Chronic Puller! Help!

[Black Bronson]

IMHO, if you are resorting to management devices, head collars, harnesses etc to stop a dog pulling on leash, the training process is completely wrong. It's not about finding a tool to improve the behaviour it's about setting boundaries and teaching the dog how to walk properly and using a tool that will provide a correction when necessary.

You don't see any contradiction in that at all?

No Aidan, there are training tools and management tools and a difference between the two. Every time someone posts about dogs pulling on leash which I might add isn't a modern trend behaviour, infact leash pulling no doubt would have surfaced way back when the first ever dog was introduced to a leash long before any of posting here were born, but irrespective of that, the harness and head collar suggestions keep flowing. Sure thay can manage the behaviour and lessen the pulling effects, but generally speaking, they don't correct the behaviour, only manage it. Take a harness or head collar off a dog that is managed that way............and it's all over the place most of the time without it.

A dog properly trained to walk nicely shouldn't need a leash at all IMHO

Edited June 2, 2010 by Black Bronson

[Aidan]

IMHO, if you are resorting to management devices, head collars, harnesses etc to stop a dog pulling on leash, the training process is completely wrong. It's not about finding a tool to improve the behaviour it's about setting boundaries and teaching the dog how to walk properly and using a tool that will provide a correction when necessary.

You don't see any contradiction in that at all?

No Aidan, there are training tools and management tools and a difference between the two. Every time someone posts about dogs pulling on leash which I might add isn't a modern trend behaviour, infact leash pulling no doubt would have surfaced way back when the first ever dog was introduced to a leash long before any of posting here were born, but irrespective of that, the harness and head collar suggestions keep flowing. Sure thay can manage the behaviour and lessen the pulling effects, but generally speaking, they don't correct the behaviour, only manage it. Take a harness or head collar off a dog that is managed that way............and it's all over the place most of the time without it.

A dog properly trained to walk nicely shouldn't need a leash at all IMHO

A prong or check chain can be used as management tools also (and often are). In either case people need to train if they want flat collar or off-leash loose-leash walking, we seem to be in agreement on that. The contradiction is that you are also "resorting to a management device" when you use a prong collar or check chain. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, either way you need to train. All tools have pros and cons.

[Red Fox]

A prong or check chain can be used as management tools also (and often are). In either case people need to train if they want flat collar or off-leash loose-leash walking, we seem to be in agreement on that. The contradiction is that you are also "resorting to a management device" when you use a prong collar or check chain. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, either way you need to train. All tools have pros and cons.

Yes, but a prong collar (or a check chain, martingale etc) has the advantage of being able to give the dog a quick correction only when needed, ie you give the dog a command and he either complies and is rewarded or does not comply and is corrected. It's more precise IMO. Unlike a head collar that works by acting as a constant aversive when it's on and manages the behaviour that way..

I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

[Staff'n'Toller]

I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

If you can get periods of not pulling on a correction collar in order to deliver well timed corrections then yes, but quite often this isn't the case, owners can't get the loose lead bursts without professional instruction.

I've seen dogs who were perfect on prong collars and terrible when switched over to flat collar as well. You have to have been around in the times when they were commonly used though...makes me sound old haha.

Whether any piece of equipment is a management tool or a behaviour modification tool is entirely up to the handler's attitude.

[Aidan]

Yes, but a prong collar (or a check chain, martingale etc) has the advantage of being able to give the dog a quick correction only when needed, ie you give the dog a command and he either complies and is rewarded or does not comply and is corrected. It's more precise IMO. Unlike a head collar that works by acting as a constant aversive when it's on and manages the behaviour that way..

That seems to be the prevailing opinion on head collars here and it may be true in some cases, but it is certainly not the way a head collar should work. Behaviour analysts figure out if something is aversive or not by using functional analysis and overwhelmingly head collars are not "constant aversives" (or non-contingent aversives), nor is that how they work. They leverage the handler so that the dog is not reinforced for pulling and is reinforced for coming back to the handler. The front-attaching harnesses work the same way.

