open the front door (or side gate) to go out, nice calm sit. Before he gets off lead - same. And practice heaps of recall on lead ie if he gets close to the end of the lead, tell him to "come" and reel him in if necessary and treat on arrival - repeat lots.

There's some great stuff on the Ian Dunbar site DogstarDaily or search youtube for Ian Dunbar.

http://www.dogstardaily.com/videos/training/155

Great - thank you.

Yes, leash is often got out and set on the table and not touched until he has calmed down. Then it will be attached to his collar and if he gets all excited, I will often go and make myself comfy on the couch until he settles.

He deifnitely has some foundational training there.

I think we will definitely be trying a front attach harness initially as by reading this thread I am guessing that this will be the easiest way for me to "control" the pulling as he won't really be able to do it. Hopefully, because he won't be able to pull we should be able to practise some good behaviours.

I do have to admit though, we he is being a pain in the butt, I can go from being nice and relaxed to blood boiling in the space of about 3 seconds LOL. My OH for this matter will nto go on family walks with both dogs and our daughter as his stress levels rise the minute the dog gets to the end of the driveway LOL.

Ideally I am hoping once I have got my boy walking nicely on lead, we can hopefully work on other behaviours like his reaction to other dogs when he sees them. He does have some handy commands whch will be useful for this. I.e. he knows "look", which means obviously to look at me so I am hoping I can teach him to look when another dog appears - I don't have it all figured out yet. But that's also why I am going to go right back to basics, he is pretty good with commands but not what I woud call th emost reliable.

And I know what you mean by "offering a behaviour" as he will offer things if he thinks that may get him what he wants - usually food.

Another query I have is, can yiou use an action they like to do to reward? For example, he loves giving high fives. He was a very "pawy" pup and would constantly be pawing you in the face or chest so my partner directed that natural behaviour into giving high fives and now the only time he paws is when asked for a "fives" and he paws your hand. He loves it, if asked for a fives he gets really happy and pleased with himself so is it possible to use this as a reward for good behaviour?

Questions may be silly...I am still trying to work out how to fit everything all together to work with him.'

I think he has awesome potential and so did the dog trainer/behaviour guy at the SPCA we got him from when he saw him last at 18 months but as I am clearly not working with him the right way he is not realising this...my fault.

[lanabanana]

Now, I can't remember the posters name but they have a dog called Erik, you said about arousal etc etc. Yea, I totally think it is that, he is just so excited to be out there (you can get him home and go out again 5 minutes later and he will still be just as excited about it) which means he wants to go go go. How will a clicker help in this situation and do I get him used to it for other stuff first? (I have read a bit about clickers but I am cincerned it may be hard to use and control dog at same time???

That was me.

Erik already had a long history with the clicker when I started using it in this fashion, although it didn't take long at all to get him keen on it at the start. This particular use of it came out of the book Control Unleashed by Leslie McDevitt. That is a great book for owners of dogs that easily get aroused or distracted. When I started using it Erik was back when he was in this nutty phase where he would react to lots of things and had a ridiculously short attention span and complete inability to focus. He's also a small dog, only around 10kg, so it's not like he can pull me over or anything. I found that it generally worked quite reliably. It only took about 2 or 3 repetitions to get him looking over for a click in the presence of another dog without any prompting, and once I'd got that far I could start asking for heels and releasing after two steps so he could look at the dog again, then back, click, heel for three steps, click, release and so on. He's a very quick learner, though, and he'd also had a little self-control training that may or may not have helped. The trick is to keep them under threshold, which means they have to be able to notice the clicker and respond to it. Not sure where your boy is on that front. I found that even with Erik at his absolute worst it was rare for him to be so gone that he didn't hear a click. And I use a pretty quiet one. But Erik is a very aware dog and can be surprisingly switched on to his surroundings at very high levels of arousal. My other dog is harder despite being much more laid back. He has his

Aidan knows a lot more about using clickers to teach loose leash walking than I do. I've only used it to deal with distractions when the dogs are on leash. Aidan, aren't you based in Hobart yourself? If he already knows heel, though, it sounds like you've got something good to work with. Having foundation behaviours like that made it a lot easier with my dogs. It's much easier to strengthen a known behaviour than teach one from scratch IME. I think my next dog will be taught LLW with a clicker. Aidan teaches the dog that tension on the leash is a cue to return to the handler for a treat.

