Chronic Puller! Help!

[Aidan3]

but the contradiction to this, is that you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers who specialise in this field of training to agree with your concept.

There have been several reputable trainers who specialise in this field posting in this thread. Are you suggesting that Cosmolo, Erny and K9Pro aren't "reputable"? More personal attacks.

Aidan, I dont think that's what BB was trying to suggest at all. How many times has it been said, that the only thing two trainers will agree on is that the third is wrong?

"you won't find ANY reputable and experienced trainers...to agree with your concept" and yet the three I mentioned have all posted in this thread stating that they have used front attaching harnesses in similar situations. Perhaps he should be more careful with his choice of words? De ja vu...

[Red Fox]

Okay, so lets say that they are not stressed. What good is a dog who "appears to have shut down" and how much can you really teach him in that state?

Provided the owner doesn't pander to this (i.e worry about it, remove the head collar, let the dog go back to pulling on a flat collar) then it usually passes soon enough. Personally, of all the dogs I have ever introduced to a head collar, none of them have ever done this. Of dogs I have worked with where the owner has made the decision (on their own) to get a head collar and then turned up at class with it on without introducing it as I would have, the dogs work just fine and get over the loss of freedom to pull very quickly.

But this is extremely hard to do when you have an emotional attachment to the dog.

Yup, horses for courses. Some people see the dog having a minor hissy fit because they can't get their way any more, others see the dog as shut down. You can imagine what some people might think when their dog squeals the first time it lunges on a prong collar. We're all different, that's why I like to deal with data rather than opinions. I personally don't consider it reasonable to cut off a dog's air supply when I know that there are effective alternatives but I do not judge you personally for reagarding this as a reasonable option. If you get a chance Google "Milgram Experiment" and see how readily we can be conditioned to accept some things as normal where otherwise we would not (for e.g., would you let someone do this to your child, even if it meant your child would learn not to do something very harmful to himself or others?)

I might.. but to be completely honest with you I'm not a 'follower' of sorts. I form my own oppinions and need to have a great deal of respect (and trust) in someone for them to sway me.

Regardless, I think that when we are talking about cutting off a dogs air supply that we are not refering to your average pet. It's an extreme measure used for extreme cases, but still very viable in the right situation.

The front attaching harness gives you leverage. The dog cannot pull you towards whatever it wants to, and if he does become aggressive you can simply walk away. Distance puts them out of drive pretty quickly. I don't care if they want to have a hissy fit on the way. I have used them on some very large dogs with some very small handlers, and Cosmolo and K9Pro seem to have had similar results.

Okay, so lets say you do have an extremely agressive dog. What if that dog then turns his aggression on the handler? How would you use the harness to control that behaviour then?

Ask Steve if you want a second opinion. It is very difficult for a dog to pull forwards in a front attaching harness

lol, I might. He would be one of the very few people who could sway my beliefs. Anyhow, I'm not doubting you on this, it's common sense that a dog could not pull forwards on a front connecting harness. I'm just not sure how you would handle an agressive dog in a one, that's all.

[Red Fox]

Secret Kei- its not about snapping the dog out of anything in that situation- the dog is too far gone. A front connecting harness gives you the leverage to be able to walk away and take the dog with you- not 'snap the dog out of it'

Sorry, perhaps that was the wrong choice of words. You'd want to break the dogs attention before he actually reached that stage and walking away may achieve that...

But are you saying that if the dog does reach that stage, if the dog is that far gone, that you really have the leverage to simply walk away? Would the dog not be pulling all over the place by that stage? Lunging, carrying on etc? Would it really be that easy? And as I just asked Aidan, what would you do if the dog then turned his agression on the handler?

I'm not trying to argue, I'm simply curious.

Edited June 5, 2010 by SecretKei

[huski]

Disagree.....My Aussie would have shut down and never got beyond Novice had he been trained with the old methods. I know of several other breeds who would never have coped and are doing a great deal of winning. How about Huski? We also have a terrific little Beagle in WA who has lovely attitude, not to mention the Tollers, Kelpies and Poodles.