Observational bias is a funny thing, if you spend time on a forum where people say these things about head collars you will tend to notice only those dogs who are shut down (or more likely, habituated). The challenge as a critical thinker is to notice all of them. A couple of weeks ago I watched literally hundreds of dogs walk past as my daughter and I waited to use the bike track during the Million Paws Walk, and the biggest problem that I saw was habituation to both check chains and head collars. I didn't see any shut down dogs that I would have attributed to equipment. The majority of dogs on head halters were walking normally, on a loose leash.

I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

That is the intuitive assumption that people make and I suspect that this comes from our culture and not science. The fastest learning occurs where the organism is set up for success and reinforced. A head halter sets the dog up for success then the owner can reinforce (usually with food) the behaviour we want. The biggest problem with the head halter is that it is a "discriminating stimulus" - a cue, i.e the dog becomes "collar wise". I get around this by using a double-ended leash attached to a normal flat collar, gradually you reduce dependence on the head collar to set the dog up for success until you don't rely on it at all, and then you remove it entirely.

You get the same situation with a prong collar or check chain. There really is no advantage in this regard (in fact, there is a disadvantage if you are not using +R also); but as I said before, each piece of equipment has it's pros and cons.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Aidan

[Black Bronson]

IMHO, if you are resorting to management devices, head collars, harnesses etc to stop a dog pulling on leash, the training process is completely wrong. It's not about finding a tool to improve the behaviour it's about setting boundaries and teaching the dog how to walk properly and using a tool that will provide a correction when necessary.

You don't see any contradiction in that at all?

No Aidan, there are training tools and management tools and a difference between the two. Every time someone posts about dogs pulling on leash which I might add isn't a modern trend behaviour, infact leash pulling no doubt would have surfaced way back when the first ever dog was introduced to a leash long before any of posting here were born, but irrespective of that, the harness and head collar suggestions keep flowing. Sure thay can manage the behaviour and lessen the pulling effects, but generally speaking, they don't correct the behaviour, only manage it. Take a harness or head collar off a dog that is managed that way............and it's all over the place most of the time without it.

A dog properly trained to walk nicely shouldn't need a leash at all IMHO

A prong or check chain can be used as management tools also (and often are). In either case people need to train if they want flat collar or off-leash loose-leash walking, we seem to be in agreement on that. The contradiction is that you are also "resorting to a management device" when you use a prong collar or check chain. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, either way you need to train. All tools have pros and cons.

To be honest, I haven't seen too many dogs being managed well with a choker or prong and due to the dog's continual pulling, choking and coughing often leads to the harness and head collar to avoid the choking. The idea of the choker or prong is teach the dog to walk nicely not a management tool for poor behaviour as the harness and head collars are used for. The harness and head collar does work better as a management tool, but doesn't teach the dog as well.

[Black Bronson]

A prong or check chain can be used as management tools also (and often are). In either case people need to train if they want flat collar or off-leash loose-leash walking, we seem to be in agreement on that. The contradiction is that you are also "resorting to a management device" when you use a prong collar or check chain. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, either way you need to train. All tools have pros and cons.

Yes, but a prong collar (or a check chain, martingale etc) has the advantage of being able to give the dog a quick correction only when needed, ie you give the dog a command and he either complies and is rewarded or does not comply and is corrected. It's more precise IMO. Unlike a head collar that works by acting as a constant aversive when it's on and manages the behaviour that way..

I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

Correct The check type system is easily switchable with a distinctive difference between no aversive and corrective action. Head collars and harnesses don't provide the "switching" that the other system provides.

[Aidan]

Head collars and harnesses don't provide the "switching" that the other system provides.

If the dog pulls, the head collar doesn't allow them to gain any benefit from pulling. As soon as they stop pulling, the head collar does nothing (for the majority of dogs). It shouldn't "correct" pulling by way of positive punishment, but why do dogs pull in the first place? If it is no longer reinforced, it soon extinguishes (at least while the halter is on).

[Red Fox]

I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

If you can get periods of not pulling on a correction collar in order to deliver well timed corrections then yes, but quite often this isn't the case, owners can't get the loose lead bursts without professional instruction.

Yes, I do agree that an owner who is having difficulty should always seek instruction from a professional trainer and learn how to give a proper well timed correction to their dog before even attempting to use a correction collar at home. I would never tell someone to jump in and use a correction collar without knowing exactly what they were doing first - the same goes for any training tool though.