I don't find it hard to handle a dog on leash, treats, and a clicker all at once. The treats live in the treat pouce, the leash is in one hand, and the clicker around my wrist. I have one with a nice raised button, which makes it easy to click it even if I'm holding something else in the same hand as the clicker.

Ok thanks. I think I will read up and see how that fits in.

I am going to start from basics regarding all obediance for reinforcement of expectations so it might be an idea to introduce a clicker with that do youthink?

Click and treat is that right? And then eventually the clicker is the reward - is that how it works??

[corvus]

Yeah, clicker training is great! I just keep finding useful applications of it. The click is always followed by a treat, but you can fade the click/treat out. My other dog, Kivi, likes to offer informal heels. It's been so heavily reinforced that he thinks it's a good place to start if you want a treat. So every few minutes when we're out whether he's off leash or on, he'll sidle over and glue himself to someone's leg and gaze up at them drooling. It's very cute.

[Aidan3]

Click and treat is that right? And then eventually the clicker is the reward - is that how it works??

Clicker is just a reward marker, always follow a click with a reward. You can click and treat less often when he gets really good at things but never stop following up the click with a reward.

In answer to your earlier question, high-5 can be used as a reward but what you are looking for is an increase in the behaviour you rewarded. Then you will know if he sees it as a rewarding consequence or not. Well all end up using food quite a lot.

Your dog is a good candidate for a front attaching harness. It will immediately end the stress while you deal with the real problem. If you also invest in a double ended leash it will be easy to transition from harness to flat collar.

[Red Fox]

Secret kei- I can't say what i would use on a dog likely to redirect as this has been my whole point- it depends on the dog, on the handler and the situation and each part needs to be assessed before making a decision. And again- thats what i meant with regards to the tool vs technique, management etc. If someone uses a headcollar uses a technique that only manages the behaviour- thats not the fault of the tool, just as with a check, prong etc.

Agreed and agreed

Lanabanana- There's been some great info in this thread and lots of differing opinions, but tempting as it is don't go off and try them all. Find a good trainer (perhaps a couple of private lessons), find a tool and method that works for your dog and stick to it. As with anything consistancy is the key

If you plan to try the clicker you are going to need to build up a strong foundation with it first which is fairly simple but may take some time. Another thing to keep in mind is that a large excited dog, a clicker and a pouch full of treats is not the easiest of things to juggle. One thing you could consider is to use a marker word as opposed to a clicker. There are downfalls (you have to be careful to use the same word and the same tone of voice where-as a clicker is a consistant and distinct sound) but if you can manage then it's one less thing to juggle and may help with your timing. Just a thought.

[lanabanana]

Click and treat is that right? And then eventually the clicker is the reward - is that how it works??

Clicker is just a reward marker, always follow a click with a reward. You can click and treat less often when he gets really good at things but never stop following up the click with a reward.

In answer to your earlier question, high-5 can be used as a reward but what you are looking for is an increase in the behaviour you rewarded. Then you will know if he sees it as a rewarding consequence or not. Well all end up using food quite a lot.

Your dog is a good candidate for a front attaching harness. It will immediately end the stress while you deal with the real problem. If you also invest in a double ended leash it will be easy to transition from harness to flat collar.

Thanks - yea we are deifnitely going to go for the front attach harness. What do you mean by double ended lead - one lead attached to harness and collar?

LOL here I wa sjust goign to use two leads, one attached to each what a thicko!

