Chronic Puller! Help!

[Aidan3]

Even methods like 'be a tree' and the change of direction technique that are commonly use to train LLW are corrective in some way.

Be a Tree is really an extinction procedure, which I would say is "corrective" in that it changes the unwanted behaviour, but it's not a punisher. I'm fairly firm with some dogs, in that I don't give them any impression that I will let them pull me around and so they are getting some collar pops as I change direction or stop suddenly, but I don't believe that [collar pop] is the stimulus that modifies their behaviour.

All pulling dogs are intermittently reinforced for pulling by getting where they want to go. Ending that schedule of reinforcement is unavoidable if you want to stop leash pulling.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Aidan2

[m-j]

In years gone by, off leash obedience determined a training system's credibility

If this is the case then check chains rate pretty poor as an effective training system. If you look at the average trial ring heeling score of ALL competitors when the training system was all check chain compared to these days I know the average is far higher these days where the majority of training is done with positive motivational methods, not to mention the recalls.

If you can use a management tool to get an opportunity to provide the dog with reinforcement for llw I really can't see what the issue is

cheers

M-J

[Red Fox]

How about teaching before correcting?!!!!

Well that's the ideal. You dont exactly put a correction collar on a dog and yank on it everytime the dog does something wrong! You first teach the command and then once the dog is solid you can begin to introduce the correction.

I'm not saying I agree with Black Bronson, but I would never write corrections off altogether... on their own they may be a crappy teaching tool but as part of a whole method I don't think corrections are always a bad thing :D Even methods like 'be a tree' and the change of direction technique that are commonly use to train LLW are corrective in some way.

Exactly. You are not 'teaching' the dog through corrections alone, it's part of a whole. If you're doing it right then idealy your praise and re-enforcement should out-weigh the corrections big time.

I hate the way that every single time on this list that the question comes up about a dog pulling on lead you can bet that someone will suggest a prong collar. Grrrr!!!!! Apart from the fact that they are illegal in this state and pretty much only available on the internet....why don't people suggest teaching the poor dog rather than correcting?

Because a prong collar can be a very useful training tool when used correctly And as far as I'm aware they are legal in all states apart from Victoria. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that though)

Every one of these threads seems to turn into a slinging match between prongs and haltis when the point of the whole thing should be to discuss llw and how it can be trained. It shouldn't be about 'this tool is bad' or 'that method is crap'. Seriously, come on. Bagging someone elses method or tool doesn't help here at all.

Another thing I dont understand - and this is a genuine question, I'm not having a dig - but why would a dog who was fully obedience trained and reliable off leash need to wear a head collar?

[bedazzledx2]

How about teaching before correcting?!!!!

Well that's the ideal. You dont exactly put a correction collar on a dog and yank on it everytime the dog does something wrong! You first teach the command and then once the dog is solid you can begin to introduce the correction.

If the dog is solid why would you need to correct?

I'm not saying I agree with Black Bronson, but I would never write corrections off altogether... on their own they may be a crappy teaching tool but as part of a whole method I don't think corrections are always a bad thing :D Even methods like 'be a tree' and the change of direction technique that are commonly use to train LLW are corrective in some way.

Exactly. You are not 'teaching' the dog through corrections alone, it's part of a whole. If you're doing it right then idealy your praise and re-enforcement should out-weigh the corrections big time.

I hate the way that every single time on this list that the question comes up about a dog pulling on lead you can bet that someone will suggest a prong collar. Grrrr!!!!! Apart from the fact that they are illegal in this state and pretty much only available on the internet....why don't people suggest teaching the poor dog rather than correcting?

Because a prong collar can be a very useful training tool when used correctly And as far as I'm aware they are legal in all states apart from Victoria. (Someone please correct me if I'm wrong on that though)

I don't know anywhere in WA you could buy a prong collar. You couldn't train on Canine grounds with one. If its not technically illegal it is unavailable.

Every one of these threads seems to turn into a slinging match between prongs and haltis when the point of the whole thing should be to discuss llw and how it can be trained. It shouldn't be about 'this tool is bad' or 'that method is crap'. Seriously, come on. Bagging someone elses method or tool doesn't help here at all.

But no-one seems to want to teach llw. I don't consider correcting to be any sort of teaching method. I have given a small example of how I would start as has Aiden. Why jump in with a correction?