And yep, you need to be able to get loose leash bursts to be able to teach llw - but that's not by any means impossible. Even with a dog that pulls continuously you always have that breif period between the dog hitting the end of the leash, you changing direction (ie doing a quick 180 turn) and the dog catching up again before he surges ahead.

I've seen dogs who were perfect on prong collars and terrible when switched over to flat collar as well. You have to have been around in the times when they were commonly used though...makes me sound old haha.

Me too! But I think that if that is what is happening then your training has not been done correctly and you need to go back to basics again

Whether any piece of equipment is a management tool or a behaviour modification tool is entirely up to the handler's attitude.

Yep, I agree

[Red Fox]

Aidan, I'm only going off my own experiences with head collars, nothing to do with what I've read or heard on this forum

I couldn't count the amount of times people have said to me "Oh yeah, the halti is great! My dog calms right down as soon as I put it on, but he goes stupid again when I take it off". Or the amount of dogs I saw plodding along at obedience with their heads down and their haltis on. To me that says it's not changing the behaviour, just managing it. I guess if people were shown the correct method then it wouldn't be such a problem but I think too many people sing the praises of head collars without looking at the bigger picture

I see plenty of dogs wearing them out on their walk every day too. Most of these dogs look happy and I'm sure that their owners are greatful for a tool that allows them to safely walk their dogs. That's not a bad thing at all.

But I still think there are better and more effective ways to train a llw than haltis or harnesses and personally I wouldn't use a head collar on my dog ;)

[Red Fox]

Ooops, double post

Edited June 3, 2010 by SecretKei

[Black Bronson]

Yes, but a prong collar (or a check chain, martingale etc) has the advantage of being able to give the dog a quick correction only when needed, ie you give the dog a command and he either complies and is rewarded or does not comply and is corrected. It's more precise IMO. Unlike a head collar that works by acting as a constant aversive when it's on and manages the behaviour that way..

That seems to be the prevailing opinion on head collars here and it may be true in some cases, but it is certainly not the way a head collar should work. Behaviour analysts figure out if something is aversive or not by using functional analysis and overwhelmingly head collars are not "constant aversives" (or non-contingent aversives), nor is that how they work. They leverage the handler so that the dog is not reinforced for pulling and is reinforced for coming back to the handler. The front-attaching harnesses work the same way.

Observational bias is a funny thing, if you spend time on a forum where people say these things about head collars you will tend to notice only those dogs who are shut down (or more likely, habituated). The challenge as a critical thinker is to notice all of them. A couple of weeks ago I watched literally hundreds of dogs walk past as my daughter and I waited to use the bike track during the Million Paws Walk, and the biggest problem that I saw was habituation to both check chains and head collars. I didn't see any shut down dogs that I would have attributed to equipment. The majority of dogs on head halters were walking normally, on a loose leash.

I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

That is the intuitive assumption that people make and I suspect that this comes from our culture and not science. The fastest learning occurs where the organism is set up for success and reinforced. A head halter sets the dog up for success then the owner can reinforce (usually with food) the behaviour we want. The biggest problem with the head halter is that it is a "discriminating stimulus" - a cue, i.e the dog becomes "collar wise". I get around this by using a double-ended leash attached to a normal flat collar, gradually you reduce dependence on the head collar to set the dog up for success until you don't rely on it at all, and then you remove it entirely.

You get the same situation with a prong collar or check chain. There really is no advantage in this regard (in fact, there is a disadvantage if you are not using +R also); but as I said before, each piece of equipment has it's pros and cons.

Aidan, aren't we trying to re-invent the wheel so to speak???. Leash pulling as I mentioned before is an extremely old behaviour and was easily corrected long before head collars and harnesses were marketed as behavioural management tools. In years gone by, off leash obedience determined a training system's credibility in the days when many people didn't even own a leash and didn't need one obviously prior to leash requirements by law. Considering that loose leash/no leash walking had been acomplished for so many years prior to the head collar/harness marketing tells me that these tools are more a gimmick than a worthwhile necessity for teaching a nice walk. Personally I have trained several cronic harness pullers that people have been working with for 12 months with little gain and established a loose leash walk with a prong collar in 30 minutes.............with the owners totally gob smacked how this could achieved so quickly.