[lanabanana]

Secret kei- I can't say what i would use on a dog likely to redirect as this has been my whole point- it depends on the dog, on the handler and the situation and each part needs to be assessed before making a decision. And again- thats what i meant with regards to the tool vs technique, management etc. If someone uses a headcollar uses a technique that only manages the behaviour- thats not the fault of the tool, just as with a check, prong etc.

Agreed and agreed

Lanabanana- There's been some great info in this thread and lots of differing opinions, but tempting as it is don't go off and try them all. Find a good trainer (perhaps a couple of private lessons), find a tool and method that works for your dog and stick to it. As with anything consistancy is the key

If you plan to try the clicker you are going to need to build up a strong foundation with it first which is fairly simple but may take some time. Another thing to keep in mind is that a large excited dog, a clicker and a pouch full of treats is not the easiest of things to juggle. One thing you could consider is to use a marker word as opposed to a clicker. There are downfalls (you have to be careful to use the same word and the same tone of voice where-as a clicker is a consistant and distinct sound) but if you can manage then it's one less thing to juggle and may help with your timing. Just a thought.

Thanks - great advice.

At the current time, we will be goign with the harness so he can get his walks without it being too stressful for us both while we work on things togethern (for the walks). As well as starting training from basics everyday to reinforce the actions we expect on which command.

However, I will deifnitely look into clickers as the noise may be something helpful...he is a very auditory (is that the right word) dog and reacts to sound and tone etc and this may be something we can introduce into our back to basics training.

I probably won't get a trainer in just yet as Id like to work it out myself. But it is something we will definitely look at if I don't seem to be having any luck.

Now, I just need to purchase the harness.

[Prydenjoy]

Thanks - yea we are deifnitely going to go for the front attach harness. What do you mean by double ended lead - one lead attached to harness and collar?

LOL here I wa sjust goign to use two leads, one attached to each what a thicko!

Black Dog sell a double ended lead, it's just a lead with a clip on each end basically. You're not a thicko, I guess there's no reason why you couldn't do that and tie them together so you're not fumbling with so many leads

[lanabanana]

Thanks - yea we are deifnitely going to go for the front attach harness. What do you mean by double ended lead - one lead attached to harness and collar?

LOL here I wa sjust goign to use two leads, one attached to each what a thicko!

Black Dog sell a double ended lead, it's just a lead with a clip on each end basically. You're not a thicko, I guess there's no reason why you couldn't do that and tie them together so you're not fumbling with so many leads

Great thanks - do they also sell front attaching harnesses do you know?

In fact, for those who would recommend a front attach harness (I know there are some who don't and I feel a bit bad for maybe not deciding to go with their feedback), is there a particular brand that works better than others, particularly for big stong dogs?

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: I think that too much focus is being put on lack of obedience in the OP's case, there are other issues other than lack of training going on here to simply try and address with training the loose leash walk.

Lanabanana, I would not be trying to solve this problem by reading this or any other thread on here or reading a book either, I would be having a reputable behaviour specialist assess your dog and design a solution to the problem, including the leash pulling.

No tool will fix this for you.

For behaviour problems, you dont get endless chances at solving them, each failed attempt creates further resistance and a book will not diagnose what is actually happening with your dog.

You cannot train a loose leash walk to a dog and then go about correcting the behavioural problem that may be driving the leash pulling, it doesnt work like that.

You can "experiment" with clicker training, or read a book and give this a "try" yourself, or you can get some professional help and it will get better.

Maybe somebody here is capable of diagnosing your dog over the internet and recommending a course of action that may work, I try not to give people what I think may work though.

*******************************************

The other thing I have read is that when a tool is put up in this thread by someone, it seems that were trying to determine if the tool will cure all problems.

Will the Halter work on handler aggressive dogs? Well that depends what is driving the aggression but it could help or in another case it could see the dog turn on you.

