Chronic Puller! Help!

[Red Fox]

I thought that might get some responses! Firstly, no it does not apply to the entire population of dogs. However, it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed. This makes it hard to know whether you are using common sense or not (intuitively any reasonable person might conclude that a dog who looks shut down or paws at his nose is stressed), but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar.

So what you're trying to say is the dogs that are NOT good candidates for the head collar and DO become stressed to the point of self mutilation don't count?

[Cosmolo]

If a dog put there head down and wouldn't look at the owner and they were wearing a correction collar, i know people who would be jumping up and down But regardless of whether there is or isn't stress associated with pieces of equipment- the more important factor IMO is how quickly the stress is resolved and what the dog gains after the stressful event. Most dogs with any issue are already stressed too- confused, anxious, frustrated etc. I want to know how the dog feels at the end of my training session and how that compares to the beginning-minor peaks and troughs in the middle are a lesser issue.

BB I can assure you that if i yelled at my clients and stressed them to the point that they were scared of me- they would not come back to training. And how on earth would that be beneficial to anyone? Clients will not pay to come to training and be abused or intimidated.

[Black Bronson]

I mean this with respect- but i really think some people need to go out and work with a few hundred dogs and owners (now- in todays society) and then come back to discuss further.

Not everybody listens to the trainer they hire. And some that do are not capable of doing certain things- no matter how hard they try- this is why flexiblity within a trainer and a wide range of techniques is a good and powerful thing. Reality is worlds apart from 'ideal'.

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

You know, people have a lot of choice about where to train their dog these days. I doubt many clients would hang around if the instructors scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and not come back if you won't listen Training is about communication afterall Plus, dog training is meant to be FUN!

The point is, if learning how to train a dog is what you wanted to achieve, you didn't tell the trainer how to do it, you listened intently, did as you were told and trained your dog. Those that didn't, never learned to train and never ended up with well trained dog. Same applies today, the one's who won't comply with the trainers requirements and set down unrealistic boundaries for the trainer to work within, won't end up with a well trained dog either. :D

[Erny]

... the more important factor IMO is how quickly the stress is resolved and what the dog gains after the stressful event.

Agree - although all things being equal, if there were another method/tool which the owner could use equally as well and which could produce less stress in that dog and have the dog gain the same, then that's what I'd go for. So the more important factor IMO would be about finding that tool/method.

I think you'd agree with this anyway, Cosmolo. I believe I understand where you were coming from with the above.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Erny

[Black Bronson]

How is a head collar or harness goint to stop an aggressive dog once it flies off the handle in a rage of fighting drive???. What do you do to re-gain control and subdue the dog without an approriate tool to administer the correction???.

Aidan............don't forget to answer this question, we are all patientely waiting. :D

This is the scene:

One of your 45kilo female customers that you have advised to use a harness on a 42kilo dog that's just tipped over the aggression threshhold and wants to take someones head off. The dog is pulling the owner towards a 10 year old child backed up against a fence petrified that the dog is about to kill him. The owner can't physically hold the dog back and the kid is frozen in fear................what are you going to do to stop an attack in that situation when the dog is un-muzzled and wearing a harness

BB, to be honest I'm not sure that having this discussion is very profitable for either of us. Your most recent comments demonstrate ignorance of principles of behaviour and modern equipment that does not fit into your experience and understanding, which as far as I can tell hasn't changed much since the 1970s. If you don't understand that a front attaching harness prevents the dog from pulling, or the most basic principles of classical conditioning (which was studied and well understood 50 years before Koehler started yanking and cranking) then how do we ever get to the same page?

I have a client with a rescue dog who was aggressive towards toddlers, children, had bitten adult men, and wouldn't let other dogs near him. He was muzzled, medicated, and kept away from everyone. She started working with me and suddenly her dog was playing with other dogs and letting men approach. We did not use a single correction with this dog, not even so much as a leash pop or verbal reprimand. He was not perfect, she could walk him off-leash around other dogs, but he was still fairly terrible with kids because we hadn't worked on that.