I am really disolusioned by some trainers advice that people have hired to correct leash pulling and they advise a head collar or harness...........what the hell for???. As I also mentioned previously watching some Cesar Millan videos recently regarding cronic pullers, IMHO, Cesar does it right, perfect infact with great results.

[bedazzledx2]

How about teaching before correcting?!!!!

A prong or check chain can be used as management tools also (and often are). In either case people need to train if they want flat collar or off-leash loose-leash walking, we seem to be in agreement on that. The contradiction is that you are also "resorting to a management device" when you use a prong collar or check chain. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, either way you need to train. All tools have pros and cons.

Yes, but a prong collar (or a check chain, martingale etc) has the advantage of being able to give the dog a quick correction only when needed, ie you give the dog a command and he either complies and is rewarded or does not comply and is corrected. It's more precise IMO. Unlike a head collar that works by acting as a constant aversive when it's on and manages the behaviour that way..

I've seen plenty of dogs that will walk perfectly on a halti but as soon as it's taken off they are right back to square one again. I'm sure that you could train llw with practically any tool if you are using the right method but wouldn't a correction collar provide a much clearer picture to the dog of what you are asking for? And therefore learning would be much faster?

[Aidan3]

I am really disolusioned by some trainers advice that people have hired to correct leash pulling and they advise a head collar or harness...........what the hell for???

I'd be disillusioned by any trainer who didn't show the client how to train the dog, I'm not sure what it has to do with the equipment they use? I'm also not sure why you would insist that a head collar is a gimmick just because it is relatively new?

It's quite simple, they give leverage. If the dog is stronger than the owner, they address the power imbalance. That's it. They do not train a dog to walk close to you and neither does a prong collar. You train a dog to walk in close proximity to you using lots and lots of reinforcement - and that goes whether you use positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement. On leash or off-leash.

If someone needs leverage (dog chases cats for e.g) or just needs to take the dog for a walk before they are reliable on a flat collar, you use a head halter. I have a friend who weighs 45kg, her two dogs (now deceased) both almost outweighed her. She used head halters on both dogs every single day. These dogs had obedience titles, had never pulled on the leash problematically, and had excellent off-leash obedience. She was just being pragmatic.

[Cosmolo]

Black Bronson, have you ever met someone that, regardless of the amount of training they have completed, could not use a correction collar properly? Or could not use it to the degree required for their dog?

Front connecting harnesses are a godsend for some of my clients and their dogs. It allows them to control the behaviour enough so that they have something to reinforce, rather than wrestling with the dog all the time.

[Aidan3]

Leash pulling as I mentioned before is an extremely old behaviour and was easily corrected long before head collars and harnesses were marketed as behavioural management tools. In years gone by, off leash obedience determined a training system's credibility in the days when many people didn't even own a leash and didn't need one obviously prior to leash requirements by law. Considering that loose leash/no leash walking had been acomplished for so many years prior to the head collar/harness marketing tells me that these tools are more a gimmick than a worthwhile necessity for teaching a nice walk.

Just in addition to my previous post, it is still quite common to see dogs dragging their owners around as they gasp for air, constricted by the check chain being used incorrectly. I certainly wouldn't say that things were any better in the old days. Putting aside the lack of training aspect, I would rather see this sort of dog in a head halter or harness not pulling than being choked by a chain. At least they are getting walked and everyone is happy.

[bedazzledx2]

I used to use a halti on my Kelpie (she was obedience trained and had her UD title) It was not a training device...it was management. I am a better trainer now and only use a flat collar on my dogs. When I want them to walk nicely and not pull, I put a bit of effort in and remind them of our training (no corrections necessary!) I think its really important to become a good teacher rather than a good trainer. How do dogs know that you don't like pulling? By correcting? That is crappy teaching!!!! (I don't mean you Aiden )

I am really disolusioned by some trainers advice that people have hired to correct leash pulling and they advise a head collar or harness...........what the hell for???

I'd be disillusioned by any trainer who didn't show the client how to train the dog, I'm not sure what it has to do with the equipment they use? I'm also not sure why you would insist that a head collar is a gimmick just because it is relatively new?