I am the same, Bedazzled, the old yank and crank methods would not give me the results with my dog that I get with the methods I use now.

Yeah but that's only cos you have a super beagle Huski

Hehe, who says you can't train a beagle in drive?

LOL probably the old school trainers from the 70s.... :rofl:

lol, I might. He would be one of the very few people who could sway my beliefs. Anyhow, I'm not doubting you on this, it's common sense that a dog could not pull forwards on a front connecting harness. I'm just not sure how you would handle an agressive dog in a one, that's all.

I'm not sure Steve was talking about using front connecting harnesses on aggressive dogs though? Hopefully he will come back and clarify for us!

[Red Fox]

I'm not sure Steve was talking about using front connecting harnesses on aggressive dogs though? Hopefully he will come back and clarify for us!

Yeah I dont think so either so hopefully he will come back and clarify. You know Steve spies on us though ....he's probably reading this thread right now!

[Aidan3]

I might.. but to be completely honest with you I'm not a 'follower' of sorts. I form my own oppinions and need to have a great deal of respect (and trust) in someone for them to sway me.

Worth looking up all the same. A very interesting study and if you are the sort of person who likes to make their own decisions then it will be right up your alley!

The front attaching harness gives you leverage. The dog cannot pull you towards whatever it wants to, and if he does become aggressive you can simply walk away. Distance puts them out of drive pretty quickly. I don't care if they want to have a hissy fit on the way. I have used them on some very large dogs with some very small handlers, and Cosmolo and K9Pro seem to have had similar results.

Okay, so lets say you do have an extremely agressive dog. What if that dog then turns his aggression on the handler? How would you use the harness to control that behaviour then?

Good question. If I was genuinely concerned that the dog might redirect to the handler I would suggest a head halter, either a Gentle Leader or the Black Dog model so that the handler can control the dog's head and mouth easily.

[Black Bronson]

BB- sometimes an owner DOES need a headcollar or front connecting harness to teach loose lead walking!! What is wrong with that? Why is that worse than an owner needing a prong or correction collar to teach the dog to walk well?

In most cases those owners will teach the dog little and simply mangage the dog better on such a device. Those type of owners will continue to use the devices until their dog draws it last breath. As I mentioned, dog training and dog management are two different things

[Cosmolo]

And you don't think people get dependent on their correction collars and prongs as well? I'm not debating the fact that some people just use tools to manage behaviour- but to suggest this doesn't happen with all tools is misleading IMO.

If i thought a dog was likely to redirect, i would not be using a front connecting harness either.

[lanabanana]

Lots of fantastic information in here as well as conflicting opinions. Thanks everyone - I am learning heaps.

I don't know as much as anyone in here but I did make note of the "cut off air supply" comments. And have to say, when my dog goes nuts for whatever reason, choking off his air supply does absolutely nothing. Not that I make ahabit of it but I have done it a couple of times and he will just continue with whatever he is doing regardless of whether he can breathe or not.

Now, I can't remember the posters name but they have a dog called Erik, you said about arousal etc etc. Yea, I totally think it is that, he is just so excited to be out there (you can get him home and go out again 5 minutes later and he will still be just as excited about it) which means he wants to go go go. How will a clicker help in this situation and do I get him used to it for other stuff first? (I have read a bit about clickers but I am cincerned it may be hard to use and control dog at same time???

[Aidan3]

I'm not sure Steve was talking about using front connecting harnesses on aggressive dogs though? Hopefully he will come back and clarify for us!

Actually neither was I (it was BB's hypothetical) so let's not let the facts get in the way!

Edited June 5, 2010 by Aidan2

[Erny]

I have used the "stabilising collar" (aka "dominant dog collar") once or twice. It is VERY effective. But it is for different purposes than LLW and there is no way I would want, suggest or recommend it be used by anyone without instruction. It is very quick and only takes a small movement. It does work to alter the dog's focus from (say) wanting to eat the other dog to wanting to breathe. But it is not something I use a lot as I prefer to work other methods (distance; positive associations; etc) first. IMO it is more for the 'hard core' belief dogs. And as I said, it isn't something you 'toy' with just to 'try it out'.