Then she fell pregnant. Fast forward three years and she has just had another baby, her extended family has grown, and her daughter has friends over. While she closely supervises, the dog is clearly comfortable with children now and she has no real concerns for their safety or her dog's anxiety.

Why do I tell you this? Not in the hope that you will change what you do, but in the hope that you will broaden your perspective of what is possible and maybe accept that there are different ways of doing things which are effective, and possibly even more effective. I do not consider a dog who is acting out of avoidance to be safe around things that he is still afraid of - at least when they were barking and lunging everyone knew what to expect.

As far as a 45kg person being dragged around by a 40kg aggressive dog on a front attaching harness, have you ever used a front attaching harness? I originally ignored your question because it just seemed such a silly thing to ask. The same as your comments on my friend with the GSDs, are you a 45kg vegan woman? If not, then your experience does not correlate with hers. I'm a 105kg powerlifter, rugby second rower and dog trainer; you could give me a couple of Malamutes in pulling harnesses and I would be able to walk them nicely. How does that relate to my 45kg vegan friend? Zero relevance.

Secret Kei asked about injury. There is no empirical evidence linking head halters with injury that I have found. I have access to thousands of journals on academic databases, as does my veterinary behaviourist colleague and neither of us could find a shred of evidence that there has ever been an injury in a healthy dog directly attributable to a head halter. Plenty of arguments, a few anecdotal reports, no data. With the hundreds of thousands of these things used every day you would think that there would be at least one properly documented case of injury or at least a study showing a statistically significant correlation, but if there is then it has escaped us. DOLers can make of that what they will, and no doubt there will be some objections. If someone turns up a study, a case study, a survey report - whatever, then I would be very interested and I keep my mind open to the possibility that there may be data down the track or data that we have missed.

Wrong answer Aidan, the poor kid's in hospital, the owner charged and the dog PTS through stupid advice ANY dog, large and powerful especially, that may have the slightest inclination for aggression or unpredictable lunging MUST have a suitable neck collar if it flips it's lid. The ONLY way in that instance to subdue the dog safely is to block the dog's air, choke it out. You can't do that with a harness

Your theories and principals are all well and good, but to advise head collars and harnesses as a "saftey measure" for small females with large reactive dogs as you described is irresponsible and dangerous advice. Have a look at Ed Frawley's (Leerburg) instruction how to handle dogs like this and what equipment to use, trust me.........it's not head collars and harnesses for good reason

[Black Bronson]

'SecretKei' date='5th Jun 2010 - 11:15 AM' post='4583843']

'Kavik' post='4583658' date='5th Jun 2010 - 07:39 AM']You know, people have a lot of choice about where to train their dog these days. I doubt many clients would hang around if the instructors scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and not come back if you won't listen Training is about communication afterall Plus, dog training is meant to be FUN!

Still happens Particularly when you mention correction collars at the wrong obedience club :D

That's a classic SecretKei It's like the trainer of a similar group yelling at the GSD owner to keep her dog away from the others due to disruptive behaviour

[Black Bronson]

I guess that I first began learning to train dogs in the 70's and if you didn't do what the trainer told you to do, they would scream and yell and tell you to bugger off and don't come back to training if won't listen and do as you were told Some of those old school trainers were mongrels and stressful to train under, but they were good and always had competition level dogs of their own to demonstrate their skills. We wanted what they knew and would hang on every word they said.........geez, you wouldn't dare argue with the trainer back then

And back in the "good old days" you wouldn't see the range of breeds we do competing in various dog sports. I wonder how many scent hounds those old school trainers managed to train to competition level?