Another thing I dont understand - and this is a genuine question, I'm not having a dig - but why would a dog who was fully obedience trained and reliable off leash need to wear a head collar?

Actually I don't use a head collar. I have taught llw to the degree I want it. Like a harness it can be used when you don't want precise heelwork which is very different to llw. There are times, strange as it sounds, when I want my dog to pull! Building a restrained recall for example, but thats a different matter!

[Black Bronson]

I am really disolusioned by some trainers advice that people have hired to correct leash pulling and they advise a head collar or harness...........what the hell for???

I'd be disillusioned by any trainer who didn't show the client how to train the dog, I'm not sure what it has to do with the equipment they use? I'm also not sure why you would insist that a head collar is a gimmick just because it is relatively new?

It's quite simple, they give leverage. If the dog is stronger than the owner, they address the power imbalance. That's it. They do not train a dog to walk close to you and neither does a prong collar. You train a dog to walk in close proximity to you using lots and lots of reinforcement - and that goes whether you use positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement. On leash or off-leash.

If someone needs leverage (dog chases cats for e.g) or just needs to take the dog for a walk before they are reliable on a flat collar, you use a head halter. I have a friend who weighs 45kg, her two dogs (now deceased) both almost outweighed her. She used head halters on both dogs every single day. These dogs had obedience titles, had never pulled on the leash problematically, and had excellent off-leash obedience. She was just being pragmatic.

I just explained my reason for the "gimmick"..........pulling was rehabilitated easily long before the head collar was thought of..........dog's don't pull any differently of late than they did 100 years ago. Pulling isn't a new behaviour that has just surfaced in recent times to an untrainable epedemic requiring a head collar. There were far more nice walking obedient dogs in the times where a leash was rarely used after initial training that managed to be trained very well on a piece of rope..........what's difference now..........same dog different trainers???.

[Black Bronson]

Black Bronson, have you ever met someone that, regardless of the amount of training they have completed, could not use a correction collar properly? Or could not use it to the degree required for their dog?

Front connecting harnesses are a godsend for some of my clients and their dogs. It allows them to control the behaviour enough so that they have something to reinforce, rather than wrestling with the dog all the time.

Yes I have, but generally by trainers that are not good at teaching the training concept. In fact, I have known some great trainers who can train a dog themselves extremely well, but struggle teaching someone else how to do it.

[Black Bronson]

Leash pulling as I mentioned before is an extremely old behaviour and was easily corrected long before head collars and harnesses were marketed as behavioural management tools. In years gone by, off leash obedience determined a training system's credibility in the days when many people didn't even own a leash and didn't need one obviously prior to leash requirements by law. Considering that loose leash/no leash walking had been acomplished for so many years prior to the head collar/harness marketing tells me that these tools are more a gimmick than a worthwhile necessity for teaching a nice walk.

Just in addition to my previous post, it is still quite common to see dogs dragging their owners around as they gasp for air, constricted by the check chain being used incorrectly. I certainly wouldn't say that things were any better in the old days. Putting aside the lack of training aspect, I would rather see this sort of dog in a head halter or harness not pulling than being choked by a chain. At least they are getting walked and everyone is happy.

Yes exactly.........so instead of teaching the owner how to handle the dog properly and train it, they suggest a head collar instead My instinct when seeing a dog dragging it's owner around on a choker, couging and spluttering as the owner cannot keep up with the dog, is the need to try and teach the person how to handle and train the dog.........like give me the leash and I will show you. Those coughing, choking dogs walking their owners are out of control in a big way and their owners need some serious help :D

[Black Bronson]

'bedazzledx2' date='3rd Jun 2010 - 11:43 PM' post='4580903']

I used to use a halti on my Kelpie (she was obedience trained and had her UD title) It was not a training device...it was management. I am a better trainer now and only use a flat collar on my dogs. When I want them to walk nicely and not pull, I put a bit of effort in and remind them of our training (no corrections necessary!) I think its really important to become a good teacher rather than a good trainer. How do dogs know that you don't like pulling? By correcting? That is crappy teaching!!!! (I don't mean you Aiden )

It's only people who don't like the method will tell you that corrections are crappy training which is only an opinion. I think having people mess around with head collars for two years and when the collar comes off, the dog bolts like startled chook is real crappy training when the dog's hopeless without restraint. Dog's need to learn the consequences of good and bad behaviour and be able to make the choice for themselves with a clear definition what's likely to occur in both cases. Not allowing a dog to experience the effects of bad behaviour IMO is unfair on the dog.