Can you use one and gain success? Dont know, nor care, it wasnt designed for that and I wouldnt use one for that (I dont use them anyway).

But if the halter or front attaching harness doesn't work in those circumstances, thats ok? I dont think there is a tool that is a "one tool cures all".

If you have a dog that is handler aggressive, you use a muzzle to stop you being bit, not a halter or tools designed for other purposes.

Stabilisation collars have been around for a long time, recently renamed dominant dog collars. They are used to stabilise a dog that has gone into high rank drive, where verbal communication has no effect and a stimulating correction, like one from a check chain, prong collar, martingale etc will often redirect the aggression onto the handler.

The collar is tightened to restrict or block the air way of the dog momentarily so that the dog can reprioritise the situation and calm down. Do they work? yes they do, are they a desireable tool to recommend? No.

My collar manufacturers make them for us, we supply them to trainers for extreme cases.

I get sent many extreme cases that others will not work with from all over Australia and extreme cases call for extreme measures.

When you see Ceasar Millan walking down the street with that very tight leash on dogs, he is using a leash with stabilisation collar built in, the dog cant pull because if does it cant breathe.

I dont use these collars to teach a loose leash walk, I may use one to address rank drive that is manifesting into aggression.

*********************************

I read the study (briefly) on the dogs not being stressed when lowering their heads, pawing at their face etc, and if the dogs are not stressed, why would they display these behaviours I wonder.

Personally though, a dog being stressed when were trying to extinguish an undesirable behaviour isnt my highest priority, the stress is monitored and controlled though I am not trying to make sure this happens with zero stress, in fact I dont believe you can extinguish a learned behaviour with zero stress anyway.

I do work with a couple of Canine Chiro's who have treated neck strains and injuries, not from dogs pulling so much on halters but lunging into them, these two guys run a practice and there are three major reasons why they dont write endless reports: -

1. They dont have the time.

2. It wont stop the company selling them.

3. They fear legal action from the manufacturers.

I havent seen neck injuries occur but I have seen dogs bite their tongues, have their necks whipped around and their heads raked up by handlers when the dogs lunged. These three factors and some dogs very high aversion to wearing them have meant that I personally dont use or recommend them, but as I said, if a client turns up and their dog is wearing one and it is working for them, I dont try and re invent the wheel.

*****************************

A few people have emailed me after I mentioned the front attaching harness, I can go on record here to say that: -

I have not tested them on enough aggressive dogs to make a clear judgement on how helpful they are.

I have got a number of front attaching harnesses of a few brands out with my equipment testers and I get written feedback every week.

There are a couple that are showing reasonable success with no downsides (more on that below)

Some considerations to think about though: -

I have seen one dog that was highly aggressive try to get to another dog, the aggressive dog turned around and walked backwards, dragging the handler, the harness can not destabilse a dog that is not going forward...

In all the cases that the harness has worked to reduce leash pulling, the same results could have been gained with as little as a martingale collar and some handler skill (not a lot, just a little). But as we all know, not every handler posses skill (or can be taught or wants to learn) and in those cases the two harnesses that have stood out as the best (so far) have worked reasonably well. If the test results stay the same, I will be recommending one of them to handlers who fall into those categories.

Testing is done by us on items that have been improved or redesigned or are new on the market, I usually test it first and then if I think it may have merit, I have 12 volunteer equipment testers that have access to a variety of dogs and are dedicated to giving me unbiased feedback.

Ten of the twelve are either instructors, qualified trainers of dog handlers, the other two are foster carers.

We test the items free of charge and dont release brands that dont pass, but we may stock or use ones that do (this goes for anything dog really).

For Black Bronson, I feel that if someone promoted themselves as a trainer but could only teach a Loose Leash by using a halter or no pull harness, I would think they need some training. I think these tools would be a crutch for a trainer with a poor method.