I wouldn't tolerate anyone speaking to me in such a disgusting abusive manner, you'd have to be a real pushover to take that crap

No, we didn't see the range of breeds back then, you are correct, but the same breeds still win, nothing changed there

[corvus]

At the risk of bringing half the forum down on my head, may I suggest a vague possibility to the OP? Let's consider what he wants and what you are giving him. Let's say he wants nothing tangible, just to explore, see what's coming up ahead. Let's say he is inherently excited by this activity, so he gets aroused and his physical activity increases as a result. He's on a leash, so there's nothing he can do with all that arousal but head down and plow ahead on his quest for exploration, information gathering, whatever you want to call it. What's the effect of putting a halti or something similar on him? Maybe all it does is frustrate his need to expend some energy moving forwards? And say you call him into a heel and he gets a food reward. What's that to him? It's not relevant to what all his focus is on: moving forwards in exploration. Maybe it'd work if he was in another mode of activity, like training, though. In a scenario where he is interested in a food reward.

Let's pretend I was right about why he's pulling and why previous approaches haven't worked (which may be a huge stretch 'cause I'm just taking stabs in the dark). If I were in your shoes, this is what I would consider my options. Either I find a way to jolt him out of the pulling, information-seeking track and try to get him onto a different track, most likely a training sort of mode, or I find a way to reward him with the kind of thing he's focused on. The first thing I'd try is the clicker, the reason why being it might be able to do the whole lot for me. If he's conditioned to perceive the clicker as not just a bridge, but a source of information, maybe the noise can act as a distraction, and then the click as both an information reward and a way to lever him into training mode, and then you've got his attention away from what he wants to do and all you have to do is keep his attention. Which is probably the hardest bit. My little Erik is a bit of a nut about taking in everything around him and gets obsessive and over-aroused by it all sometimes. If I can get him to me with a clicker, though, I have a pretty good hold of his attention as long as he thinks we're clicker training and I keep it fast to match his arousal. He has to get a high rate of clicks and treats. If I try to get his attention with a tug toy instead, it only works if he's been triggered by a chase scenario. He sees a cat running, he's ready and raring to go with a tug game. But if he's watching a dog on the other side of the road, he doesn't want food or tug games, but he could maybe go for some clicker training.

As a disclaimer, that's all pure speculation except the bit about Erik. Erik only gets that way when he's really aroused, and that's generally in response to a particular trigger, so maybe this isn't relevant to your problem at all. Maybe I'm also wildly wrong about Erik's motivations and why I'm finding that reward selection seems important for him. It's just something to think about.

[Cosmolo]

As a 60kg female who did have a very unfortunate incident with a dog in drive trying to kill one of mine- trying to block the dogs air supply did absolutely nothing anyway. When you're in that situation, the last thing i'd be thinking about is i wish i had XYZ piece of equipment- i'd be extracting myself from the situation and then working out how to avoid getting into such a dangerous position again.

BB- i think you should use a front connecting harness before you judge them.

[huski]

No, we didn't see the range of breeds back then, you are correct, but the same breeds still win, nothing changed there

Sure, sometimes. My beagle can work better than dogs of some of those breeds, breed alone means nothing unless you use methods that are right for the individual dog.

There aren't a lot of top competition dogs still trained with the old yank and crank methods that you are so fond of, BB.

[Black Bronson]

I thought that might get some responses! Firstly, no it does not apply to the entire population of dogs. However, it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed. This makes it hard to know whether you are using common sense or not (intuitively any reasonable person might conclude that a dog who looks shut down or paws at his nose is stressed), but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar.

The point is Aidan regardless.................you don't need a head collar on any dog to teach a loose leash walk in the first place

[huski]

If I try to get his attention with a tug toy instead, it only works if he's been triggered by a chase scenario. He sees a cat running, he's ready and raring to go with a tug game. But if he's watching a dog on the other side of the road, he doesn't want food or tug games, but he could maybe go for some clicker training.

Going by your posts Corvus, you call Erik your high drive dog, do you do much drive work with his tug toy? Why do you think he won't switch into drive (despite being quite prey driven) when he is distracted by another dog? Just interested cos it sounds like he has a lot of potential.

[Cosmolo]

BB- sometimes an owner DOES need a headcollar or front connecting harness to teach loose lead walking!! What is wrong with that? Why is that worse than an owner needing a prong or correction collar to teach the dog to walk well?