[Black Bronson]

Aidan, I'm only going off my own experiences with head collars, nothing to do with what I've read or heard on this forum :D

I couldn't count the amount of times people have said to me "Oh yeah, the halti is great! My dog calms right down as soon as I put it on, but he goes stupid again when I take it off". Or the amount of dogs I saw plodding along at obedience with their heads down and their haltis on. To me that says it's not changing the behaviour, just managing it. I guess if people were shown the correct method then it wouldn't be such a problem but I think too many people sing the praises of head collars without looking at the bigger picture :D

I see plenty of dogs wearing them out on their walk every day too. Most of these dogs look happy and I'm sure that their owners are greatful for a tool that allows them to safely walk their dogs. That's not a bad thing at all.

But I still think there are better and more effective ways to train a llw than haltis or harnesses and personally I wouldn't use a head collar on my dog

Nice perspective SecretKei, I totally agree 100% Good post

[Snoopy21]

Yes I have, but generally by trainers that are not good at teaching the training concept. In fact, I have known some great trainers who can train a dog themselves extremely well, but struggle teaching someone else how to do it.

Like Cesar Millan?

I think having people mess around with head collars for two years and when the collar comes off, the dog bolts like startled chook is real crappy training when the dog's hopeless without restraint.

My dog will still bolt like a startled chook whether she comes off the head collar, martingale or prong. How does which training tool you use change how the dog will react when you take it off?

[Aidan]

I just explained my reason for the "gimmick"..........pulling was rehabilitated easily long before the head collar was thought of..........dog's don't pull any differently of late than they did 100 years ago. Pulling isn't a new behaviour that has just surfaced in recent times to an untrainable epedemic requiring a head collar. There were far more nice walking obedient dogs in the times where a leash was rarely used after initial training that managed to be trained very well on a piece of rope..........what's difference now..........same dog different trainers???.

The difference could be in your perspective? It seems a bit romantic to me, I may be younger than you but I certainly don't recall things being better then. When I started training dogs, which was not all that long ago relatively speaking but prior to the popularity of head collars, there were a lot of dogs who pulled into a check chain who were not trained or who were left in the back yard to rot. Hooray for the good old days, huh?

Cosmolo is one of the best trainers and teachers (of people with dogs) in this country with a proven record of thousands of clients. She is willing to admit that there are some people who just cannot (physically) or will not (behaviourally) "get it". Why condemn their dogs to a life in the back yard for the sake of a trainer's ego or romanticism about the past? That's a wholly unrealistic expectation and not in the best interest of dogs.

Now if someone comes to me, as a dog trainer, and says that their dog pulls on the leash then of course I will show them what to do. If they are committed to being consistent then they will get results and I will do my best to get them to understand the importance of this. How effective I am depends on a lot of factors but the tool that I show them how to use is not an important predictor of success. If I showed them how to use a prong collar they would not be in a better position than if I showed them how to do it with a flat collar, head collar or no collar at all. I train by principle, not method.

[Aidan]

Another thing I dont understand - and this is a genuine question, I'm not having a dig - but why would a dog who was fully obedience trained and reliable off leash need to wear a head collar?

My friend weighed 45kg, her dogs each weighed around 40kg. She liked to walk them at the same time. Her choice was entirely pragmatic. For e.g, I do remember her telling me a story about a bunch of drunk guys hassling her while walking the dogs one evening. The dogs were understandably agitated by this, but not protection trained.

[m-j]

It's only people who don't like the method will tell you that corrections are crappy training which is only an opinion. I think having people mess around with head collars for two years and when the collar comes off, the dog bolts like startled chook is real crappy training when the dog's hopeless without restraint. Dog's need to learn the consequences of good and bad behaviour and be able to make the choice for themselves with a clear definition what's likely to occur in both cases. Not allowing a dog to experience the effects of bad behaviour IMO is unfair on the dog.