Steve (K9 Pro) has had more experience with these than I and I'm sure he would be able to more confidently support or contradict my opinion.

[persephone]

This thread just gets better So much good information to be gleaned from it.

[Prydenjoy]

Just a tip when you have conflicting information, take the safest advice with the least potential for negative side effects and use it first. Hopefully it will work, at least then you wont be feeling guilty later for doing something to your dog that was unnecessary and stressful for all involved.

Front clip harness is probably your best bet, even if a few people here don't even seem to know what they are

[kamuzz]

Maybe BB needs to start another thread on the difference between managing and training.

I don't think the OP said their dog was aggressive either?

[Red Fox]

Okay, so lets say you do have an extremely agressive dog. What if that dog then turns his aggression on the handler? How would you use the harness to control that behaviour then?

Good question. If I was genuinely concerned that the dog might redirect to the handler I would suggest a head halter, either a Gentle Leader or the Black Dog model so that the handler can control the dog's head and mouth easily.

But if you put an aggressive dog in a head collar would it not be lunging all over the place too? Why would you not muzzle the dog instead?

(again, genuine questin)

And you don't think people get dependent on their correction collars and prongs as well? I'm not debating the fact that some people just use tools to manage behaviour- but to suggest this doesn't happen with all tools is misleading IMO.

I think people do get dependent on correction collars. But the problem there though is not the tool it's the method - if you are becoming relient on ANY tool then you are not training llw correctly.

If i thought a dog was likely to redirect, i would not be using a front connecting harness either.

I didn't think you would. But keeping in mind that this is a public forum it is worthwhile pointing that out

What would you use on a dog that you thought was likely to redirect Cosmolo?

[Red Fox]

Maybe BB needs to start another thread on the difference between managing and training.

I don't think the OP said their dog was aggressive either?

No, but I think it's made for a very interesting discussion

[sas]

Maybe BB needs to start another thread on the difference between managing and training.

Maybe BB can start their own Facebook Fan page?

[Aidan3]

But if you put an aggressive dog in a head collar would it not be lunging all over the place too? Why would you not muzzle the dog instead?

(again, genuine questin)

You might muzzle the dog, it would depend on the dog/handler combination and what you were trying to achieve. If you are using food a muzzle will slow you down.

Most dogs will not lunge on a head collar at all, and of those that do the majority learn very quickly that it is fruitless so long as the owner doesn't do anything to encourage it (like reinforce it by trying to "calm the dog down" or worse, removing the head collar).

[Prydenjoy]

Maybe BB can start their own Facebook Fan page?

He can be his own number one (and only) fan

If I was worried about a dog redirecting I'd have it on a muzzle regardless of whatever was controlling the dog. I'd first make sure that the dog was happy in the muzzle though, by desensitizing it etc

[sas]

But if you put an aggressive dog in a head collar would it not be lunging all over the place too? Why would you not muzzle the dog instead?

(again, genuine questin)

You might muzzle the dog, it would depend on the dog/handler combination and what you were trying to achieve. If you are using food a muzzle will slow you down.

Most dogs will not lunge on a head collar at all, and of those that do the majority learn very quickly that it is fruitless so long as the owner doesn't do anything to encourage it (like reinforce it by trying to "calm the dog down" or worse, removing the head collar).

I've had one fear aggressive Dane perfectly hand-able on a head halter and another one that twisted and turned to try and get behind me if they saw a dog and was a right prat but you can control the lunge factor.

For the later we did intensive training and just use a check these days....all dogs are different...

I'm all for whatever works....whatever gives the handler control and confidence....because with a fear agro one you need confidence otherwise you're not going to get very far.

Edited June 5, 2010 by sas