[corvus]

If I try to get his attention with a tug toy instead, it only works if he's been triggered by a chase scenario. He sees a cat running, he's ready and raring to go with a tug game. But if he's watching a dog on the other side of the road, he doesn't want food or tug games, but he could maybe go for some clicker training.

Going by your posts Corvus, you call Erik your high drive dog, do you do much drive work with his tug toy? Why do you think he won't switch into drive (despite being quite prey driven) when he is distracted by another dog? Just interested cos it sounds like he has a lot of potential.

Not much for a while, Huski. His brain broke at around 8 months and he's only just starting to use it again. Semi-truth. It's hard to answer because I'm not approaching it in a systematic way or talking about our current situation. Will he tug around strange dogs now? In some circumstances there's no stopping him and another dog would have to dart through his peripheral vision to distract him from it. In other circumstances, I would keep it short and sweet and dismiss him after 30 seconds of it, or if a dog was heading our way. In yet other circumstances, I wouldn't try. I figure it can only be damaging to use a tug cue to get Erik's attention when he doesn't want to tug. I know he doesn't want to tug if he doesn't notice me ever so discreetly lifting my hand up to my waist bag where his mini sheepy tug on a ribbon lives. Or at least needs more than a quiet "Hey Erik, wanna play?" to get his attention.

[Aidan3]

I thought that might get some responses! Firstly, no it does not apply to the entire population of dogs. However, it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed. This makes it hard to know whether you are using common sense or not (intuitively any reasonable person might conclude that a dog who looks shut down or paws at his nose is stressed), but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar.

So what you're trying to say is the dogs that are NOT good candidates for the head collar and DO become stressed to the point of self mutilation don't count?

I didn't discount any dogs at all and if after reading this you have any doubts I'd be interested in how you came to that conclusion?

I said that the results of the study do not apply to the entire population of dogs. There are "outliers" in any population. Just because this study says that dogs wearing head collars don't demonstrate physiological signs of stress doesn't mean that there won't be dogs in the entire population of dogs in the world who aren't stressed.

What the study makes clear is that pawing at a head collar, looking down, or not looking at the handler as much are not always signs of stress. For the representative sample of dogs in the study wearing Gentle Leaders those behaviours were not signs of stress according to the physiological measures taken. This point is very important.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Aidan2

[Aidan3]

Wrong answer Aidan, the poor kid's in hospital, the owner charged and the dog PTS through stupid advice ANY dog, large and powerful especially, that may have the slightest inclination for aggression or unpredictable lunging MUST have a suitable neck collar if it flips it's lid. The ONLY way in that instance to subdue the dog safely is to block the dog's air, choke it out. You can't do that with a harness

I'm not sure why you think that it is acceptable to call my advice "stupid" but I would remind you that this sort of attack is not appropriate here.

A front attaching harness gives the owner leverage so that the dog is not able to overpower the handler. The handler is free to simply walk away from a difficult situation taking the dog with them. This is not true when the dog is wearing a check chain or dominant dog collar and unless the handler is very strong they will not be able to complete the dangerous procedure that you have described.

Given your now evident lack of understanding of the tool being discussed I have to wonder why you believe you are qualified to criticise it? Have you ever seen one being used? I'm afraid Ed Frawley's opinion isn't much to base an argument on.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Aidan2

[Black Bronson]

If a dog put there head down and wouldn't look at the owner and they were wearing a correction collar, i know people who would be jumping up and down But regardless of whether there is or isn't stress associated with pieces of equipment- the more important factor IMO is how quickly the stress is resolved and what the dog gains after the stressful event. Most dogs with any issue are already stressed too- confused, anxious, frustrated etc. I want to know how the dog feels at the end of my training session and how that compares to the beginning-minor peaks and troughs in the middle are a lesser issue.

BB I can assure you that if i yelled at my clients and stressed them to the point that they were scared of me- they would not come back to training. And how on earth would that be beneficial to anyone? Clients will not pay to come to training and be abused or intimidated.