I don't agree The example I gave with the trial heeling is quantifiable (which is why I mentioned it) From what I have read in this thread your examples are your opinion. Myself who was also around in the days of correction training only doesn't agree with your opinion, based on my experiences and perspective, who is right who is wrong, my answer is who knows because of the variables in both opinions.

Why is it unfair? I think correcting a dog for something that we determine "bad behaviour" which in most case is very normal dog behaviour is unfair. Why not just teach it what it needs to do instead, rather than correct the many things it does wrong (bearing in mind that when correcting or rewaring a dog, most of the time, they think receiving the correction or reward to be for what they are thinking of ,not their behaviour)?

cheers

M-J

[Erny]

Why is it unfair? I think correcting a dog for something that we determine "bad behaviour" which in most case is very normal dog behaviour is unfair. Why not just teach it what it needs to do instead, rather than correct the many things it does wrong (bearing in mind that when correcting or rewaring a dog, most of the time, they think receiving the correction or reward to be for what they are thinking of ,not their behaviour)?

I agree in essence, that this is the ideal and to strive to achieve the behaviour we want and extinguish the behaviour we don't this way is the optimum. But it is not always possible to do this in an efficient manner with some dogs, and to not be efficient isn't always or necessarily often the best thing for the dog either. Consequently, my aim is to work with teaching what TO do first and foremost, and then, if corrections are required, it is only for the residual unwanted behaviour which hopefully has reduced, meaning less corrections than if approaching training from the opposite angle.

With some of the more difficult dogs that are presented for training (and remember that some people 'present' for training when they themselves are at their wits end, which means the dog has a lot of learnt over the top unwanted behaviour experience under its belt), a correction might be needed as a manner of saying 'stop!' even if its action produces a startle effect rather than a learning effect in this first instance. That opens the door of opportunity (and this is where good timing comes in) to then show the dog the "TO do" behaviours that will achieve it better things.

As far as equipment is concerned - there is no one "better" training tool and they should all be embraced for what they do and can accomplish. If only the dog was to be taken into account, I do have my preferences (but even they aren't set in stone because every dog is an individual). Thing is we do need to take into account the owners, their capabilities and what they want and also the environment and situation they live in. Because when it is all said and done, if it's not to their liking and abilities they aren't going to be willing to move forward and work/interact with their dog. And the real loser in that equation is going to be the dog.

So it is a matter of looking at the big picture and not the picture that we'd prefer to paint for ourselves. Therefore, no training tool or method should be excluded from the 'art' of dog training, speaking generally.

ETA: I am speaking generally and that includes all behaviours, whether they be from an obedience training point of view (eg. sit, drop, pulling on lead), or a general problematic behaviour (eg. reactivity/excitement/rushing to other dogs ) pov.

Edited June 4, 2010 by Erny

[Steve K9Pro]

K9: Starting from the original post...

He knows "heel" and will immediately go to the right positon but the second he is there he leaves and is straight out at the end of the lead again.

K9: So he knows the static heel position only.

Not to mention that when he is on-lead if he sees another dog he goes nuts.

K9: Goes nuts? as in aggressive? excited? has this been diagnosed?

Trying to overcome anxiety, fearfulness over over excitement with just leash training is going to be a long road.

*****************************

There is also a heap of talk going back and fourth about maintenance and training tools, and which works best.

I am not a fan of the head halter nor do I like the older no pull harnesses.

We test equipment and I have tested every halter I could get my hands on and they are still not something I recommend. If we have a client turn up with one on their dog and they are having good results with it, then it can stay on. This doesnt happen very often though.

In my opinion, the Halter has a couple of flaws that at this stage prevent me from recommending them: -

1. Dogs with nerve/anxiety/fear problems often display greater desgrees of these problems when their jaws and head restrained.

2. The dog can clearly see when it is wearing the halter, and when its not.

3. It is highly restrictive for sport work competition etc.

4. When the lead is pulled either by the handler or the dog, the jaw is pulled shut (on some models) and the dog can bite its tongue.

5. Some dogs loathe them, the halter obviously applies pressure to the nerves in the face and this turns the dog on. Yes they can get used to them in many cases, but this may take some time.

6. Dogs lunging in these can and have caused neck injuries and rubbing from the nose strap have caused hair loss, skin irritation and worse.

7. I also see a lot of dogs not learning to walk with zero tension on the leash but pulling to their tolerance level and eventually desensitize to this and pull more. This is a training issue I know but still does happen.