It's quite simple, they give leverage. If the dog is stronger than the owner, they address the power imbalance. That's it. They do not train a dog to walk close to you and neither does a prong collar. You train a dog to walk in close proximity to you using lots and lots of reinforcement - and that goes whether you use positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement. On leash or off-leash.

If someone needs leverage (dog chases cats for e.g) or just needs to take the dog for a walk before they are reliable on a flat collar, you use a head halter. I have a friend who weighs 45kg, her two dogs (now deceased) both almost outweighed her. She used head halters on both dogs every single day. These dogs had obedience titles, had never pulled on the leash problematically, and had excellent off-leash obedience. She was just being pragmatic.

[mrs tornsocks]

What was the new swearword - I am always keen for new ones, I use the old ones far too often!

Thanks for the tips and the pm with trainer details.

I haven't tried a clicker, as someone previously mentioned I imagine it would be quite hard managing a clicker, treats and a large boisterous dog. I find it hard just with the dog and the treats!

I do have two dogs (the second is only 5 kgs) and I never walk them together because the large one is so unmanageable.

I have looked at the prong collars online and also the front harnesses so we will see what we can do before we go to a trainer (he is a fantastic dog other this pulling).

What is especially annoying is he used to be perfect on lead...until he was about 1 or 1 and a half and then he became a puller....grrr

I am a massive fan of the gentle leader harness. We tried halti, training, more training and he was pulling like a steam train. The harness has improved him overnight, and now sometimes during the walk, I switch him back to the lead/flat collar combo and he is starting to walk beautifully.

It's the best investment we've made.

[huski]

I used to use a halti on my Kelpie (she was obedience trained and had her UD title) It was not a training device...it was management. I am a better trainer now and only use a flat collar on my dogs. When I want them to walk nicely and not pull, I put a bit of effort in and remind them of our training (no corrections necessary!) I think its really important to become a good teacher rather than a good trainer. How do dogs know that you don't like pulling? By correcting? That is crappy teaching!!!! (I don't mean you Aiden :D )

Bedazzled what method do you use now to teach LLW? What method would you use to teach a dog who had a very serious ingrained pulling habit?

I'm not saying I agree with Black Bronson, but I would never write corrections off altogether... on their own they may be a crappy teaching tool but as part of a whole method I don't think corrections are always a bad thing Even methods like 'be a tree' and the change of direction technique that are commonly use to train LLW are corrective in some way.

[bedazzledx2]

2 things come to mind....

Starting a pup...how easy is that?

Re-training a chronic puller.....management and training. I had a lady in my class recently who insisted her staffy was a chronic puller and the only way she could stop it was to correct.... The dog had become so immune to a collar correction that it didn't even register. I took the dog for a bit and it pulled towards the owner as I knew it would. I stopped and waited and the dog released slightly and looked at me....click treat. Set up again....pull...stop....look...click treat. Set up again....hesitation....click treat. Set up again....total focus...click treat. Okay I know that's not yet a trained behaviour but its the start.

I hate the way that every single time on this list that the question comes up about a dog pulling on lead you can bet that someone will suggest a prong collar. Grrrr!!!!! Apart from the fact that they are illegal in this state and pretty much only available on the internet....why don't people suggest teaching the poor dog rather than correcting?

I used to use a halti on my Kelpie (she was obedience trained and had her UD title) It was not a training device...it was management. I am a better trainer now and only use a flat collar on my dogs. When I want them to walk nicely and not pull, I put a bit of effort in and remind them of our training (no corrections necessary!) I think its really important to become a good teacher rather than a good trainer. How do dogs know that you don't like pulling? By correcting? That is crappy teaching!!!! (I don't mean you Aiden :D )

Bedazzled what method do you use now to teach LLW? What method would you use to teach a dog who had a very serious ingrained pulling habit?

I'm not saying I agree with Black Bronson, but I would never write corrections off altogether... on their own they may be a crappy teaching tool but as part of a whole method I don't think corrections are always a bad thing Even methods like 'be a tree' and the change of direction technique that are commonly use to train LLW are corrective in some way.