So what's happened is the training concept has turned a full circle where instead of doing what the trainer tells you to do, the client is telling the trainer how they want it done. The problem is, the client doesn't know how to train a dog and if success is their motive, they need to listen and learn from someone who does

Edited June 5, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Aidan3]

Thing is, the neck injury might not be evident straight away, so the link to how the neck injury was caused can only be deduced

That is true, but a well designed longitudinal study should throw up a probability of injury with a reasonably large sample. A confounder would be that dogs who pull into flat collars would also be at risk of injury so even if head collars do cause injury the data might not show it compared to the controls (just thinking out loud here).

I don't know much about necks and spines (apart from being a qualified Bowen Therapist in a former life), but what I know from playing in the tight five in rugby is that having your head pulled to the side isn't something I worry about. Having force applied directly to your neck, like in a high tackle, or down on your head, like in a bad scrum, are the big worries. If this applies to dogs I have no idea. Certainly any dog who is chronically pulling into any sort of neck or head collar is at heightened risk of overuse injury, and thankfully dogs in head collars tend not to pull into them chronically (as they do into flat collars), although they do exist as we know.

Sorry, couldn't get you the whole paper. My university does not have a veterinary science department so does not subscribe to this journal. I would like to know the sample size used in particular. Corvus might have access to it.

[Cosmolo]

Clients don't tell me how they want to train because as you know, they're not sure themselves. What i am saying is that i assess the whole picture before deciding on a training regime and that includes the dog AND the handler. I don't decide that just because i can do XYZ with a dog and get a great result myself, that thats what i will do.

[Red Fox]

I thought that might get some responses! Firstly, no it does not apply to the entire population of dogs. However, it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed. This makes it hard to know whether you are using common sense or not (intuitively any reasonable person might conclude that a dog who looks shut down or paws at his nose is stressed), but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar.

So what you're trying to say is the dogs that are NOT good candidates for the head collar and DO become stressed to the point of self mutilation don't count?

I didn't discount any dogs at all and if after reading this you have any doubts I'd be interested in how you came to that conclusion?

I said that the results of the study do not apply to the entire population of dogs. There are "outliers" in any population. Just because this study says that dogs wearing head collars don't demonstrate physiological signs of stress doesn't mean that there won't be dogs in the entire population of dogs in the world who aren't stressed.

What the study makes clear is that pawing at a head collar, looking down, or not looking at the handler as much are not always signs of stress. For the representative sample of dogs in the study wearing Gentle Leaders those behaviours were not signs of stress according to the physiological measures taken. This point is very important.

How I came to the conclusion that you were discounting a certain group of dogs? Or how I came to the conclusion the a halti is not only stressful for the dog but not the best way of teaching llw?

Okay, well you stated that:

"it does clearly demonstrate that just because a dog paws at his nose and puts his head down and not look at the owner does not indicate that the dog is stressed"

But then went on to say:

"but I would think that if a dog is scratching to the point of mutilation then that particular dog is not a candidate for the head collar"

and

"the results of the study do not apply to the entire population of dogs"

and

"Just because this study says that dogs wearing head collars don't demonstrate physiological signs of stress doesn't mean that there won't be dogs in the entire population of dogs in the world who aren't stressed."

So you are firstly saying that the study clearly demonstrates that the dogs are not stressed, but then contradicting it by saying that if a dog is stressed then they are not a good candidate for the head collar anyway Thats where I got lost anyway...

If you are enquiring as to the latter - personal experience.

I have seen my OWN dog in a head collar, lunging at the end of the leash and tearing at his face, I have seen other dogs plodding along with no joy in their step or being dragged around by their owners because they have all but shut down. Sorry but saying that these dogs are not stressed doesn't wash with me.

I've also had an instructor yell in my face and tell me that not only are prong collars cruel and illegal but that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to teach my dog to walk on a loose leash without a head collar, and certainly not with a prong.

Well guess what? I now have a dog who walks perfectly on a flat collar - and I didn't use a head collar to train it