I have in the last 3 months bought a stack of the newer no pull harnesses to test, some of them have shown some advantage but testing is far from complete, were not selling these or putting clients dogs in them as yet though.

I never make a lifetime decision on a product that changesm this would limit progress, I will test and retest producst thatc ome out with changes and test them unbiased every time, were always looking for products that will help our clients.

*****************************

There are a load of ways I can train a dog to Loose leash walk without training tools and just using a flat collar and communication, to more advanced tools like the remote collar and prong collar & I guarantee I can train 99% of dogs (that dont have major behavipour issues) to walk reliably on a loose leash with just a flat collar a leash and some time.

Does it matter though what I can do?

Clients come to us for results, not for me to show them what can be done with 20 plus years of experience.

Can this be taught with a clicker? sure, with verbal markers? sure it can, but keep in mind that the majority of dog owners out there dont want to go through a few weeks of learning these techniques and will give up long before that.

Is that right? nope but it is reality and berating people for not investing the time that "I" think they should just closes the door on the dog.

*****************************

The dog should be taught to walk on a leash before it learns to pull, for sure but it would be less than 1% of people who do this effectively. It can be hard to get right. We include a lot of this in our puppy training and some of it in our Distance Learning Package for Raising a pup.

It is a major problem when dogs arent taught impulse control, it can lead to aggression, lack of recall response, no focus and a difficult to train dog.

Earlier you start, better your chances.

*****************************

We have a lot of people do our Distance Package on Loose Leash Walking that do very well, a little better than 95% are todays figures, there are a small percentage of people that simple dont have the basic understanding and coordination to get this right, about 2% & there are a slightly larger percentage that dont follow the program as it is written in terms of distraction training, consistency and dedication.

The 95% plus do this very well, Secret Kei is one of them actually!

The small percentage that dont have what it takes to coordinate themselves may do well on some of these Anti Pull harnesses and they should use them too, use anything that works and is not cruel I say.

The group that dont dedicate themselves to the programs and their dog, they wont be helped by any tool long term, the problem isnt in the dog or the tool.

*****************************

Rarely too is the only problem a dog has leash pulling, there is often a lack of respect, poor bond, poor pack structure (often brought about by the leash pulling!) so it really isnt about who can pull hardest on the leash

[Red Fox]

If the dog is solid why would you need to correct?

Because the dog understands the command but it chosing not to follow it. You are reminding the dog that he needs to comply with a known command.

I see the correction as a reminder of where the dogs attention should be -not a punishment. If I have a prong collar on my dog I only need to use tiny little pops to bring his attention back to me when needed. I NEVER yank on the collar, I dont need to. And certainly never cause him any pain!

Perhaps this is different from owner to owner, dog to dog, but it's certianly not 'yank and crank' punishment here.

I don't know anywhere in WA you could buy a prong collar. You couldn't train on Canine grounds with one. If its not technically illegal it is unavailable.

Okay, fair enough. They are not something that is widely available, but you certainly can buy them in most states if you know where to look. I think there's good reason for that though -being able to buy any type of correction device of the shelf without the proper knowledge of how to use it is a bad idea. At least prong collars are highly regulated in that way. You can't say the same for some of the other 'tools', check chains for example

But no-one seems to want to teach llw. I don't consider correcting to be any sort of teaching method. I have given a small example of how I would start as has Aiden. Why jump in with a correction?

You wouldn't just 'jump in with a correction' though

Actually I don't use a head collar. I have taught llw to the degree I want it. Like a harness it can be used when you don't want precise heelwork which is very different to llw. There are times, strange as it sounds, when I want my dog to pull! Building a restrained recall for example, but thats a different matter!

Yep, I agree and that question wasn't really aimed at you in particular. Though I'm not sure what not wanting precise heel work has to do with using head collar though? Wouldn't you teach llw with a different command, rather than a different tool? (Sorry if I have misinterperated what you were trying to say).

[Cosmolo]

As others have said and as i have said before. It does not matter what i can do with a dog. It does not matter if i can have that dog walking great on a prong, flat collar or otherwise. It matters what the owner can do and i see NO issue with making an owners life easier through methods and/ or tools that are not detrimental to a dog.