I honestly do not believe for one moment that Aiden would need any of these tools to train a loose leash, nor Erny, Cosmolo or myself would, but we are faced often with people that really do want to correct certain problems and no amount of demonstration or help will get those results without these tools.

It is a shame, but it is true.

As for harnesses, you made a command on training bitework in harnesses, I have done a lot of this type of work and the harness used is an Agitation harness, designed to distribute the back tie pressure accross the dogs chest.

The front attaching harnesses that these guys are talking about attach the leash snap in the middle of the dogs chest and the pressure is applied to the dogs opposing shoulder, destabilising the dog and giving leverage back to the handler.

Practiced regularly enough, these can make walking without pulling habitual.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

Black dog do sell a front attach harness.

http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?page=...t&Itemid=5#

I think they're currently calling it a "balance harness". Just don't get the tracking harness (rear clip).

The most important thing with it (any front attach harness) is the right fit.

When I first started using the sensible harness - I clipped it to the flat collar. It makes sneaking out of it more difficult, but the dog can pull more in that configuration.

Note - my dog is not the least bit aggressive. But she does like to make friends with everybody. She doesn't like being on lead or going for walks on the footpaths at all. She actually hides or runs away when I'm getting ready to walk the dog. Still haven't figured out why. She's definitely scared of traffic but where I live, traffic is fairly easy to avoid. She used to bolt/pull forwards in any direction but doesn't do that any more (no gain for her). She used to do that from day one. Walk nicely on lead in back yard or at dog school and do the pull-crawl on the footpath, from the first step out the gate. I encouraged the grovelly greeting she's fond of but not the pulling.

[lanabanana]

Black dog do sell a front attach harness.

http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?page=...t&Itemid=5#

I think they're currently calling it a "balance harness". Just don't get the tracking harness (rear clip).

The most important thing with it (any front attach harness) is the right fit.

When I first started using the sensible harness - I clipped it to the flat collar. It makes sneaking out of it more difficult, but the dog can pull more in that configuration.

Note - my dog is not the least bit aggressive. But she does like to make friends with everybody. She doesn't like being on lead or going for walks on the footpaths at all. She actually hides or runs away when I'm getting ready to walk the dog. Still haven't figured out why. She's definitely scared of traffic but where I live, traffic is fairly easy to avoid. She used to bolt/pull forwards in any direction but doesn't do that any more (no gain for her). She used to do that from day one. Walk nicely on lead in back yard or at dog school and do the pull-crawl on the footpath, from the first step out the gate. I encouraged the grovelly greeting she's fond of but not the pulling.

I notice thos eharnesses also have a ring ont he back - what is that for?

K9Pro: Thanks for your advice...it has been noted.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

lanabanana

I'm not sure what the ring is for at the back, if you click on the link for info / buy - it has some more information. I get the impression - you clip onto both rings with the double ended lead and that helps - but you'd have to send them an email for more info. I don't use it so I can't help you with that.

And I'm a bit puzzled about Steve's (K9 pro) answer about no tool is going to help. Cos tools - that I don't have and aren't that thrilled about using - along with technique is what he recommended me. But again - I don't have an aggressive dog. I'm glad he's checking out the front attach harnesses because I get good results with that. Changing directions often - just gets me a dog that sits every time I stop or turn. She's getting better. I find it's all about what I let her get away with. If she's moving forward and pulling - then she's getting what she wants (sort of). No incentive not to do it. The front attach harness - gives incentive - because she has to stop pulling to move forward - and I don't have to be paying attention for the entire time - it's automatic.

[Steve K9Pro]

MRB: And I'm a bit puzzled about Steve's (K9 pro) answer about no tool is going to help. Cos tools - that I don't have and aren't that thrilled about using - along with technique is what he recommended me.

K9: There are two differences: -

1. I have seen your dog

2. I would be supplying a technique that may include the use of a tool, not just a tool.

MRB: I'm glad he's checking out the front attach harnesses because I get good results with that. Changing directions often - just gets me a dog that sits every time I stop or turn. She's getting better. I find it's all about what I let her get away with

K9: so do you get good results with the tool or the technique? Seems once you let the technique fall, the tool doesnt help?

Edited June 5, 2010 by K9Pro

[lanabanana]

Yea my dog is not what I would call agreessive....well maybe he does have some lead aggression - I am not really sure. He barks when he sees other dogs sounding all high pitched and excited and if it goes on too long he gets really wound up...but off lead, he loves other dogs - goes a bit stupid round them but loves them

He as had one fight in his life. He was on lead at the beach and started going nuts when this woman arrived with her 3 dogs (a rott, a saluki and what appeared to be a lab/GR mix - looked like a long haired black lab) who were al off lead and racing round our dog winding him up while she just stood there watching.

She said, let him off my dogs are fine. I replied that I wasnt sure how my dog would be because of his reaction at the moment and could she please take her off lead dogs away from my on lead ones

a bt more tooing and froing and she kept saying let him off. So in the end I thought stuff it, I will. Let him off and he had a sniff of the Sal and rott and was fine...then the mix and that was fine...but then the mix growled and bit him so he fought back. He was younger and bigger so immediately got the upper hand. She was right there so donked my dog on the head with some plastic thing. He immediately released and returned to me. She then went nuts.

Meantime, another couple came along with their rotti and went nuts at the old lady, apparently it was not exactly uncommon for this women to let her off lead dogs wind up all the on lead dogs and then blame the other dog when he dogs started a fight.

But yea, I dont knwo if he is truly aggro or just gets himself really excited and owund up as generally off lead he is fine.

[Mrs Rusty Bucket]

K9 Pro

I would say that I get good results with the front attach harness whether I'm using the technique (like changing directions, calling or warning the dog etc) or not. That's why I like it. The act of her pulling undoes her or corrects her of itself. I don't have to work at making her pay attention, the harness does this for me. I can work the technique if I want to but it isn't important like it would be if I was using a collar that "corrects".

I have met one dog whose owner tried a correctly fitted harness and it didn't work. That was a great dane - and the problem was related to the size of the dog, the height - ie upwards pressure on the harness gives ultimate control and it's a bit hard with a GD - and the shape of it's chest - being very deep - the harness wouldn't stay where it needed to be to work properly. That owner ended up using a prong collar with good technique, it was working for her. She had problems with the GD and fear aggression after it was attacked by an SWF. My grovel dog didn't provoke the fear reaction - being upside down for our greeting.

I think a prong collar would be over the top for my dog. She does tend to freak out at fairly gentle corrections.

[Aidan3]

lanabanana

I'm not sure what the ring is for at the back, if you click on the link for info / buy - it has some more information. I get the impression - you clip onto both rings with the double ended lead and that helps - but you'd have to send them an email for more info. I don't use it so I can't help you with that.

Apparently it is a Ttouch design, the back ring is for "brakes" and the front for "steering" - which is definitely not my recommendation, but maybe has some relevance in a broader context for Ttouch practitioners. Black Dog sell a kit which includes "balance leash" and "harmony harness". It is good value, they are both good products but I'm uncomfortable with the lightness of the plastic clips on the harness (which may be different now) so I would not use one without a double ended leash or safety connector to a flat collar. Other than that I have no complaints, but K9Pro has many more out there than I do and he may have uncovered faults that I am not yet aware of.

K9Pro is correct, if people come to me as a trainer, then I assess the dog, recommend equipment (if necessary) then show them how to use it. I am of the understanding that Gentle Leader do suggest their product as a management tool for aggressive dogs, and certainly there have been clinical trials that have used the GL in this way. Again, it depends on an assessment, this is not the sort of thing anyone could make a blanket recommendation on. No doubt Steve and I (and Cosmo and Erny) all work a little bit differently and would draw different conclusions about how we might utilise a tool based on our individual approaches to different problems.