I have recently started using sensible harnesses- front connecting harnesses available only through America at the moment (there are a few similar ones available here but the slight differences i don't like as much) The success CLIENTS have had with their dogs, with these tools is great and i will continue to use them where appropriate, just as i continue to use other tools when appropriate.

This rubbish about some tools manage, some tools correct gives far too much value to the tool and nowhere near enough to the skill, timing and consistency applied by the handler using it. A prong collar can be a management or a training tool. A headcollar can be a management or a training tool.

Owners are not the same as they were 30 years ago

Dogs are not the same as they were 30 years ago

Given we know thats the case- why wouldn't techniques and tools alter over time? WHy wouldn't we have more tools to choose from? We haven't stuck with black and white TVs just because they worked perfectly fine 'back then'.

[m-j]

I agree in essence, that this is the ideal and to strive to achieve the behaviour we want and extinguish the behaviour we don't this way is the optimum. But it is not always possible to do this in an efficient manner with some dogs, and to not be efficient isn't always or necessarily often the best thing for the dog either. Consequently, my aim is to work with teaching what TO do first and foremost, and then, if corrections are required, it is only for the residual unwanted behaviour which hopefully has reduced, meaning less corrections than if approaching training from the opposite angle.

Yes This is exactly my point I just don't see why we need to set the dog up to fail so you can correct it before it knows what is the right thing to do, which is how I interpreted BB's comment.

cheers

M-J

[Black Bronson]

Yes I have, but generally by trainers that are not good at teaching the training concept. In fact, I have known some great trainers who can train a dog themselves extremely well, but struggle teaching someone else how to do it.

Like Cesar Millan?

I think having people mess around with head collars for two years and when the collar comes off, the dog bolts like startled chook is real crappy training when the dog's hopeless without restraint.

My dog will still bolt like a startled chook whether she comes off the head collar, martingale or prong. How does which training tool you use change how the dog will react when you take it off?

Because the dog isn't being trained for good behaviour, and the tools are being used for restraint and management. It's like tying a dog up in the back yard stops it getting out the gate, but doesn't teach the dog not to go past the gate.

[Black Bronson]

I just explained my reason for the "gimmick"..........pulling was rehabilitated easily long before the head collar was thought of..........dog's don't pull any differently of late than they did 100 years ago. Pulling isn't a new behaviour that has just surfaced in recent times to an untrainable epedemic requiring a head collar. There were far more nice walking obedient dogs in the times where a leash was rarely used after initial training that managed to be trained very well on a piece of rope..........what's difference now..........same dog different trainers???.

The difference could be in your perspective? It seems a bit romantic to me, I may be younger than you but I certainly don't recall things being better then. When I started training dogs, which was not all that long ago relatively speaking but prior to the popularity of head collars, there were a lot of dogs who pulled into a check chain who were not trained or who were left in the back yard to rot. Hooray for the good old days, huh?

Cosmolo is one of the best trainers and teachers (of people with dogs) in this country with a proven record of thousands of clients. She is willing to admit that there are some people who just cannot (physically) or will not (behaviourally) "get it". Why condemn their dogs to a life in the back yard for the sake of a trainer's ego or romanticism about the past? That's a wholly unrealistic expectation and not in the best interest of dogs.

Now if someone comes to me, as a dog trainer, and says that their dog pulls on the leash then of course I will show them what to do. If they are committed to being consistent then they will get results and I will do my best to get them to understand the importance of this. How effective I am depends on a lot of factors but the tool that I show them how to use is not an important predictor of success. If I showed them how to use a prong collar they would not be in a better position than if I showed them how to do it with a flat collar, head collar or no collar at all. I train by principle, not method.

I think perhaps there is too much emphasis being placed upon a dogs lifestyle which clouds training regimes trying to cater for people that in some cases shouldn't own dogs, or own the type of dog they have. Catering for people's needs is a good thing, but there is a line IMHO where catering as a priority overrides better training practices. Personally, I think some trainers allow people to create too many barriers to work within, and some of these barriers are unrealistic for successful dog training. Instead of trainers just nodding their head and agreeing to try and train around a set of owner imposed obsticles to cater for what people think they can and cannot do, sometimes it could be better to be educate the owner what needs to be done in a more direct way. It's a bit like asking a doctor to cure an illness without taking medication